322 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

 

Bioware is progressive, but I think the writers are subject to subconscious stereotyping, which isn't their fault. Instead of coming up with the race of the character at the start, it would be better to define the character's personality and story arc and assign race (and sex) randomly at the end. Otherwise you get characters that either are stereotypes or are attempts to play against stereotype. It would also avoid the awkward peppering of "ethnic language" in the script for no reason. ("Anoleus-sama" , mentions of Vega's abuela).

 

I didn't mind Vega dropping the occasional Spanish word, but Maeko Matsuo's dialogue was so bad it was almost painful. She was written how someone in the West thinks Japanese people talk rather than how they actually speak. She sounded like a cast member from the miniseries Shogun.

[Ahglock]

I'd say this one probably bugs me the most. 

 

I'd say its pretty close to accurate.  But really, its a story it creates Drama and conflict.  And its not like they painted the corporate world as saviors, it was basically here is another unethical experiment gone wrong that shepard has to stop.

[Erstus]

1. Plot armor. "Because the script says so" is quite literally the only reason Kai Leng was a "threat". Everything about that character as he's portrayed in ME3 reeks of terrible writing and "but thou must fail to advance the plot". They literally had to put in an invincible gunship to delay you so he can "win" on Thessia because there's no effing way anybody's going to struggle against him alone in gameplay.
2. Forced drama. Legio​n was a software being who can copy, paste, store and otherwise save his "essence" on separate platforms to be reformed later. So he had to "go to his people"...and? I'm supposed to believe that the Geth, who have only become SMARTER after his sacrifice, can't copy the crucial bits of data that made Legion who he was and create a new Legion with his old memories intact? Or hell, at least a new Legion with a fresh slate? Oh, but a heroic sacrifice is more dramatic. Legion died because they wanted people to be sad even if they secured peace between the Geth and Quarians. Too bad it only made me facepalm.
3. Chil​dren are soooooo innocent and it's sooooooo much more tragic if something bad happens to them. I already made two paragraphs in a separate topic about why I hate the starchild that I'm not going to repeat here. Suffice to say, YOU CAN'T INTRODUCE A RANDOM SCHMUCK IN ONE FRIGGIN SCENE AND EXPECT THE AUDIENCE TO BE HEARTBROKEN WHEN HE GETS ATOMIZED LATER ON NOR CAN YOU PROCEED TO HAVE YOUR MAIN CHARACTER BE HAUNTED BY THE DEATH OF SOME RANDOM SCHMUCK AFTER THAT MAIN CHARACTER HAS ALREADY LOST SO MANY OTHER FRIENDS THAT HE HAD A MUCH DEEPER CONNECTION WITH!!!!!!!

Agreed, especially about #3.

I hate when movies, series, and games try to push some random kid getting killed as emotional or use that example as the protags driving force.

How is this random kid getting killed any different then any of the other hundreds or thousands of people who were killed? It's not.

[Erstus]

Whatever cliche Cerberus was in Mass Effect 2.

I'll take the Mass Effect 2 Cereberus over Mass Effect 3's Cerberus.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Just out of curiosity what does that have to do with America?
 
 
Not sure if this is exactly a trope but the way the morally good decisions were objectively better in ME3 and the dubious ones got you punished is a SERIOUS drag. Betray the krogan? They find out. Destroy the cure in ME2? Well that's gonna make your life more difficult. Kill the rachni queen? Well if you let THIS one go she'll shank you. Choose Morinth over Samara? Well she's gonna be a yakshi.
 
It was lame. It was like Jesus was following me around and wagging a disapproving finger at me for everything I did.

I'm guessing you missed the part where destroying the Geth heretics in ME2 was actually the more rewarding choice. Spare them, and you'll have more opposition in ME3 and it's harder to achieve peace.

Also, in my personal opinion, the ending. Don't pick destroy (because you don't want to kill of your synthetic pals), and you become a Reaper puppet. (Though what's paragon and renegade in the ending is a matter of endless debate.)

[CuriousArtemis]

I didn't mind Vega dropping the occasional Spanish word, but Maeko Matsuo's dialogue was so bad it was almost painful. She was written how someone in the West thinks Japanese people talk rather than how they actually speak. She sounded like a cast member from the miniseries Shogun.

 

Agree with this... Vega was totally fine. Plus FPJ is latino so his voice acting was really good for Vega. He pulled it off. Where I live we have "ethnic" names for family members that we use around others sometimes and it confuses them. So that is normal; you do it without thinking. 

 

On the other hand, globalization tends to weed out these little colloquial words and phrases and accents. Me with my fancy-shmancy education will use fewer regional words and phrases than, say, my cousin who didn't go to college and never left the hometown. So maybe it does seem off for a man so far in the future, surrounded by aliens and hailing culturally from not just a globalized but galactic Earth to still be talking like that. /shrug

 

As for Matsuo, ugh, yes, that was... painful. And then there's Kai Leng with his ninja sword /eyeroll

 

Cliches and tropes I hope ME4 avoids...

