50 réponses à ce sujet

[Andromelek]

I've been always curious, clearly Morrigan's behaviour fits with Morgana, but the concept of Witches of the Wilds in general could have been taken from the mesoamerican Nahuals? Nahuals are often portrayed as lonely mages that inhabit remote areas, on a little town or directly deep on forests and jungles, their distinctive mark is exactly being able to shapeshift on animals.

[rpgfan321]

What's presented in the Avvar's shamanism can be found in real life as well. Shamanism is practiced in RL today and in the past long time ago. I know in ancient Korea, Shamanism was the thing before other influences budged that out of the way. Spirits possessing a shaman to foretell a future or knowledge, giving the possessed supernatural powers, warding evil spirits out of homes with talismans and trinkets. I don't know if spirits was seen as "gods" but it was certainly revered and respected that rituals were practiced to not anger them.

[Carmen_Willow]

I've never really understood why the Qun are thought to be based on the Ottoman Empire.    To my mind they have always made me think more of Communism, with Koslun being Karl Marx and the Tome being Das Kapital or The Communist Manifesto.

That is my take as well. Much more in keeping with Communism than Islam - the absence of a god for one thing, the communal nature of child rearing while not employed in the Soviet, is used by Israel's Kibbutzim, no marriage, no parents, property owned by the state and not by individuals, no money within the community itself, yeah, much more in keeping with Communism than the Ottoman Empire.

[Seraphim24]

I feel this may be somewhat low-brow compared to the OP, but I always saw Dragon Age as directly descended from the Forgotten Realms D&D campaign setting, much like a kind of descendant of the actual setting used in Baldur's Gate.

 

For example, the Tevinter Imperium  as the Red Wizards of Thay, Dwarves having strong ancestral ties and respect for clans and such (such as the Paragons and the like) living in underground cities, the wild elves who lost touch with their civilization being akin to the Dalish Elves, and the elves just losing touch with their civilization in general to a degree, the goblins and orcs and ogres are all kind of banded together in DA as basically the darkspawn, the world of Faerun in general geographically in terms of the forest/lake/water mid climate being similar to Fereldan, whether those were in turn inspired by things like the Roman Empire.. can't say.. I was thinking of more immediate connections I guess.

[ilikesocks]

Our suffering.

Noooo! Never! It's not like they'd ever tell us either if say, they wrote a romance for a character just to make it more sad.

Weeeeeeeeekes

[giveamanafish...]

I've never really understood why the Qun are thought to be based on the Ottoman Empire.    To my mind they have always made me think more of Communism, with Koslun being Karl Marx and the Tome being Das Kapital or The Communist Manifesto.

In english it's called "Capital: A Critique of Political Economy", which would mostly be in reference to Adam Smith. This is a clue as to why you are wrong. No offense. Studied it, though its been decades. Barely skimmed the Communist Manifesto, again not a lot in there about principles of behavior, more a call to revolution or at least unionization. There might have been something in the manifesto about the ideal organization of production, possibly by Engels who was a business man and would have an interest in that issue. Capital, or the Grundrise did have a discussion around the distinction between a 'class in itself' and 'class for itself', which might have something to do with the stuff in the Qun about self and reality.

 

I think Gaddafi in Libya might have writen a book that could have been a model for the Tome of Koslun. I would have to say the Quanari are more a combination of the writings of a self-help guru imposed on a mix of the cultural traditions of the Iroquois League and some version of utopian communism.

[demonicdivas]

This is a cool topic. In addition to what's already been mentioned, this might be an obvious one as the Chantry is based on Catholicism. But I always wondered whether the birth of Chantry is based on early Christianity that swept across Western Europe during the Dark Ages (so up to around 800 AD). It was a fascinating time (to me anyway!) where there were actually two distinct types of church emerging - one from Ireland/Scotland (Iona, Lindisfarne, etc) and one from Rome, with Catholicism winning out in the end. Both were quite different.

 

I see similarities from that period of history in the significant differences between the Chantry in Tevinter and southern Thedas.

[phishface]

I've been always curious, clearly Morrigan's behaviour fits with Morgana, but the concept of Witches of the Wilds in general could have been taken from the mesoamerican Nahuals? Nahuals are often portrayed as lonely mages that inhabit remote areas, on a little town or directly deep on forests and jungles, their distinctive mark is exactly being able to shapeshift on animals.

 

That's very interesting - I'd never heard of Nahuals before.

 

The witch of the wilds seems to be a pancultural idea. One of the most famous is Baba Yaga. This witch may well have been the inspiration for Flemeth, both in nature and appearance.

 

For a recent example, here's DC Comics version of the witch:

 

 

But if you do an image search for Baba Yaga, you'll see many other depictions of her that are reminscent of Flemeth (and also many that are not).

