322 réponses à ce sujet

[Remix-General Aetius]

sexual predators

 

are you referring to Conrad Verner or Liara?

[Fredward]

The point of this scenario that we see time and time and time again is to enunciate what isn't obvious. That hidden truth that lies beneath the superficial scenario. That is a meaningful enunciation. The enunciation of the truth that the heroes have a strength, a quality, that isn't obvious on the surface. This is a conclusion that goes against the shallow and immediate perspective. It looks deeper.

 

This is why having the story play out with the 'evil and shallowly beneficial' choice turning to be actually beneficial is poor writing. It's pointless. It betrays the whole purpose of stories.

 

What hidden truth? What quality? Moral superiority? Whatever, tangential to my primary point which is...

 

The paragon and renegade system exists to give the players some level of agency. They're obviously tied with some moral themes with paragon just being goody-two-shoes approach and renegade being more of a greater good kinda deal. The options are presented as doing what is right and just and good for paragon, a kind of immediate morality with an immediate payload of good feels. Renegade options (the big ones like the rachni and the krogan cure) are presented as being morally dubious or plainly wrong but with a longer term vision that isn't bad. It's smart but it makes you feel kinda shitty. So the difference here is Paragon for immediate good feels but not terribly smart, renegade for feeling like a bad but smart person.

 

In the long run you'd expect them to split about 50/50 between good conclusions and bad conclusions but they don't. Consistently the game (and maybe the whole series) sets up situations in which you wind up in a objectively worse situations for picking big renegade decisions. So now comparing the two again you get paragon with it's somewhat dim/idealistic decisions making process but good feels vs smarter renegade options that are 'supposed' to have a superior outcomes since they're smarter... but they don't. Ever. They always wind up worse. So why ever take renegade options? The game presents you these two paths, the Moral High Ground one vs the Rational one but then the devs introduce this invisible cosmic morality system that completely invalidates the latter.

 

As an aspect of player agency  (which I see it primarily as) I see the way paragon and renegade options are set up and carried out as being abject failures.

 

Now about your points on good needing to win to deliver some message because if evil wins it would be obvious and bad writing and not have a purpose I 1) don't agree with that at all and 2) don't consider it particularly relevant to Shepard's decisions since s/he never makes 'evil' decisions.

[BabyPuncher]

If you're foolishly trivializing and insulting the fundamental core of drama that is meaningful conflict and resolution as 'delivering some message' then you clearly have neither an understanding of the points I laid out nor the nature of stories.

[Fredward]

If you're foolishly trivializing and insulting the fundamental core of drama that is meaningful conflict of drama and resolution as 'delivering some message' then you clearly have neither an understanding of the points I laid out nor the nature of stories.

 

Kay.

 

 

 

On topic: someone already mentioned the omni-corrupt politicians shtick, to that I'd like to add leaders who actually listen to your dire warning when presented with sufficient evidence.

[Erstus]

Chosen Ones
Prophecy
Destined Hero to save the world/galaxy
Typical evil villain - Morally grey whose actions are corrupt or ruthless but you can relate and understand.

Really, any typical cliche that is overused. I am sick of being the destined Hero. DAI and Skyrim had so many overused tropes that I cringed.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Our hero being the only competent person in the galaxy.

The council of annoyingly stupid and close-minded aliens stopping us from doing our job.

Aliens that act like humans. 

[BabyPuncher]

The council of annoyingly stupid and close-minded aliens stopping us from doing our job.

 

And by 'stopping us from doing our job' you of course mean 'not immediately dropping their lives to follow the protagonist's demands after a two minute conversation because we deserve it gosh darnit.' Yes?

 

You do understand that wouldn't have changed anything in the narrative?

[afgncaap7]

1. Plot armor. "Because the script says so" is quite literally the only reason Kai Leng was a "threat". Everything about that character as he's portrayed in ME3 reeks of terrible writing and "but thou must fail to advance the plot". They literally had to put in an invincible gunship to delay you so he can "win" on Thessia because there's no effing way anybody's going to struggle against him alone in gameplay.

2. Forced drama. Legio​n was a software being who can copy, paste, store and otherwise save his "essence" on separate platforms to be reformed later. So he had to "go to his people"...and? I'm supposed to believe that the Geth, who have only become SMARTER after his sacrifice, can't copy the crucial bits of data that made Legion who he was and create a new Legion with his old memories intact? Or hell, at least a new Legion with a fresh slate? Oh, but a heroic sacrifice is more dramatic. Legion died because they wanted people to be sad even if they secured peace between the Geth and Quarians. Too bad it only made me facepalm.

