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Why would anyone pick Gaspard over Celene? (SPOLIERS)


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#126
SomethingUsername

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Not sure where some people seem to get the idea that Gaspard was an heir apparent. From what limited information there is about Orlesian succession the only important factor is the Council of Heralds and who gains their favour through the Game...something Gaspard lost to a 16 year old girl.

 

So if he couldn't even manage to get crowned Emperor back then, than he has no right to the throne now. 

 

Instead he opening attacks the legitimate ruler of an empire, costing the lives of Orlesian people in the process, all because he thinks he deserves to be Emperor. 

The guy is just dodgy. And I agree that Celene is no saint either, but she is still leagues above Gaspard. At least she actually knows how to rule a country and secure herself a throne. 



#127
Drasanil

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Not sure where some people seem to get the idea that Gaspard was an heir apparent. From what limited information there is about Orlesian succession the only important factor is the Council of Heralds and who gains their favour through the Game...something Gaspard lost to a 16 year old girl.

 

Well, because Orlais has a functioning nobility for one. So it would be proper to assume normal succession laws still apply, the Council of Heralds job is to adjudicate in cases where succession isn't clear. Such as supposedly Gaspard and Celene, where Gaspard was raised as the heir apparent because he was eldest grandchild of a previous emperor, however Celene could dispute his claim because he no longer had the Valois name.

 

All of which is a preposterous question given the hyper-aristocratic society that is Orlais would have resolved such issues long ago, given Thedas is apparently 100% gender-equal yet we are expected believe  this is the first time in centuries such an issue has cropped up. 

 

 

So if he couldn't even manage to get crowned Emperor back then, than he has no right to the throne now. 

 

It's my understanding Celene basically took the crown while he was away and unable to properly press his claim. Making her opportunist as opposed to Gaspard being somehow deficient. 



#128
thesuperdarkone2

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People seem to forget that Celene is the only reason Orlais is the powerhouse it is today. If she didn't take power, Gaspard would have taken control over a country on the road to ruin.



#129
Drasanil

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People seem to forget that Celene is the only reason Orlais is the powerhouse it is today. If she didn't take power, Gaspard would have taken control over a country on the road to ruin.

 

Or not.



#130
Former_Fiend

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People seem to forget that Celene is the only reason Orlais is the powerhouse it is today. If she didn't take power, Gaspard would have taken control over a country on the road to ruin.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.


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#131
sniper_arrow

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People seem to forget that Celene is the only reason Orlais is the powerhouse it is today. If she didn't take power, Gaspard would have taken control over a country on the road to ruin.

 

In what way? Orlais is already morally in ruin, regardless as to whoever sits on the throne.



#132
fhs33721

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I haven't read TME, but why wouldn't Celene and Gaspard get married for political purposes, other than the whole "they're related" reason?

1. Celene doesn't want to because she is most likely lesbian.

2. They hate each other.

3. Gaspard basically tried to blackmail her into marriying him under the threat of death. And promtly tries to murder her after she refuses.

 

 

Never would have happened had Celene been the Empress her supporters claim she is.  A ruler who puts her empire into a state where civil war is possible can not be held blameless.  Gaspard didn't go to war alone.  He had the support of people who felt that Celene was doing a ****** poor job.

Yes the racist, militaristic jerks of Orlais were the ones that followed Gaspard because they felt Celene pandered to much to the Elf and diplomatic crowd.

Poor little assh*les. They are so upset that they can't go burn down villages in neighbouring countries any more. And spending money on a univeristy where elves are allowed to study instead of training more soldiers? The horror. When will anyone think of poor warhounds. How are they supposed to feast on human/elven/dwarf flesh with reforms like that. Why does nobody ever think of the warhounds. :crying:

Celene surely is the devil herself for not giving those people what they wanted.


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#133
thesuperdarkone2

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Or not.

It is true. Read WOT. It outright confirms that Orlais was crippled and going on the road to ruin after the failed Ferelden occupation. Only Celene's diplomatic and political skills were able to revitalize the country enough to make it what it is today.



