160 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

I am a person who never like Orlais and want to execute Ceine, Florianne, Gaspar and Brialla together with son of Prosper-Syril de Montmort and all Chivaliers and bards....i never need them and never wanted their sh*t dances, make-ups and "games", i never want to have any alliances with peolpes such as they are

 

I would rather burn Orlais sh*t to its deep core and give it lands to elves, avvars, nevarra and ferelden(i am not care about Teagan i was cared about Connor once and kill his Orlais mother but he was not go study in Tevinter and not become a man who will reform ferelden, he was become a brainwashed stupid chantry loyalist)

 

I was care only about elven rebelions(and devs does not give us to make alliance with them) but not with Briala or someone like her in charge

 

They all deserve to die and Orlais with their Drakkon dynasty and Chivaliers deserve to be destroyed with their Orlais Chantry and seekers with templars, after masked empire and other books and what i see in 3 games i am all for this

 

so i kill Celine and Florianne and there will be no Celine reunion with Brialla and Brialla will be forced for all her pity life to do a good things for elves what she can and fight with old mindless Gaspar who would fail and he will not have any support except his peacock chivalier sh*t....elves, nevarra, ferelden and tevinter as enemies would make "his" empire crushed very soon

 

I was have alliance with mages and make a mage as divine, even if she is one of the such mages what i would like to kill with templars and i rather ban and crush chantry influence to make any new divine or put someone from mages rebellions but even her is enought for a start and i am sure that next divine and many priest will be another mages soon

I'm not sure where to start with this mess

[thesuperdarkone2]

To put an end to the effing Game and the disgusting corruption in Orlais that the empress helped to perpetuate.

If Drakon couldn't do it, what makes you think Gaspard will?

[Asdrubael Vect]

I'm not sure where to start with this mess

Thedas have a mess and this mess is split to

 

Orlais empire with their Drakkon dynasty. chivaliers and bards

 

Orlais Chantry with their seekers and templars

 

Qunari

 

And i am purge Thedas from this pathetic sh*t=)

[Steelcan]

Thedas have a mess and this mess is split to

 

Orlais empire with their Drakkon dynasty. chivaliers and bards

 

Orlais Chantry with their seekers and templars

 

Qunari

 

And i am purge Thedas from this pathetic sh*t=)

Drakkon's dynasty died out ages ago though...

 

the current dynasty are the Valmonts or the de Chalons

[Asdrubael Vect]

Drakkon's dynasty died out ages ago though...

 

the current dynasty are the Valmonts or the de Chalons

they are claimed to be descendants and relatives of Drakkons, i am sure that Drakkon will not ave any childrens if he would know what his son and other of his bloodline do

[ModernAcademic]

If Drakon couldn't do it, what makes you think Gaspard will?

 

Corruption in itself will never end. It's an intrinsic part of politics.

 

HOWEVER, there are govts. where corruption is so extensive it has become institucionalized (in Brazil, for instance) and govts. where corruption is so foreign to the local culture that the govt goes to great lenghts to combat it (Norway, Finland, asf).

 

My belief is that Gaspard will implement a NEW kind of govt. with very clear political directives, that converge toward improving Orlais and turning it into a great nation once again. And for that, he'll submit the nobles by any means necessary, even by force, since he mentions to the Inquisitor that he would resort to beheading anyone who disagrees with this principle. 

 

Celene was lenient toward corruption because she herself rose to power through corrupted means. She promised many favours to the members of the Council of Heralds in return for the crown.

I live in a corrupted country where the practice of such politics is common. I cannot put into words the social devastation and the state of calamity my country is because of this kind of politics that's been going on for DECADES. So NO, I don't sympathize with Celene in the least and ALWAYS place Gaspard on the throne. Which is why the Game thrived under her leadership and shall not do so under Gaspard's rule.

 

You simply can't build a great nation when nobles are always resorting to schemes in order to take what others have. You need people ready to take risks, set selfish interests aside for a moment and apply their resources in favor of investments that will yield results in the future for the nation, not only for the individual. Something only a competent govt. is capable of doing.

