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[Gervaise]

I was thinking again about this group of people in the light of Solas' proposed plan.   They have cropped up repeatedly down the years, the most recently when Lord Seeker Lucius went peculiar and embraced their ideas.   They are meant to be a devout Andrastrian cult who believe that the current world is so corrupt that "Thedas must be cleansed with fire and reborn as a paradise".    Strikes me that this sounds an awful lot like what Solas claims will happen when he tears down the Veil.   

 

Do you suppose they came by their beliefs independently or did one of Fen'Harel's followers originally put the idea in their heads, or even Solas himself via the Fade, considering he is a Dreamer?    We tend to think of Solas' followers as being exclusively elves but I could see this group at least trying to prevent us getting in the way of his plans as it would see the fulfilment of their beliefs.

 

I also wonder how much Solas could get various demons on his side, since they would enjoy the chaos he has planned.    That was certainly how Felassan got Imshael to leave his party, with the promise of something far more interesting to come.    At the time Felassan would likely think Solas was going to succeed with his initial plan, not knowing anything about Corypheus' immortality, so the hints he was giving to Imshael were about the imminent chaos to come.    Surely an ancient elven god destroying the Veil and the world along with it would count as at least some people's worst nightmare, so presumably that demon will be able to make a come back as well.   

 

Anyone else getting a feeling of deja vu about all this?

[QueenCrow]

I think it's clever to put these things together, that sometimes the death of something can cleanse, then the reborn version is somehow better.

 

Add in what Svarah Sun-hair said about Hakkon Wintersbreath, and Inquisitor Ameridan's involvement.  

 

Inquisitor:  Don't you mind that we intend to kill one of your gods?

Svarah:  Nah.  He needs to die so that he can be reborn better.

 

(Or something like that)

[myahele]

Who knows where they got their beliefs from, but I imagine it's similar to how people in the hinterlands started to worship veil tears. Had that cult had a chance to grow who knows where they'll be?

[Hydwn]

It could simply be that they caught glimpses of Elven wishes for the Veil to be torn down in dreams.  But given how Solas expects modern elves (including those following him) to die, and doesn't consider them his people, and yet is willing to use them it's not really a far leap to use humans as well.

 

Thing is, though, I brought him with me on Cassandra's mission.  There was no hint he knew who these people were, or was willing to help them in any way.  Maybe he thought it would be moot point if got the orb, or maybe he was just that deep undercover, but if they were his people I would have expected something there.

 

For my own part, I think they're just there to shine some uncomfortable light on Andrasteism's beginnings.  The elves got their religion deconstructed big time in Inquisition, but a series of codices, Inquisitor Ameridan's mixed Dalish/Chantry beliefs in Hakkon, and a lot of stuff in World of Thedas 2 suggest that no one really knows what Andraste said or believed, or what really happened around her.  The Order of Fiery Promise might be direct descendants of her original disciples, with some secret enclave like the one at Haven had been.

[Gervaise]

I don't think that Solas would regard them as his followers, merely that he might have put the idea in their heads as it would ultimately help his own plans.    That he evidence no recognition of them proves nothing since he new so much more about everything that was going on than he ever let on at the time, including the fact that he knew Cory had survived the explosion and probably had a pretty fair idea how this had been managed once we saw both Cory and Grey Wardens at the Conclave in the Fade.  

[Dai Grepher]

They might be the Inquisitor's "in" for Solas' circle. If a new character can infiltrate the Order of Fiery Promise, and then the Inquisitor can steer them toward Solas through third party means, then there's a chance. Solas will undoubtedly use them to further his own goals, and he will underestimate them just like he has done with everyone else.

[Urzon]

That's what I've been thinking as well.
 
The Inquisitor's encounter with them always struck me as incredibly odd. Because what's the devs' point of inserting in a random apocalyptic cult (with some actual backstory) when that role could easily have been filled in with random crazies? In such a minor role and encounter as well. But then we find out that Solas is actually the Dread Wolf, you remember all those cryptic conversations with Cole, his dialogue about the Veil in Haven, (plus he later straight out tells you in Trespasser), and then all the pieces start to come together at this point.
 
The Order is probably going to be working with Solas in a major way come DA4, and he's probably going to be using them to extend his influence and gather support from those of the Andrastian faith (since he already has an easy in with the Elves by being a god). There are already theories of him possibly being Shartan once upon a time, and whether or not he actually was, I can see him using and playing that role to possibly gain leadership of the Order to directly use them towards his plans.

[Daerog]

I kind of like the Promisers. Not necessarily how they were portrayed, but the idea behind them and their potential.

 

I can just imagine a novel being written with the main character finding out about the Order and re-establishing it, like as if it was the Sith or something.