#134
Steelcan

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It is true. Read WOT. It outright confirms that Orlais was crippled and going on the road to ruin after the failed Ferelden occupation. Only Celene's diplomatic and political skills were able to revitalize the country enough to make it what it is today.

the emperor was also a lunatic, may have helped with that



#135
Lumix19

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Well, because Orlais has a functioning nobility for one. So it would be proper to assume normal succession laws still apply, the Council of Heralds job is to adjudicate in cases where succession isn't clear. Such as supposedly Gaspard and Celene, where Gaspard was raised as the heir apparent because he was eldest grandchild of a previous emperor, however Celene could dispute his claim because he no longer had the Valois name.

 

All of which is a preposterous question given the hyper-aristocratic society that is Orlais would have resolved such issues long ago, given Thedas is apparently 100% gender-equal yet we are expected believe  this is the first time in centuries such an issue has cropped up. 

 

 
 

 

It's my understanding Celene basically took the crown while he was away and unable to properly press his claim. Making her opportunist as opposed to Gaspard being somehow deficient. 

To be fair the circumstances leading to the ascension of Florian were unusual, the outbreak of the Hundred Days Cough and his brother's accident, and he was never meant to be Emperor, in fact he didn't even seem to want to be. And even that would have been fine had Florian had children who survived, but he didn't so that resulted in the chaos that still rocks Orlais now.

 

The highly political nature of Orlais probably meant that scenarios like Florian's were far and few between, I doubt many Emperors/Empresses ascended without wanting to and the death of all the immediate successors was unusual enough.

 

And if Gaspard was silly enough to leave then he's not playing the Game properly,

 

“A chevalier might be as the hawk—perform mighty deeds and be showered with glory—only to find that a subtler fellow at home has nibbled away at his influence at court, with sweet gifts and sweeter promises. Tiny victories compound."



#136
The Baconer

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My belief is that Gaspard will implement a NEW kind of govt. with very clear political directives, that converge toward improving Orlais and turning it into a great nation once again. And for that, he'll submit the nobles by any means necessary, even by force, since he mentions to the Inquisitor that he would resort to beheading anyone who disagrees with this principle.

 

Dude is almost 70 years old. The maneuver that was almost the winning-stroke against Celene was a play in the old Game, and likely the machinations of his late ally Remache (given how he's fallen apart in Inquisition without his support). There won't be a new government.


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#137
Lumix19

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Dude is almost 70 years old. The maneuver that was almost the winning-stroke against Celene was a play in the old Game, and likely the machinations of his late ally Remache (given how he's fallen apart in Inquisition without his support). There won't be a new government.

I agree. The Game is far too ingratiated into Orlais to be rid of it by beheading people. Drakon is perhaps the most respected figure in Orlais' history and even he couldn't get rid of the Game.



#138
JJDXB

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I'm fully aware that Celene is hardly a good person.  But Gaspard's kill count (AKA The Orlesian Civil War) is much higher than hers, so Gaspard gets the chop.  The heir wasn't legally obvious, that's why Celene was even being considered.  He didn't have a "right" to it any more than Celene.  I am in no doubt that if Gaspard was Emperor from the very beginning Orlais, he'd manage to kill off a helluva lot more people than Celene has.

 

Also, Celene defies the court so many times I must keep in her power just because I want to see the others squirm.  Apostates at court, the Divine can't do ****.  Openly flaunting her lady (elven) love and making her a marquise.  Supporting the university and decreeing the layfolk and elves may study there if sponsored.



