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[InfinitePaths]

(SPOILERS FOR THE MASKED EMPIRE)

 

 

Personally, I am shocked by the amount of people who admire and like Gaspard as a character and support what he's doing. Therefore, I am creating a discussion in hopes of illuminating my lack of knowledge and having some decent, civil discussion.

 

In this thread, I would like to make my point by adressing two things:

 

1.) Each characther's recent actions and justifications for them

2.) Their values and plans to rule the Empire.

 

 

Each characther's recent actions and justifications for them

 

 

So, let's start of with Gaspard who:

 

1.) Wants to start a war which will result in countless deaths of soldiers, break the empire apart in two pieces and cause immense suffering? Why? Because he wants to rule and invade other nations. There is literally no reason for him to sit on the Orlesian throne. He himself knows Celene is better at managing the Empire and leading it to new cultural and academic fronteirs. But he is ready to burn the Empire down to be in control.

 

2.) Puts Celene in a position terrorists put other people when they negotiate with them. "Give me the money or I will detonate the bomb" " Marry me, or I will invade the entire Empire and start a war. " and then her blamed her for the lack of peace in the empire. WTF?

 

His reasons are selfish, he lusts for power and wants war.

 

Celene who is:

 

1.) Completely dedicated to improving the empire. We have many chapters from her point of view and her utmost goal is to improve the empire from a cultural, academic, economic and social perspective by supporting academies, elven rights etc. In fact, she is so incredibly capable of doing this, that she claimed the throne at the age of 16, and rose it to great heights from the horrible state her uncle left it in.

 

2.) Wants peace in the Empire. She even compromises her power and influence for peace, because she doesn't want to see the people of Orlais suffer. When hunting in the woods in TME, after Gaspard had attacked her, she knew that she could call her soldiers and capture him when the hunting dogs were approaching them, but she also knew that capturing Gaspard would start a civil war over night; because his supporters would rebel, which would result in a great amount of her people dying for nothing. So she even sacrificed her own position to prevent inner conflict.

 

 

Their values and plans to rule the Empire.

 

Gaspard:

 

His entire plan is to go to war with Ferelden because it "strengthens the empire". He would bring back the Empire back to the days of savegary where killing the most people of your neighbouring countries meant you held the most power. Additionaly, he has a sick perverted "moral code of honor" which is completely racist towards elves and sexist, causing him to have "honor" towards his Orlesian chevaliers and opponents, but he still considers elves lesser people and thinks Celene is "fierce for a woman". He would do nothing to improve the moral state of people in his Empire, or better the Orlais in any meaningful way, aside from war.

 

Celene: 

 

As mentioned previously, she longs for peace, diplomacy, cultural improvement, education and equal rights for elves. She knows how to rule the empire, and has a solid vision for the future. She is also a cruel, cold player of the game who did horrible things to get where she is now, but regardless of her personal, bloody rise to power, she has a bright vision and goal for Orlais which she is successfully creating. Unlike war and brutality Gaspard strives towards. His wars would cause a thousand times more deaths, than a few assassinations made by bards and nobles.

 

I am really interested to hear your perspectives on this, especially from the people who support Gaspard, as I absolutely despise the man and everything he does.

[Qun00]

Both of them are horrible people, but Celene gains a few extra evil points for genocide.

[InfinitePaths]

Both of them are horrible people, but Celene gains a few extra evil points for genocide.

 

Do you really think Gaspard wouldn't slaughter any elves who defied him? He would gladly enjoy it too, asserting his dominence.

 

Celene killed the elves ONLY because Gaspard pressured bullied her into a position where she had to.

 

EDIT:

 

Celene, if she remained the ruler of Orlais, would at least TRY to make the world a better place for the elves.

[maia0407]

I found the whole Winter Palace quest confusing as I didn't read the book. I just didn't have enough information on any of the characters to care about any of them. I hope Bioware doesn't continue this trend of having the books so heavily impact main plots.

 

ETA: So, from my limited knowledge, I just go with Celene as allowing her to be assassinated is just too brutal. I just don't have a good reason to let it happen as my character and I aren't aware of the events in the book. I've allowed one character to choose Gaspard just to have a world state with that decision and it made me like her a lot less.