 

The world is filled with corruption; it's not hard to imagine someone thinking, "Y'know, I think all the governments and current powers should just collapse. Clean slate, go back, restart, and maybe the world will remember to look to The Maker in order to make a paradise on Earth. The status quo is preventing Paradise." That someone may just learn about the Order of Fiery Promise, learn some of its secrets (secrets it shares with the Seekers), and then have those secrets used to keep bringing the Promisers back.

 

 

I think they are unrelated to the Dread Wolf. In a way, they remind me of a mixture of the Empty Ones and Andrastianism.

[Ballax]

The Order is probably going to be working with Solas in a major way come DA4, and he's probably going to be using them to extend his influence and gather support from those of the Andrastian faith (since he already has an easy in with the Elves by being a god). There are already theories of him possibly being Shartan once upon a time, and whether or not he actually was, I can see him using and playing that role to possibly gain leadership of the Order to directly use them towards his plans.

 

I quite like the idea of a bit of both. Perhaps Shartan was to Solas as Andraste supposedly was to the Maker. I choose to believe that Shartan was truly just a slave, born to nothing who fought his way up to becoming a freedom fighter and a general, but his commitment to doing the right thing was enough for Solas to influence him in dreams and the fade since he was likely too weak to manifest physically at the time.  The idea of him coming back and claiming to be Shartan returned seems plausible and darkly ironic. Once he fought people who claimed to be gods and now he returns claiming to be the chosen of a god, I'm sure somewhere Elgar'nan and all the rest are having a good laugh about it.

[Gervaise]

I started replaying the game (again) and when I went to the first astrarium the codex entry links into this.    Whilst it is thought they were originally devised by a group of Tevinter who wanted to overthrow the Magisterium and return the set up to how it was when Dreamers ruled, the Order of Fiery Promise later went around trying to destroy them because they thought they were maintaining the Veil.

 

This is interesting on two points.   First that whilst the astrariums may not be connected to the Veil, they do look very similar in appearance to all those elven artefacts that Solas kept drawing our attention to and which he definitely said did have something to do with the Veil (whether was he said about them strengthening it is true we shall probably find out later).     The second is that previously the Order of Fiery Promise only said the world needed to be destroyed, without indicating by what means.    They are meant to be Andrastrians which would make you think they would subscribe to the creation view given in the Chant where the Maker set the material world apart from the Fade, thus implying there had always been a Veil.     So if they believed that removing the Veil would bring about the desired end of the world, either they knew something about the teaching of Andraste that we don't or they came by their belief by some other means.  

 

It does seem a huge coincidence that the Order of Fiery Promise should hold this belief about the Veil and artefacts supporting it, that seems so very close to what we know from Solas.

[azarhal]

 They are meant to be Andrastrians which would make you think they would subscribe to the creation view given in the Chant where the Maker set the material world apart from the Fade, thus implying there had always been a Veil.   

 

Repeating for the hundredth time, the physical world and the Fade were always separated and the creation myth in the Chant doesn't talk about the Veil being created.

[Gervaise]

That's my whole point.   The Chant says they were always separate; so the Veil was always there as a division between the two.   The Maker was wholly responsible for the state of the world as it is.    That is what anyone who follows the Maker and the Chant believes.     So why would a cult of Andraste believe that tearing down the Veil would bring about the end of the world in fiery chaos?   Why would they believe that certain artefacts are helping keep the Veil in place?    Why would they believe that destroying those artefacts will cause the Veil to collapse?

 

The only people who should believe these things are those who know that there was once no barrier between the world of dreams (Fade) and the waking world (Thedas).   Until Solas told us his story the nearest anyone has come to the truth was the Dalish myth about the loss of their gods through Fen'Harel shutting them away in the heavans, which no self respecting Andrastrian would give credence to.    Yet apparently this Order of Fiery Promise did.     Did someone perhaps speak to them in their dreams, either a demon or Solas himself?

[azarhal]

That's my whole point.   The Chant says they were always separate; so the Veil was always there as a division between the two.   The Maker was wholly responsible for the state of the world as it is.    That is what anyone who follows the Maker and the Chant believes.     So why would a cult of Andraste believe that tearing down the Veil would bring about the end of the world in fiery chaos?   Why would they believe that certain artefacts are helping keep the Veil in place?    Why would they believe that destroying those artefacts will cause the Veil to collapse?

 

The only people who should believe these things are those who know that there was once no barrier between the world of dreams (Fade) and the waking world (Thedas).   Until Solas told us his story the nearest anyone has come to the truth was the Dalish myth about the loss of their gods through Fen'Harel shutting them away in the heavans, which no self respecting Andrastrian would give credence to.    Yet apparently this Order of Fiery Promise did.     Did someone perhaps speak to them in their dreams, either a demon or Solas himself?

 

*Sigh* Check the link in my post.

 

I'm getting real grumpy over forums dwellers who can't seem to grasp that the Fade (ever changing world) and the physical world (unchanging world) always existed as separated things with their own rules and the Veil has nothing to do with it.