#139
JadeDragon

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Why would anyone favor either one is the real question. Bioware did not do a good job in game of presenting either side over the other. The book is needed to even make a fair judgement as a player and the game doesnt give enough development of either character to make your Inquisitior RPing even care. Your Inquisitior is not native so they know as much as a player new to dragon age and you are forced to hotshot someone as the figure head of a enitre nation so they can support you in your plans. The only thing presented to my Inquisitor was all three was scum in someway after finding all the blackmail info and either way my inquisitor won the game because regradless of who I put on the throne I won. I couldve put them in a bottle and played spin the bottle and still won because I got my army. So since I saw all 3 of them equally as bad because evil is evil no matter the act I decided to play all three of them and force them to work together. Because honestly if they worked together forreal Orlais would be in good shape and so would my army which is what my Inquisitor cared about. If my Inquisitor wanted the best person on the throne based on morals he would have put all 3 on judgement and put Fairbanks as the head of Orlais. That is the only noble who moral actions actually made me care for the people of Orlais. Instead I had a man with honor but a taste for war(also racist), a empress who would put a knife in my back before the other 3(at least with Gaspard I would see the knife coming) and a elf I dont even know who wants to controll either as puppets. So why let either of these cruel folks win? My Inquisitor did not read the masked empire and neither have I but I have read the details to know I only liked Michel who was not present in this choice to help me decide. While the decision is major to Orlais it did not feel major in game as far as presentation. I would have even went with fairbanks opinion if he could have gave me his. So since I cant choice either I choose all because they have to sleep with one eye open around each other I dont(at least not for this reason). There is only one winner the Inquisition none of them deserve the satisfaction.



#140
draken-heart

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When I saw the title of this thread, I had to post this. WHO CARES ABOUT TME? As far as I am concerned, bringing that into any debate about the Ruler of Orlais is pure meta, since our inquisitor may not even know about any of what happened in that book. no body brings up anything except the elven lover (and again only Briala and Leliana bring up the fact directly, while Celene is merely indirect about it) and Gaspard starting the Civil War.


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#141
vertigomez

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When I saw the title of this thread, I had to post this. WHO CARES ABOUT TME? As far as I am concerned, bringing that into any debate about the Ruler of Orlais is pure meta, since our inquisitor may not even know about any of what happened in that book. no body brings up anything except the elven lover (and again only Briala and Leliana bring up the fact directly, while Celene is merely indirect about it) and Gaspard starting the Civil War.


The OP said they don't understand how anyone could "admire and like Gaspard as a character." That's a fairly meta question so it's garnered some fairly meta answers.

#142
draken-heart

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The OP said they don't understand how anyone could "admire and like Gaspard as a character." That's a fairly meta question so it's garnered some fairly meta answers.

 

Really, it should come down to the CHARACTER. Who cares about us players. We are just the driver of the plot. I character do not care for either, and neither do I (but that is simply coincidence) because who I like does not matter in who should rule.



#143
fhs33721

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Really, it should come down to the CHARACTER. Who cares about us players. We are just the driver of the plot. I character do not care for either, and neither do I (but that is simply coincidence) because who I like does not matter in who should rule.

Weird, Last time I checked this was a game-forum which was also partially designed for the purpose of us (the players) discussing meta-knowledge spanning all three games and other Dragon Age related materials as well as personal opinions of the plot of said games and other related materials.

But apparently I was wrong. Please tell us, oh wise one, how to correctly use this forum.


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#144
draken-heart

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Weird, Last time I checked this was a game-forum which was also partially designed for the purpose of us (the players) discussing meta-knowledge spanning all three games and other Dragon Age related materials as well as personal opinions of the plot of said games and other related materials.

But apparently I was wrong. Please tell us, oh wise one, how to correctly use this forum.

 

When it comes to the TITLE of the thread (why would anyone pick Gaspard over Celene?), more often than not, the people who do have read TME and are meta-gaming the reason why on the forum.



#145
Palidane

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Because I can trust him. Celene is a treacherous viper who will turn on me the second I become an inconvenience. She loves the Grand Game, and has made it the foundation of her rule. I don't have time for any of that crap, I need allies I can depend on. There's a war on, and Gaspard is a soldier, one of the best. He has his moral failings, but I know he is good to his word. If he says he will help me against Corypheus, I know he will with all of his strength.



#146
fhs33721

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When it comes to the TITLE of the thread (why would anyone pick Gaspard over Celene?), more often than not, the people who do have read TME and are meta-gaming the reason why on the forum.