 

Baba Yaga isn't a one dimensional evil witch:

 

 

Although she is mostly portrayed as a terrifying old crone, Baba Yaga can also play the role of a helper and wise woman. The Earth Mother, like all forces of nature, though often wild and untamed, can also be kind.

In her guise as wise hag, she sometimes gives advice and magical gifts to heroes and the pure of heart. The hero or heroine of the story often enters the crone's domain searching for wisdom, knowledge and truth. She is all-knowing, all seeing and all-revealing to those who would dare to ask.

She is said to be a guardian spirit of the fountain of the Waters of Life and of Death.

Baba Yaga is the Arch-Crone, the Goddess of Wisdom and Death, the Bone Mother. Wild and untamable, she is a nature spirit bringing wisdom and death of ego, and through death, rebirth.

(Quoted from here)

[QueenCrow]

I've been always curious, clearly Morrigan's behaviour fits with Morgana, but the concept of Witches of the Wilds in general could have been taken from the mesoamerican Nahuals? Nahuals are often portrayed as lonely mages that inhabit remote areas, on a little town or directly deep on forests and jungles, their distinctive mark is exactly being able to shapeshift on animals.

 

Bringing more to you from the Northern Germanic world:

 

The Vanir goddess Freyja was a shapeshifter.  Everytime Morrigan shifts into a raven, I see Freyja.

 

Also, one of my favorite witches from legend is Princess Skuld.  I believe DA Morrigan is elf-blooded, especially after the Temple of Mythal (just my guess), which is why elf-blooded Skuld might fit too, along with Baba Yaga and others.

 

 

A group of Elves showed up in the middle of the night, dropped a young girl off on Helgi's doorstep, and placed a totally gnarly curse on the King and his family forever.

 

That curse was Skuld.

 

The sagas say that Skuld was, "by evil norns ill created," and as such she grew up learning all the bastardly dark arts you might expect from a woman whose primary goal in life was to hone her magic to the point where she could obliterate entire civilizations just by thinking really mean things about people until their heads caught on fire.  

 

http://www.badassoft....com/skuld.html

[Andromelek]

Bringing more to you from the Northern Germanic world:
 
The Vanir goddess Freyja was a shapeshifter.  Everytime Morrigan shifts into a raven, I see Freyja.
 
Also, one of my favorite witches from legend is Princess Skuld.  I believe DA Morrigan is elf-blooded, especially after the Temple of Mythal (just my guess), which is why elf-blooded Skuld might fit too, along with Baba Yaga and others.

Thanks I didn't knew Freyja was shapeshifter too, I only remembered Loki, although I didn't count him because he also was able to adopt many humanoids forms and even change gender, I guess I forgot Fafnir's brother too.

[QueenCrow]

Last night, I was reading The Book of Lost Tales by Tolkein.  In it - the idea that Elves retired to Valinor to sleep that is connected to immortality.  Children of Middle Earth could visit the elves in their dreams.  The sleeping elves visited children who had been scolded by day through dreams in order to comfort them.

 

There's no doubt in my mind that this is the inspiration for uthenera and dreamers.

[Dorrieb]

George R. R. Martin, very obviously.

[AFA]

George R. R. Martin, very obviously.

 

Once Game of Thrones came out, the ASoIaF references pretty much disappeared, I am guessing to keep new fans of the games and show from crying "ripoff!"

 

The Qunari are pretty obviously an amalgamation of the various Muslim kingdoms of the Middle Ages, including the Caliphate and the Ottomans.

 

Andraste is Mohammed, Joan of Arc, Jesus, and Boudica all rolled into one. 

 

Dwarves are the Roman Empire, just underground.

[QueenCrow]

George R. R. Martin, very obviously.

It's plain as vanilla that George R. R. Martin is heavily influenced by J. R. R. Tolkien.  And Tolkien's stories borrow, sometimes verbatim, from the Poetic and Prose Eddas, Norse, Anglo-Saxon and Finnish stories.

 

That's what we human beings do.  We remix good stories and tell them over and over.

[Andromelek]

It's plain as vanilla that George R. R. Martin is heavily influenced by J. R. R. Tolkien. And Tolkien's stories borrow, sometimes verbatim, from the Poetic and Prose Eddas, Norse, Anglo-Saxon and Finnish stories.

That's what we human beings do. We remix good stories and tell them over and over.

And the interesting thing comes when you track the original source of inspiration, it turns to be nature herself, a Protoceratops skull is seemingly what inspired Gryphons, Narvals unicorns, Lobster/Squid Kraken, etc.

[QueenCrow]

And the interesting thing comes when you track the original source of inspiration, it turns to be nature herself, a Protoceratops skull is seemingly what inspired Gryphons, Narvals unicorns, Lobster/Squid Kraken, etc.

Execellent point!  It makes sense too - someone finds a dinosaur skull and imagination says...Dragon.