[Xilizhra]

I don't see how you can claim that Celene rose to power through corruption when the only claim either one could have is a loose hereditary one; they were fairly even, and Celene just was better at convincing the Council of Heralds that her claim was better. The Council is supposed to decide in situations like this.

[sniper_arrow]

Sadly, that might never be so. Drakon himself, who was a lot more ruthless then Gaspard, couldn't put an end to the game, wich he hated himself. The game might as well only end when Orlais fall.

 

Once Orlais falls, New Orlais shall rise!

[Steelcan]

I don't see how you can claim that Celene rose to power through corruption when the only claim either one could have is a loose hereditary one; they were fairly even, and Celene just was better at convincing the Council of Heralds that her claim was better. The Council is supposed to decide in situations like this.

and there was a ready conclusion, one was the heir apparent, trained from a young age, and the eldest

 

the other was not

[Lumix19]

and there was a ready conclusion, one was the heir apparent, trained from a young age, and the eldest
 
the other was not

I don't think that sentiment exists in Orlais, you win the Game or you don't, and at that time Gaspard did not.

Besides wasn't his uncle on the Council? If you can't get your own family to support your claim that's kind of an indicator you're not fit for rulership.

[Carmen_Willow]

I agree with an earlier poster that having decisions in the game rely heavily on a book you may not have read is rather unfair of Bioware. Aside from that, I see no reason to assassinate Celene in favor of her cousin, especially since he wants to declare war on Ferelden, AGAIN.

 

Putting Briala in charge of the empire would be political suicide for the Inquisition as well as for the elves themselves. On the other hand, it would be the one thing that would unite the Celene and Gaspard factions immediately. Instant rebellion, mass slaughter of the elves, more civil war - bad idea, especially when you need the Empire to fight Cory.

[ModernAcademic]

I don't see how you can claim that Celene rose to power through corruption when the only claim either one could have is a loose hereditary one; they were fairly even, and Celene just was better at convincing the Council of Heralds that her claim was better. The Council is supposed to decide in situations like this.

 

Friend, read between the lines. She wasn't more convincing than Gaspard. She promised them favors. Otherwise, they'd never give her the crown. 

 

No, they were not even. Gaspard was the eldest. He was brought up to be emperor. His family clearly signalled to all of Orlais it was their desire for the boy to sit on the throne. The crown was rightfully his.

 

And then, what did Celene do? She sought the Council when Gaspard was away. So that she could make her move without him being able to stop her. Her intentions were dishonest from the start. 

 

Do you really think politics are based on meritocracy? That leaders are chosen because candidate A is a better person than candidate B? Candidate A is preferred because his supporters stand to gain more from him than from B.

 

The Council had a moral obligation to Gaspard that they chose to neglect. Do you really think that "a simple talk" from Celene convinced anyone to rethink their position? No claim of hers was right for any reason. And then, suddenly, Gaspard returns and finds out that, during his absence, the Council suddenly decided she has the better claim. Oh, my. What. A. Surprise.

 

 

 

That's how politics work. I'm not a dev, and the game doesn't provide much insight on this matter, and on a lot of others. So I interpret the political situation in Orlais and Celene's staged coup according to my limited knowledge of the nature of politics. And if I've learned anything, it's that at the heart of any sudden political change lies an exchange of favors done in secrecy. 

 

 

 

If you still have any doubt, compare the Epilogue of Celene with that of Gaspard. celene is surrounded by whisperers who gossip. Gaspard is surrounded by chevaliers. What do you think the gossipers represent? Blackmail, secret dealings and hidden alliances. That is to say, the dirty side of politics, which goes on in Celene's rule.

[Xilizhra]

Friend, read between the lines. She wasn't more convincing than Gaspard. She promised them favors. Otherwise, they'd never give her the crown. 