[arelenriel]

Personally if it was an option- I'd kill both of them- and remove the power (AKA money and political strength- no killing) of any Orlesian nobles who did not demonstrate empathy towards all the people of Orlais and put Briala in charge- she is the only one who does not seem determined to a.) commit genocide which both Gaspard who hates elves- and Celene who will do anything to remain in power are, and b.) drag the nation into war with Fereldan/Antiva/Navarra/Rivain/The Free Marches/Tevinter/The Avaar/The Elves/The Qunari and well anyone else who exists in Thedas which Gaspard will do. Yes she has ulterior motives in that she wants vengeance for her parents deaths and the deaths at Halamshiral and power and equality for elves- but she does not want to commit genocide or murder knife the residents of every other nation in Thedas

[InfinitePaths]

I found the whole Winter Palace quest confusing as I didn't read the book. I just didn't have enough information on any of the characters to care about any of them. I hope Bioware doesn't continue this trend of having the books so heavily impact main plots.

 

I agree.

 

If I didn't read the book, I would know nothing about these people when playing DA:I lol. 

[vertigomez]

I read TME before I played DAI, so... they're both despicable. But from an in-game standpoint, I tend to go with Celene. Because Bhelen.

But I don't think it's fair to say Gaspard "bullied" Celene into burning Halamshiral. LOLNO. He mocked her relationship with her elven lover and her immediate response was genocide. She's a horrible person.

[themikefest]

In every playthrough, I've chosen Celene. If I was to read the book, I might choose someone else.

[MisterJB]

 

You make a good showing of Celene's positives but fail to mention her negatives. You accuse Gaspard of being a warmongerer, which is true, but do not mention how Celene intended to marry Cailan and turn Ferelden into a subordinate state in order to face Nevarra and Tevinter.

 

Likewise, there are positives to a more martial Orlais and Gaspard's honor is something to admire, even if it does not conform to your own morality.

 

 

[Mrs_Stick]

I did not read the book so when I got to the winter palace I just listened to my Advisors and decided to go with Gaspard because hey Cullen suggested it and I was romancing him. Did not turn out well in the end so next round I left Gaspard on the throne and Briala ruling from the shadows. A bit of a better ending. (Trespasser not included) I really have no choice I like better honestly I would prefer to just burn down the palace with all the back stabbing Nobles but hey its The Game right?

[InfinitePaths]

He mocked her relationship with her elven lover and her immediate response was genocide. She's a horrible person.

 

In Orlais, the social mocking way a symbol of all the things the nobles did not support about Celene's rule. It was a mockery of her percieved "weekness". This meant that all the racist nobles were ready to rise up against Celine on the claims of her being an "elf lover".

 

Also, it wasn't a mindless genoide. The elves rebelled and used weapons to openly cause chaos. Was it justified for the elves to rebel? Absolutely! Do I understand Celene's position? Also, absolutely.

 

Anyways, regardless of her morally ambigous actions, she would still fight for elven rights after she remained on the throne, because it's something she stands for. Gaspard treats them as 2nd class citizens who should "know their place".

[MisterJB]

I read TME before I played DAI, so... they're both despicable. But from an in-game standpoint, I tend to go with Celene. Because Bhelen.

But I don't think it's fair to say Gaspard "bullied" Celene into burning Halamshiral. LOLNO. He mocked her relationship with her elven lover and her immediate response was genocide. She's a horrible person.

 

She killed the elves who were rebelling against her rule and suddenly, that is genocide?

She did not even wipe out every elf in Halamshiral, much less Orlais.
 

[vertigomez]

In Orlais, the social mocking way a symbol of all the things the nobles did not support about Celene's rule. It was a mockery of her percieved "weekness". This meant that all the racist nobles were ready to rise up against Celine on the claims of her being an "elf lover".
 
Also, it wasn't a mindless genoide. The elves rebelled and used weapons to openly cause chaos? Was it justified for the elves to rebel? Absolutely! Do I understand Celene's position? Also, absolutely.
 
Anyways, regardless of her morally ambigous actions, she would still fight for elven rights after she remained on the throne, because it's something she stands for. Gaspard treats them as 2nd class citizens who should "know their place".

I understand her motivation. I just don't think it's justified. The elves were rebelling (not terribly successfully) because Orlesians were chopping them into pieces and hanging their bodies in the streets.

Gaspard's mockery was, "haha look how soft you are on elves, you're practically in bed with them!" and Celene's reaction was, "OH YOU THINK I LIKE ELVES DO YOU?? MURDER THEM ALLLLL!!!"

[InfinitePaths]

 

 

 Gaspard's honor is something to admire, even if it does not conform to your own morality.

 

 

 

Well, I obviously don't admire something I think is morally sick.

 

Being respectful only to selective people, and a complete scumbag to other people is something that should be shamed, not admired.

 

Calling yourself honorable, and finding identity in it, while completely justifying and romanticizing wars, which cause the little people to starve, freeze, be killed etc. is horrible, not admirable.

 

But, yeah, that's my own morality, feel free to like him if you want. I do like hearing other people's perspective, after all that's why I created this thread, even if I strongly disagree.