[Silcron]

Of course you can however I will explain myself, I didn't mean that Tevinter is Spain, I was pointing out that Ottomans conquered Spain for a time while Qunari conquered Tevinter, perhaps I should have used Ottomans taking over Jerusalem instead?
And Antiva is a merge of Spain and Italy, judging for their accent.

Well, what didn't conquer my country historically? At least they weren't inspired by our 19th Century history. (Example, king and son are fighting over the throne. They go to Napoleon to solve it. He gives each a ton of cash and a castle, sits his brother on the spanish throne.)

And they may have been inspired by Spain but I see antivans closer to "gitanos" (I'm using the spanish term, I don't know the enlgish one.) If anything medieval Spain is closer to the Chantry (religious fanatism, crusades, the Inquisition.) unless you're counting the 800 years of Al-Andalus, which I don't think come to mind when people think of medieval Spain, because for the catholic fanatism even ties into Columbus, seeing as the monarchs who sent him had the self procaimed title of "Reyes Católicos."

[AFA]

I always saw the Teventer homeland as Greece, with the pre-Andraste Imperium being a combination of the Roman Republic and various Greek empires (Mycean, Macedonian). It is definitely the Byzantine Empire after Andraste. 

[Dorrieb]

It's plain as vanilla that George R. R. Martin is heavily influenced by J. R. R. Tolkien.  And Tolkien's stories borrow, sometimes verbatim, from the Poetic and Prose Eddas, Norse, Anglo-Saxon and Finnish stories.

 

That's what we human beings do.  We remix good stories and tell them over and over.

 

Who said otherwise?

 

That being said, Terry Pratchett used to say that everything everyone has ever written is like a big gumbo pot from which you're supposed to take a bit and then add a bit. You are NOT supposed to just take whatever you want and then say, 'Hey, look everyone, I made a really good gumbo!' There's a difference between being influenced by others and copying their answers to a different test.

[phishface]

Who said otherwise?

 

That being said, Terry Pratchett used to say that everything everyone has ever written is like a big gumbo pot from which you're supposed to take a bit and then add a bit. You are NOT supposed to just take whatever you want and then say, 'Hey, look everyone, I made a really good gumbo!' There's a difference between being influenced by others and copying their answers to a different test.

 

T.S. Eliot once wrote "Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal." The same sentiment has been attributed to William Faulkner, Igor Stravinsky, and Pablo Picasso. Then again, what did they know?

[Dorrieb]

T.S. Eliot once wrote "Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal." The same sentiment has been attributed to William Faulkner, Igor Stravinsky, and Pablo Picasso. Then again, what did they know?

 

Not so. The essay in which Eliot supposedly says that, actually says this:

 

One of the surest tests [of the superiority or inferiority of a poet] is the way in which a poet borrows. Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different than that from which it is torn; the bad poet throws it into something which has no cohesion. A good poet will usually borrow from authors remote in time, or alien in language, or diverse in interest.

 

So no, Eliot did not say that 'mature poets steal', and someone actually took the time to debunk that silliness, as you can see here: https://nancyprager....at-poets-steal/

 

In fact, Eliot was saying pretty much the same thing that Pratchett said later, albeit in a different way... which is good, because otherwise the irony would be crushing. Anyway, common sense should inform you that no real artist is going to claim that it all comes down to ctrl-c + ctrl-v.

[phishface]

One of the surest tests [of the superiority or inferiority of a poet] is the way in which a poet borrows. Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different than that from which it is torn; the bad poet throws it into something which has no cohesion. A good poet will usually borrow from authors remote in time, or alien in language, or diverse in interest.

 

So no, Eliot did not say that 'mature poets steal'

 

Huh? Um, yes he did. The precise phrase is right there in the quotation you posted. Like, the exact three words...

[Dorrieb]

Huh? Um, yes he did. The precise phrase is right there in the quotation you posted. Like, the exact three words...

 

Is the notion of 'context' alien to you?

[phishface]

Is the notion of 'context' alien to you?

 

Wow. Ok, I really don't want to get into an argument about this, so will this do? He never said it, I was both wrong and a fool, I'm sorry.

 

The internet's a funny place. You jokingly mention something you vaguely remember from an essay you read (unwillingly) in university, and a complete stranger picks up on it, turns to Google to refute you with a link to some obscure website which really can't have been easy to find, and then it all becomes this Very Important Point Of Principle. Better to run away and never look back, I reckon, which is what I'm gonna do right n

[Dorrieb]

I apologise for my hostility. I did not intend for it to come across quite that harshly. It's a subject that matters a lot to those of us who did not read Eliot 'unwillingly', because we actually enjoy and care about art. As for the website being 'difficult to find', I googled 'mature poets steal' and it was the second link down, so not really that much of an effort.