 

No, they were not even. Gaspard was the eldest. He was brought up to be emperor. His family clearly signalled to all of Orlais it was their desire for the boy to sit on the throne. The crown was rightfully his.

 

And then, what did Celene do? She sought the Council when Gaspard was away. So that she could make her move without him being able to stop her. Her intentions were dishonest from the start. 

 

Do you really think politics are based on meritocracy? That leaders are chosen because candidate A is a better person than candidate B? Candidate A is preferred because his supporters stand to gain more from him than from B.

 

The Council had a moral obligation to Gaspard that they chose to neglect. Do you really think that "a simple talk" from Celene convinced anyone to rethink their position? No claim of hers was right for any reason. And then, suddenly, Gaspard returns and finds out that, during his absence, the Council suddenly decided she has the better claim. Oh, my. What. A. Surprise.

 

 

 

That's how politics work. I'm not a dev, and the game doesn't provide much insight on this matter, and on a lot of others. So I interpret the political situation in Orlais and Celene's staged coup according to my limited knowledge of the nature of politics. And if I've learned anything, it's that at the heart of any sudden political change lies an exchange of favors done in secrecy. 

 

 

 

If you still have any doubt, compare the Epilogue of Celene with that of Gaspard. celene is surrounded by whisperers who gossip. Gaspard is surrounded by chevaliers. What do you think the gossipers represent? Blackmail, secret dealings and hidden alliances. That is to say, the dirty side of politics, which goes on in Celene's rule.

Why in Hell would the Council of Heralds have a moral obligation to support Gaspard? I'm not saying that Celene is a good person or that her governance is legitimate, but birthright is no more legitimate than backroom politicking as a means of selecting a ruler; in any case, all chevaliers are evil murderers, as can be seen with their initiation rite in TME, so Celene looks better even there.

[sniper_arrow]

I haven't read TME, but why wouldn't Celene and Gaspard get married for political purposes, other than the whole "they're related" reason?

[thesuperdarkone2]

I haven't read TME, but why wouldn't Celene and Gaspard get married for political purposes, other than the whole "they're related" reason?

Mainly because it was a threat. If someone told you to sleep with them or they'd burn your house down, would you instantly accept?

It was clearly a threat. In what world does "he threatened her and she refused, so it's her fault" logic ever seem acceptable?

[Colonelkillabee]

Why? Because Gaspard isn't a weak ***** that just wants to throw parties all day while burning alienages when pretending to befriend elves for political reasons. I'll take a military man over a politician any day. Screw Orlesian hoity toitiness and frilly cakes, we're at war here.

 

He still dislikes elves, but at least he's honest about it.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Why? Because Gaspard isn't a weak ***** that just wants to throw parties all day while burning alienages when pretending to befriend elves for political reasons. I'll take a military man over a politician any day. Screw Orlesian hoity toitiness and frilly cakes, we're at war here.

He still dislikes elves, but at least he's honest about it.

And after the war is over?

[Colonelkillabee]

And after the war is over?

Would still take a military man over a politician. And he can be talked out of fighting Ferelden, so it works still. Celene can take a dirt nap for all I care.

[Da'asha]

I played DAI before I read TME, and I didn't really want to put either on the throne when I did that, but I was fooled by the way Gaspard was portrayed as a villain, so I let Celene keep the throne while still letting Gaspard live since I had no real reason to want him dead any more than I wanted her dead.  Now that I've read it, I don't necessarily think Gaspard is a better person, but I like him better.  He at least has some code of honor, even if it's misguided (and I detest Chevaliers).  Celene has no code.  She's willing to kill, lie, and cheat and lacks any loyalty, even to those she supposedly "loves."  I don't really want either of them on the throne for the long term, but at least with Gaspard, you know where you stand.  He won't bullshit you and won't betray you.  Celene will use you for her purposes and throw you away.  Also, for as much as she says she's awesome at the Game, she sort of sucks at it.  Especially in regards to the whole Halamshiral thing.  Like, come on, Celene.  There's no middle ground between being in bed with the elves and burning them all?  Use your noggin, sweetheart.