3. Chil​dren are soooooo innocent and it's sooooooo much more tragic if something bad happens to them. I already made two paragraphs in a separate topic about why I hate the starchild that I'm not going to repeat here. Suffice to say, YOU CAN'T INTRODUCE A RANDOM SCHMUCK IN ONE FRIGGIN SCENE AND EXPECT THE AUDIENCE TO BE HEARTBROKEN WHEN HE GETS ATOMIZED LATER ON NOR CAN YOU PROCEED TO HAVE YOUR MAIN CHARACTER BE HAUNTED BY THE DEATH OF SOME RANDOM SCHMUCK AFTER THAT MAIN CHARACTER HAS ALREADY LOST SO MANY OTHER FRIENDS THAT HE HAD A MUCH DEEPER CONNECTION WITH!!!!!!!

[Dabrikishaw]

Whatever cliche Cerberus was in Mass Effect 2.

[BabyPuncher]

1. Plot armor. "Because the script says so" is quite literally the only reason Kai Leng was a "threat". Everything about that character as he's portrayed in ME3 reeks of terrible writing and "but thou must fail to advance the plot". They literally had to put in an invincible gunship to delay you so he can "win" on Thessia because there's no effing way anybody's going to struggle against him alone in gameplay.

 

I don't think you quite understand what plot armor is. But putting that aside, what solution would you propose exactly, for when the writers want the protagonist to lose a fight to a single human character?

[Gileadan]

I don't think you quite understand what plot armor is. But putting that aside, what solution would you propose exactly, for when the writers want the protagonist to lose a fight to a single human character?

Simply handle it better.

 

Kai Leng on Thessia was dreadful - he was so obviously script-armored that you knew what was coming ten seconds into the fight. His shield-script saves him in such a clearly visible way that the moment it happens, you know this is a fight you are being forced to lose. Might as well not bother, because the more you struggle against the script, the more awkward the whole scene becomes. When I played that battle for the first time, I immediately messed him up with a series of heavy pistol headshots, only to be forced to watch him regenerate from it. Given how badly he was handled before (everyone just watching as he killed Thane, Shepard not just hitting the brakes of the sky car to send the guy flying, and so on), it was clear that the devs had decided once again that Kai Leng's time hadn't come just yet.

 

Suggested alternative for Thessia: let Kai Leng fight an unrigged battle against Shepard. When he reaches a certain amount of health, a cutscene shows a cloaked phantom make off with the MacGuffin while everyone was busy shooting at Kai Leng. Then make him escape, or if he indeed "dies", have a part of the ceiling collapse to prevent the player from getting to the "corpse".  That would have made me feel more outplayed by a clever plan than being cheated by an effin' script.

 

I whipped him for about 30 minutes with Aria's Lash power in the final fight for that... by keeping him from running to his reinforcements' spawn point, without whom the combat script wouldn't continue.

[RandomSyhn]

The one that bothers me the most is the "I will defer to you despite the fact I disagree, have a higher rank, do not know you, have displayed my distrust in you, and have more experience." At least in first mass effect Shepard outranked everyone, especially after becoming a spectre.

 

I always find it a little odd when I'm suddenly in charge, or even consulted by those in charge for no reason. Now if I have to push to get my way, that could also make for a fun mechanic.

[BabyPuncher]

Simply handle it better.

Suggested alternative for Thessia: let Kai Leng fight an unrigged battle against Shepard. When he reaches a certain amount of health, a cutscene shows a cloaked phantom make off with the MacGuffin while everyone was busy shooting at Kai Leng. Then make him escape, or if he indeed "dies", have a part of the ceiling collapse to prevent the player from getting to the "corpse".  That would have made me feel more outplayed by a clever plan than cheated by a ****** script.

 

I'm looking for a solution that involves the character actually beating the protagonist. Not running away.

 

In addition, no reinforcements. No gunships or air support or drones or anything of the sort. No knockout gas or any nonsense like that. No fancy tech. No stealth. The character defeats the protagonist in an honest one-on-one fight (or one on three if the squadmates are there) because he's better and that's all there is to it.

 

Oh, and he has to be human sized. He can't be twenty feet tall. So no behemoths that can just shrug off attacks. Slightly bigger than the protagonist at the absolute most.

 

Any ideas?

[Iakus]

True Art is Angsty

 

Stupidity is the Only Option

 

A Wizard Did It

[RandomSyhn]

I'm looking for a solution that involves the character actually beating the protagonist. Not running away.

Maybe like in DA:O when you first battled Ser Cauthrian after saving Anora. I know it is technically possible to win the fight but enemies are scaled so high that it is extremely difficult. Especially on my first playthrough I felt it was particularly hopeless. It was a battle you needed to loose for plot reasons. (getting locked up in the tower to be rescued) but It felt like I couldn't actually win it. the only difference was instead of getting the reload screen I had a cutscene instead.

[BabyPuncher]

Maybe like in DA:O when you first battled Ser Cauthrian after saving Anora. I know it is technically possible to win the fight but enemies are scaled so high that it is extremely difficult. Especially on my first playthrough I felt it was particularly hopeless. It was a battle you needed to loose for plot reasons. (getting locked up in the tower to be rescued) but It felt like I couldn't actually win it. the only difference was instead of getting the reload screen I had a cutscene instead.