Care to rephrase this here? Because I can honestly not tell what exactly you are trying to say.

Because I can trust him. Celene is a treacherous viper who will turn on me the second I become an inconvenience. She loves the Grand Game, and has made it the foundation of her rule. I don't have time for any of that crap, I need allies I can depend on. There's a war on, and Gaspard is a soldier, one of the best. He has his moral failings, but I know he is good to his word. If he says he will help me against Corypheus, I know he will with all of his strength.

You mean like the time he agreed to attend peaceful negotiations and then planned to take over during them with armed forces? Grade-A trustworthyness right there.



#147
Amne YA

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let's close this for  real !
poeple choose celen cause they like elfs .  that's it . they fantasy about her and briala and all those teenage dreams .
we have to fight an army of  crazy elfs in DA4  i  prefer to have gaspard   in orlais than  an  empress week to   elfs . it's Orlais people not the dales . it's a human empruim . let's  stay realist 



#148
Barquiel

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Because I can trust him. Celene is a treacherous viper who will turn on me the second I become an inconvenience. She loves the Grand Game, and has made it the foundation of her rule. I don't have time for any of that crap, I need allies I can depend on. There's a war on, and Gaspard is a soldier, one of the best. He has his moral failings, but I know he is good to his word. If he says he will help me against Corypheus, I know he will with all of his strength.


Gaspard keeps his word only when it suits him. He has already broken his oath to serve Celene, and then tried to infiltrate the winter palace with mercenaries. So what would he care about a promise made to a free marcher or an elf (whom he thinks are below humans in the first place)? His chevalier "honor code" doesn't even apply to them.



#149
helpthisguyplease

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Let me tell you something no nation can survive with Celene's mindset and that is because those kind of nations get destroyed by nations with Gaspard's mindset. 

My example for my claim are the Rome and Chartage one was warrior like ones was more peacefull and merchant orientated and let me ask you all who won?

Ireland a peaceful island and England a warlike country and my question is who won?

Han empire and Joseon and who won? 

Spanish empire and the Mayans and who won?

USA and the native tribes so who won?

Italy and Ethiopia who won?

Egypt and the Persian empire who won?

The Song empire and the Mongols who won?

Peace and culture does not make a country great but war and might makes and Gaspard knows that.



#150
arelenriel

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My response as historian to the above post. Military might does not mean the survival of a race, culture, or nation. 

 

Ireland was in no way peaceful before the English came in - it was composed of warring clans nominally ruled by a royal family and Ireland defended itself well against the British for thousands of years.. In fact the Celtics/Gaels controlled the majority of the British Isles for longer than the English (none of whom are actual natives to to British Isles, they are descended from the Teutonic- read German Saxon tribe, the French, and the Romans).  Yes the Irish had culture but they also had soldiers and they never stopped fighting- they merely went from open battlefields to guerilla warfare and playing "the Game" with British diplomats to get what they wanted. Ireland is currently Northern Ireland ruled by the British and still fighting them and the Republic of Ireland which has had self rule for almost 100 years. I don't think England really won that one.

 

Egypt was taken over several times- Greece (Cleopatra was a Greek not an Egyptian ruler as was her entire family), Rome, the Ottoman Empire etc.  Persia ruled the world militarily for thousands of years (have you read the Bible?) and the two main nations that comprised Persia, Iran and Iraq now partially control a major segment of the international economy- oil. Again Egypt did not really win-they spent  two millenia being oppressed by other nations  and are are now a really minor player on the international military and political scene.