 

From a gameplay standpoint, after that first game, I will always blackmail the three of them and make them work together.  For one, the petty part of me likes to humble them, especially when I'm playing as an elf and have a good reason to hate all three.  Also, the three of them trying to work together will get nothing done, but as the leader of the inquisition, that's exactly what I want.  I want them at an impasse, keeping the status quo and relative "peace" since the civil war is over, and not screwing things up for the time being so that I can have the time to fix the current issue with the giant hole in the sky.  And I want them in my pocket so I can get exactly what I need from them without an argument.  It's not a great long term option, but none of them are.

 

Also, after reading TME, I will never reunite Celene and Briala.  Celene is awful and toxic, and I can't do that to Briala.

[Lady Artifice]

I don't see how you can claim that Celene rose to power through corruption when the only claim either one could have is a loose hereditary one; they were fairly even, and Celene just was better at convincing the Council of Heralds that her claim was better. The Council is supposed to decide in situations like this.

 

"Just" better? I was under the impression there was a bit of bloodshed involved as well. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

I wonder if anyone's position has changed after the trespasser dlc

[TK514]

Well, we blame it on Gaspard because he's the one who started it.

 

Never would have happened had Celene been the Empress her supporters claim she is.  A ruler who puts her empire into a state where civil war is possible can not be held blameless.  Gaspard didn't go to war alone.  He had the support of people who felt that Celene was doing a ****** poor job.

[dgcatanisiri]

I played DAI before I read TME, and I didn't really want to put either on the throne when I did that, but I was fooled by the way Gaspard was portrayed as a villain, so I let Celene keep the throne while still letting Gaspard live since I had no real reason to want him dead any more than I wanted her dead.  Now that I've read it, I don't necessarily think Gaspard is a better person, but I like him better.  He at least has some code of honor, even if it's misguided (and I detest Chevaliers).  Celene has no code.  She's willing to kill, lie, and cheat and lacks any loyalty, even to those she supposedly "loves."  I don't really want either of them on the throne for the long term, but at least with Gaspard, you know where you stand.  He won't bullshit you and won't betray you.  Celene will use you for her purposes and throw you away.  Also, for as much as she says she's awesome at the Game, she sort of sucks at it.  Especially in regards to the whole Halamshiral thing.  Like, come on, Celene.  There's no middle ground between being in bed with the elves and burning them all?  Use your noggin, sweetheart.

 

From a gameplay standpoint, after that first game, I will always blackmail the three of them and make them work together.  For one, the petty part of me likes to humble them, especially when I'm playing as an elf and have a good reason to hate all three.  Also, the three of them trying to work together will get nothing done, but as the leader of the inquisition, that's exactly what I want.  I want them at an impasse, keeping the status quo and relative "peace" since the civil war is over, and not screwing things up for the time being so that I can have the time to fix the current issue with the giant hole in the sky.  And I want them in my pocket so I can get exactly what I need from them without an argument.  It's not a great long term option, but none of them are.

 

Also, after reading TME, I will never reunite Celene and Briala.  Celene is awful and toxic, and I can't do that to Briala.

 

Yeah, Masked Empire made it clear to me that Celene valued Briala as a spymaster before she cared for her as a lover. Celene values herself before anyone else, including anyone who ends up in her bed. And sending her back to that is just not something I would ever do to Briala. Honestly, reading that book, in addition to playing the Winter Palace as a Dalish devoted to the Creators, made me just want to go to Orlais and toss fireballs around, singing 'let it burn' to the tune of 'Let It Go.'

 

Let it burn, let it buuuuuuuuuurn! And I'll cleanse the world with fire...

 

*ahem* Sorry.