 

I suppose that's a possibility...not terribly fond of it, though. Dragon Age is a little more abstract over what kind of damage the characters are actually doing. I don't like the idea of a character surviving dozens of headshots because they're "level 50" or whatever. Levels are obviously a gameplay abstraction that doesn't exist in the story.

 

Still, if there was a perfect solution to this sort of thing, someone would have found it by now. It may be the best compromise available.
 

[Gileadan]

I'm looking for a solution that involves the character actually beating the protagonist. Not running away.

 

In addition, no reinforcements. No gunships or air support or drones or anything of the sort. No knockout gas or any nonsense like that. No fancy tech. No stealth. The character defeats the protagonist in an honest one-on-one fight (or one on three if the squadmates are there) because he's better and that's all there is to it.

 

Oh, and he has to be human sized. He can't be twenty feet tall. So no behemoths that can just shrug off attacks. Slightly bigger than the protagonist at the absolute most.

 

Any ideas?

Heh, good one.

 

I have a hard time coming up with any way that doesn't involve the NPC "cheating" in some way - grossly increased stats, invulnerability scripts and the like. Hmm.

 

In Mass Effect specifically, I'd probably give that NPC an ability that is similar to the Soldier's adrenaline rush (of course, as the player you'd only see the result of it, not the time dilation effect etc), meaning that when the player pops out of cover, they're hit with a volley of very accurate fire. Since an adrenaline-rush-volley executed by the player can realistically mess up one or more enemies, it might not be a big stretch to argue that the protagonist could be at the receiving end of it too. Same goes for biotic combos like getting Lifted or Lashed and then exploded.

[RandomSyhn]

I suppose that's a possibility...not terribly fond of it, though. Dragon Age is a little more abstract over what kind of damage the characters are actually doing. I don't like the idea of a character surviving dozens of headshots because they're "level 50" or whatever. Levels are obviously a gameplay abstraction that doesn't exist in the story.

 

Still, if there was a perfect solution to this sort of thing, someone would have found it by now. It may be the best compromise available.
 

It is a more difficult effect to produce with a shooter mechanic, and medi-gel doesn't quite elicit the same suspension of dispbelief a fantasy character downing a health potion does, to sustain health. Perhaps a character's speed or sheer numbers of enemies could work. The gunship was used clumsily during the Thessia mission, but perhaps a more seamless third party interruption might be necessary. It has to feel like there was nothing the player could do to change the situation without feeling gamey, which may be on the writers to figure out.
 

I think one of the biggest reasons Shepard's failure on thessia seemed so ill-conceived is because Shepard had never failed before. There was no precedent. Shepard had always faced such fantastic odds and come out on top, whether its been gunships, thresher-maws or reapers. Kai-Leng's threat was simply too insignificant in comparison which is why the loss felt so forced.

 

Heh, good one.

 

I have a hard time coming up with any way that doesn't involve the NPC "cheating" in some way - grossly increased stats, invulnerability scripts and the like. Hmm.

 

In Mass Effect specifically, I'd probably give that NPC an ability that is similar to the Soldier's adrenaline rush (of course, as the player you'd only see the result of it, not the time dilation effect etc), meaning that when the player pops out of cover, they're hit with a volley of very accurate fire. Since an adrenaline-rush-volley executed by the player can realistically mess up one or more enemies, it might not be a big stretch to argue that the protagonist could be at the receiving end of it too. Same goes for biotic combos like getting Lifted or Lashed and then exploded.

 

I like this idea, give the player the sort of frustration their enemies face.

[SmilesJA]

Every stereotype associated with Jacob Taylor in Mass Effect 3.

[Ahglock]

You just should never face him until he can die in the story. 

 

I learned this as a GM a long time ago, unless i'm willing to have the NPC die don't throw him against the PCs.  Have you chasing the wrong target, it was a ruse to distract you.  Meanwhile Kai Lame pulls off his evil schemes. 

[KainD]

I don't want the ''save the world'' cliche. 

[Mordokai]

Humanity is special.

 

Please, never again. Or at least try not to be so blatant about it.

 

Pretty much everything else is a fair game, as far as I'm concerned.

[themikefest]

I don't think you quite understand what plot armor is. But putting that aside, what solution would you propose exactly, for when the writers want the protagonist to lose a fight to a single human character?

That fight with the wannabe assasin on Thessia was pathetic. All the clown had to do was have the gunship fire at the supports right after Shepard finished talking with TIM. But no. We get a wannabe assassin crying like a baby who needs to recharge. I will admit I laughed when he threw the asari across the screen.

 

That fight was not needed. It amounted to nothing.

 

Another way is while Shepard is fighting the clown, a phantom sneaks in downloading the vi. The phantom gets back on the gunship leaving Leng  to his fate. Leng is killed and Shepard is frustrated that Cerberus gets away with the vi

[KaiserShep]

Politicians are universally corrupt and / or incompetent.

 

I'd say this one probably bugs me the most. 

[The Antagonist]

Insert Bioware cliche chart here