[MisterJB]

I understand her motivation. I just don't think it's justified. The elves were rebelling (not terribly successfully) because Orlesians were chopping them into pieces and hanging their bodies in the streets.

Gaspard's mockery was, "haha look how soft you are on elves, you're practically in bed with them!" and Celene's reaction was, "OH YOU THINK I LIKE ELVES DO YOU?? MURDER THEM ALLLLL!!!"

 

The elves were barricading portions of the city and murdering innocent guardsmen and merchants.

 

And it was rebellion! What was she supposed to do? Give in to their demands?

They did not even have demands! They were trying to kick every human out of Halamshiral.
 

[vertigomez]

She killed the elves who were rebelling against her rule and suddenly, that is genocide?
She did not even wipe out every elf in Halamshiral, much less Orlais.

I think it'd be different if she just went after combatants. She didn't.

[MisterJB]

Well, I obviously don't admire something I think is morally sick.

 

Being respectful only to selective people, and a complete scumbag to other people is something that should be shamed, not admired.

 

Calling yourself honorable, and finding identity in it, while completely justifying and romanticizing wars, which cause the little people to starve, freeze, be killed etc. is horrible, not admirable.

 

But, yeah, that's my own morality, feel free to like him if you want. I do like hearing other people's perspective, after all that's why I created this thread, even if I strongly disagree.

I am not saying that I agree with everything in the Chevalier's code but there are good things in it and adherence to them is admirable.

War is sometimes necessary. It is unpleasant, certainly, but pacifists do not survive in the world, let alone build empires.

Which is not to say that I don't admire many of Celene's efforts.

 

I don't have a clear favorite between the two. I tend towards choosing Celene, however.
 

[MisterJB]

In Orlais, the social mocking way a symbol of all the things the nobles did not support about Celene's rule. It was a mockery of her percieved "weekness". This meant that all the racist nobles were ready to rise up against Celine on the claims of her being an "elf lover".

He had a point.

Celene was in bed with an elf who was influencing her decisions.

 

[thesuperdarkone2]

I think it'd be different if she just went after combatants. She didn't.

And you do realize Gaspard does EXACTLY THE SAME THING? Remember when he pretty much boasts that people will accept him once he executed people and his ending pretty much says he violently crushes any attempts at revolt? Why give Celene crap for doing the exact same things Gaspard does? At least Celene tried to seek an alternative by killing the noble inciting the revolt.

[Barquiel]

I always reunite Celene and Briala. I mean, Celene is far from a saint, but she brought the empire back from the brink of collapse and seems to be capable of genuinely caring for her people. Looking back at her whole reign she brought peace, wealth, education and less oppression for the elves (Briala being raised to noble status should improve this further), which is better than whatever Gaspard is promising. Sure, he is (sometimes) honorable when fighting. But in all other things he plays the game as dirty, if not dirtier than Celene....and he simply doesn't offer anything. The only positive thing about him is that he no longer wants to invade Ferelden, but this question doesn't even arise with Briala and Celene.

And people need stop referring to Celene's actions as genocide. She committed an atrocity, yes...but stopping the rebellion was not genocide. Those elves were in open rebellion and killing humans. Other monarchs would have done exactly the same.

After that, Celene’s greatest concern was troops losing discipline and turning the night’s work into a celebration. The elves lived in these slums, Celene knew, and with nowhere to turn, they would be vicious if given the chance. She rode along, protected but present, and snapped orders to the men when they seemed inclined to rush into a building for easy looting. They marched through the elven slums with military precision, and when they rode back out, the section claimed by the rebels was burning behind them.

That's not the behaviour of someone who tries to commit genocide.

[Steelcan]

Gaspard is the one true emperor, bend the knee or he'll destroy you where you stand

[MisterJB]

 

Above everything, Celene deserves a tremendous amount of respect for her efforts towards revitalizing Orlesian art and literature and extablishing the most prestigious institutions of learning in the world and opening them to commoners.

 

Briala is just poison, however.

 

 

[vertigomez]

And you do realize Gaspard does EXACTLY THE SAME THING? Remember when he pretty much boasts that people will accept him once he executed people and his ending pretty much says he violently crushes any attempts at revolt? Why give Celene crap for doing the exact same things Gaspard does? At least Celene tried to seek an alternative by killing the noble inciting the revolt.

Wut? I think Gaspard's a shithead too.

[MisterJB]

 

You know, Celene herself reflects, in the book, how Briala's wishes for the elves would likely tear Orlais apart.

[Xilizhra]

 

 

You know, Celene herself reflects, in the book, how Briala's wishes for the elves would likely tear Orlais apart.

 

And then recants in the game, so there we are.