 

Briala's probably my favorite in the situation - we're supposed to apparently view the elven servant who we save in Florrianne's quarters as 'evidence' that Briala is corrupt, but I really don't think Briala sent her there to die, and certainly not at the hands of a Harlequin. Celene will enforce the status quo, just with fancier and shinier balls because she rose to power because of that status quo, it's what keeps her in power. Her reaction to losing standing in the Game, being accused of being fond of elves, is to burn down an alienage, the people already struggling hardest for scraps. Not those who ACTUALLY insulted her, but the people already crapped on by the rest of Orlais. Top notch leadership there. ON TOP of having killed her lover's parents in the name of securing that position. Meanwhile, Gaspard's motivation seems little more than a temper tantrum - 'I was supposed to be emperor, it's not FAIR!' But at least I can have Briala pulling his strings. And yeah, he's not much better on the subject of the elves.

 

I may not like Gaspard any better than Celene in the final analysis, but at least Gaspard can be manipulated. Celene is at the top of Orlais's game of manipulation. And she deserves to be toppled.

[Drasanil]

Never would have happened had Celene been the Empress her supporters claim she is.  A ruler who puts her empire into a state where civil war is possible can not be held blameless.  Gaspard didn't go to war alone.  He had the support of people who felt that Celene was doing a ****** poor job.

 

Irrelevant. It's still Gaspard "fault" for capitalizing on her inept governance and attempting to right the ship.

 

(You know, ignoring the fact she *maybe* usurped the throne from him in the first place. Orlais really needs to clarify it's succession laws, because apparently name means a lot yet Gaspard was still in line before Celene despite the fact he was the son of a daughter as opposed to Celene who was the daughter of a son. Which under normal convention would have put her in front given girls are behind boys in normals lines of succession. Meaning her father had priority over Gaspard's mother and despite being a girl herself, she still had priority over Gaspard given her father's claim would trump his mother's claim.

 

Then again I just chalk this clusterfrick up to Bioware not actually bothering to think through the implications of their gender relations with regards to how nobility actually functioned in their setting. Apparently its all equal but male line of succession names still matter, but they really don't because that would be sexist, but they still really do because Celene was able to usurp Gaspard on that basis  )

 

--- --- ---

 

All this aside. I think Gaspard is a pretty cool guy. Eh all about the nobility and doesnt afraid of anything. Unlike Celene who afraids of everything   

[InfinitePaths]

Corruption in itself will never end. It's an intrinsic part of politics.

 

HOWEVER, there are govts. where corruption is so extensive it has become institucionalized (in Brazil, for instance) and govts. where corruption is so foreign to the local culture that the govt goes to great lenghts to combat it (Norway, Finland, asf).

 

My belief is that Gaspard will implement a NEW kind of govt. with very clear political directives, that converge toward improving Orlais and turning it into a great nation once again. And for that, he'll submit the nobles by any means necessary, even by force, since he mentions to the Inquisitor that he would resort to beheading anyone who disagrees with this principle. 

 

Celene was lenient toward corruption because she herself rose to power through corrupted means. She promised many favours to the members of the Council of Heralds in return for the crown.

I live in a corrupted country where the practice of such politics is common. I cannot put into words the social devastation and the state of calamity my country is because of this kind of politics that's been going on for DECADES. So NO, I don't sympathize with Celene in the least and ALWAYS place Gaspard on the throne. Which is why the Game thrived under her leadership and shall not do so under Gaspard's rule.

 

You simply can't build a great nation when nobles are always resorting to schemes in order to take what others have. You need people ready to take risks, set selfish interests aside for a moment and apply their resources in favor of investments that will yield results in the future for the nation, not only for the individual. Something only a competent govt. is capable of doing.

Yeah dude, but like corruption is when someone  bribes, threatens or infleunces someone to get to power when the system is supposed to be fair and just.

 

These things are the national pastimes for the Orlesian Nobility. It's not corruption in Orlais - It's fair game. 

 

Also, Gaspard is fully ready to to immoral things to get to the throne. Actually much more immoral things. They are just less subtler. I'm sure many more innocent people would suffer under Gaspard's wars and laws than players of the game killed by Celene's schemes.