 

The indigenous peoples of North, South, and Central America, as well as the indigenous peoples of the South Sea Islands and Australia were in no way  all peaceful- tree huggers as people seem to think.  The Aztecs, Mayans, and Incans warred against all of the other tribes in the area, were very expansionist, and sacrificed human beings as part of their religion, slavery was an accepted part of many indigenous cultures- these are not things that denote nations that are  peaceful- or focused on culture and these three  indigenous empires were the first to fall to Spanish colonists. While there may have been some Native peoples focused on culture and peace- the main Indigenous empires of the Americas were not. Also England, Spain, and France did not defeat the indigenous peoples by military might-they defeated them by playing what Orlesians call "The Game" false treaties, promises to allow indigenous peoples to keep their lands, taking indigenous leaders hostage, or assassinating them, and biological warfare (smallpox blankets anyone) were the most common weapons, In fact in terms of men on the field with weapons the indigenous peoples of the Americas outnumbered the Europeans more than 10:1. When Cortes defeated the Aztec emperor Montezuma he had less than 500 men compared to Montezuma's several thousand man strong military that had been taking over other indigenous nations for centuries.

 

The Song were no less warlike than the Mongols - the Northern Song were involved in 3 major wars excluding their war with the Mongols- just because they did not win does not mean they were any less militarily expansionist than the Mongols.

 

As per being a nation like the USA- you note- we may have expanded in terms of military power but pretty much everyone in the world hates the US- at least in relation to our political/military approach to other nations. Thus many of those examples don't really hold their weight in a solid argument 

 

The same is also true of Orlais- prior to Celene the country was exceedingly warlike and expansionist- they ruled Fereldan until around the time Celene was born- when the Rebellion against Orlais by Fereldans wanting self rule led by Maric and Loghain started. They have constantly tried to take over Antiva, Navarra, and Rivain- and have been fighting Tevinter for around 1000 years- they are no less warlike and expansionist because Celene sits on the throne than they are with Gaspard. Celene's focus on culture and education does not mean Orlais is not going to survive as a nation- nations can have both culture and be militarily expansionist- that is why England once ruled most of the world at one point- as did Rome. 

 

Ultimately a nation must balance their desire to expand via military might with culture, and peace- the military is meant to enforce peace not to take over other nations. Note many of the nations where it is claimed they "won" via military might really did not- because eventually and inevitably someone comes along with more firepower, more soldiers, and a more united people than yours.

 

Whether one is war-mongering or peaceful ultimately has little to do with whether a culture or nation rises or falls- in fact- war mongering inevitably causes all the other nations to rise against you and put you down HARD- (Germany and Japan in World War II, the Ottoman Empire and their Allies in World War I). Cultures and nations rise and fall for several reasons such as, famine, the land being stripped of resources, natural disasters, war, and failure of the government. If one looks at Theodosian history- this has happened several times including the ancient Elvhen, and Dwarven empires and Tevinter (used to rule the world now a minor nation clinging to the past but without the military might to reclaim it). 

 

If Orlais falls it is because several of those things are currently going on in  Orlais- famine, land being stripped of resources, because the ridiculous Civil War for which both Celene and Gaspard are to blame- has destroyed most of the Dales- which is where most of their farmland is- at least according to what have seen of Orlais so far, failure of government is also occurring because the government and military are torn right down the middle between supporters of Celene vs.  supporters of Gaspard even after you support/execute one or the other-just because Gaspard or Celene dies doesn't mean their supporters stop believing in whatever cause or excuse they used to start the Civil War to begin with anymore than the Civil War in the US has ever truly been resolved (we still have the North vs South thing going on), and natural disasters because of the Rifts, the effects of the 1st-4th Blights on Orlais that rendered about 1/2 the country (Western Approach, Hissing Wastes, Hidden Oasis) unliveable, and war because of both the Mage-Templar war (effected the region the White Spire is in almost as badly as the Hinterlands), and the Civil War.

 

Orlais is going to fall it is just a matter of getting a leader in there who can hold it together as long as possible before Navarra, Antiva, and Fereldan start taking it to pieces. In my case I chose Celene- leaders who choose diplomacy- and who focus on domestic policy rather than a militarily expansionist foreign policy are less likely to end up dead by either being killed by their own people or assassins of foreign governments. Given Gaspards approach to the game- and hence diplomacy and foreign relations- it is likely that in a Gaspard alone, or Gaspard/Briala combo - we will end up with a dead Gaspard. 


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