[Daerog]

There was a division before the Veil; that is how the Evanuris were able to banish the Forbidden Ones from the Earth. There is a division, just as there is a division between the sea and sky. Solas just added a strong film or sheet over the sea to emphasize/strengthen that division.

 

However, that isn't entirely accurate since the Fade is not like the sky and the Earth is not like the sea, because they kind of exist in the same "place," but there has always been a division between the two because one could be "present" in a "place" where someone else is differently "present" in that same "place."

 

What Solas revealed in Trespasser, about the Veil, did not go against the Andrastian Creation story.

 

If there was no division between the two before the Veil, then the Evanuris could not have banished the Forbidden Ones from the Earth, because the two would be the same and they can't go into Nothing.

 

The Fade and Earth are not two different dimensions that were made with some sort of dimensional barrier put in place. It is more metaphysical than that.

[FernRain]

I wrote this on reddit before Trespasser: 

So-called "astrariums" are relics from an order of pre-Andrastian magisters who believed in the destruction of the Magisterium and wanted to return to an earlier period where dreamers ruled. Many of these relics were sought out by Andrastrian cultists (the Order of Fiery Promise in particular) in the Divine Age and destroyed. Why? Because they believed the astrariums held together the veil, and that destroying them would destroy the world. The Order of Fiery Promise decreed that not only was the end of the world nigh, it was necessary; Thedas must be cleansed with fire and reborn as a paradise. They devoted themselves utterly to seeing this come about, whether they ever drew closer to their goal is unknown.

In the Western Approach are three astrariums:
•Toth: old god, dragon of fire. Represented as a flaming orb or a man aflame.
•Satinalis: Satina (the moon), or Satinalia (the holiday). Modernly depicted as the Celebrant (a man playing a lyre), previously depicted as Mortemalis (a warrior holding aloft a head, usually of an elf).
•Fenrir: white wolf, assumed supplanted from Fen'harel; or, a neromenian tale that claims a wolf escaped hunters by fleeing into the sky.

Unlock these three constellations and an old Tevinter treasure room is revealed. Inside? One of the artifacts of Solas' people. Activate it to "strengthen the veil".

Things on my mind:
•Do the three constellations in each area relate to each other?
•The Order of Fiery Promise has a strange obsession with the Seekers and Chantry (the latter symbolized as the sun),
•They think the Seekers stole their place,
•They keep coming back from extinction after being wiped out by the Inquisition throughout the ages,
•They've hunted the dreamers' relics,
•They believe destroying the veil will destroy the world,
•They want Thedas to be cleansed with fire in it's rebirth,
•Will removing the veil cause some sort of fiery catastrophic event?

I think the "sun" has a lot of answers, if we knew what it was.

[Inquisitor Tiber Trevelyan]

Many people seem to think that the Order of Fiery Promise is somehow working for Fen'Harel. Even though both their goals seem to be to destroy the veil and thus make the present world burn (in chaos?) because of it, I highly doubt they want to cause it for the same reasons. 

 

Think about it, at the end of Trespasser when Solas and the Inquisitor discusses the Dread Wolf's original plans for the orb he states the following: 

 

- Inquisitor: If you destroyed the veil, wouldn't the false gods be freed? 

- Solas: I had plans. 

 

So yeah, Solas wants to destroy the veil, he however doesn't say how or more importantly when he wants to do it. Maybe he wanted to do it straight away after unlocking the orb, but I doubt that. I think he ment to do it only after he had prepared enough for his upcoming battle with the trapped false gods. 

 

 

My theory is that the Order of Fiery Promise wants to destoy the veil as soon as possible and thus releasing whatever power they're secretly working for (the Evanuris?). If they manage to destroy it then Fen'Harel and Mythal will not be properly prepared for the upcoming battle with the Evanuris. Both the Evanuris and the Dread Wolf want the veil gone, so that the Promisers also want it destroyed is a poor argument for them working for Fen'Harel. 

 

It's hard to know if the Promisers are being manipulated into their actions of if they're aware of a greater power influencing them, but since they keep reappearing through the ages with their ideals it's very likely that something big is really backing them up. Why would they want to create chaos and thus bring "paradise" if they don't believe they have some kind of power at their backs to control the coming chaos? I really don't think the Dread Wolf is that power. 

[Xerrai]

I don't really think much of them. I mean, they are certainly not the first fanatical group to try and herald the end of the world order as we know it.

We had that cult in the Hinterlands that were outright worshipping the rifts, a group of Avvaar that wanted to purge the lowlands with ice, there was group of people that worshipped the blight/taint, etc.

 

Most of these "world ending cults" have an interest in ancient or unknown magics/relics, and just like just about everything else in the franchise, it usually ties in with Old Gods, Ancient Elvhen Gods (or Solas by extension) and/or Andraste.

 

In other words: I don't believe there is anything special to them. If they are special, I have to see more (distinctly non-circumstantial) evidence.