 

1. The villain who is bad just to be bad / hungry for power.

No afraid of this too much since TIM was a fantastic villain; his goal, or what he believed was his goal, was the betterment of humanity, and he was willing to do anything to achieve that. Then came the indoctrination and so on. He was so not generic. Same with Sovereign. Sovereign didn't believe it was a god; it essentially WAS a god. It was very pragmatic about what it had to do. It was also beyond the understanding of the player character as well as the player! Truly awesome villains (the reapers).

 

I'm hoping to avoid crap villains like Corypheus, but that's the DA team. Problem is, a lot of the old ME team have been replaced. So I am a "little" worried.

 

2. Character tropes:

The sexy and seductive ice queen - a.k.a. Morrigan, Miranda, etc. 

What can i say, it's just a trope I hate. It feels too fan service. Plus I've never met an actual person who fits that trope. It seems purely fantasy. Female characters are always more likely to be less developed than male characters.

 

The saucy bisexual/gay man - Zevran, Isabela, Dorian

ME series has always been great about avoiding sexuality tropes so I'm not really worried about this at all. It's more of a DA thing.

 

The hardened male veteran - Wrex, Loghain, Zaeed

"I've seen too much and I'm hard and bitter and blah blah blah" I think it's unfair of me to put Wrex in this category because he's actually a fantastic character, really well-developed. But yes, the hardened soldier type. Bleh.

 

The cute girl - Merrill, Leliana, Tali

Again, this seems like more of a love interest option tailored to appeal to the player than a real person. I don't know anyone in real life who fits that trope.

 

Really when it comes to characters I think ME series has done an excellent job at avoiding stereotype. I didn't mention Jack, the "bad girl" with the shaved head, tattoos, foul mouth, and tragic past. She was a walking cliche (and yet I do like her). So they do strike out sometimes. But most of the time they create very realistic and well-rounded characters.

 

Liara gets a lot of heat, but honestly, she seems real to me. I know and have encountered lots of people like her... nerdy, easily distracted, intelligent, but also very warm. She just happens to be in a sexy package because she's asari and she's romance-able.

[KaiserShep]

Not sure if this is exactly a trope but the way the morally good decisions were objectively better in ME3 and the dubious ones got you punished is a SERIOUS drag. Betray the krogan? They find out. Destroy the cure in ME2? Well that's gonna make your life more difficult. Kill the rachni queen? Well if you let THIS one go she'll shank you. Choose Morinth over Samara? Well she's gonna be a yakshi.

 

Well, if it makes you feel any better, you can betray the krogan with none the wiser if you shoot Wrex in ME1. Destroying Maelon's data doesn't make life harder in ME3. The cure can occur regardless, but if you intend to sabotage the cure, then the data is irrelevant anyway, and with Wrex dead and Wreav in the dark, you get the krogan cannon fodder you need to get turian support, and then they're left high and dry while you save the galaxy, though even if Wrex is alive and discovers the betrayal, you still get some support, only minus clan Urdnot. And as mentioned already, destroying the heretics proves to be the superior option.

[Ahglock]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, you can betray the krogan with none the wiser if you shoot Wrex in ME1. Destroying Maelon's data doesn't make life harder in ME3. The cure can occur regardless, but if you intend to sabotage the cure, then the data is irrelevant anyway, and with Wrex dead and Wreav in the dark, you get the krogan cannon fodder you need to get turian support, and then they're left high and dry while you save the galaxy, though even if Wrex is alive and discovers the betrayal, you still get some support, only minus clan Urdnot. And as mentioned already, destroying the heretics proves to be the superior option.

 

Also if you kill wrex(I did) destroy the data(I did) you can convince mordin to sabotage the results and he can live(he did in mine).  I call that a win.

[Fredward]

I'm guessing you missed the part where destroying the Geth heretics in ME2 was actually the more rewarding choice. Spare them, and you'll have more opposition in ME3 and it's harder to achieve peace.

 

Don't the geth wind up being a stronger war asset if you let them live though?

[KaiserShep]

Don't the geth wind up being a stronger war asset if you let them live though?

 

If you rewrite the heretics, the geth are stronger, but this negatively affects the quarians and they are weakened. Destroying the heretics strengthens the quarian war assets. 

[Lonely Heart Poet]

Whatever cliche Cerberus was in Mass Effect 2.

It wasn't a cliche for me, in ME3 they were a massive cliche... In the second game I liked the idea of Cerberus cells. Someone like Miranda was a credible project leader, easily fooled by Cerberus idealism because of her past and her fears.

To the topic: don't make my teammates to worship me. In ME1, 2 and 3 it was balanced quite well, but there is always a risk of it when the hero is around. I want somebody that questions me. Like Jack, Javik and Zaeed.

[ADelusiveMan]

The only cliche I don't want to see is the thing Bioware has been running with in every game since DA:O.  

 

You are a big damn hero, going up against this incredible force of darkness that will destroy anything....and only YOU have the power to stop them! Or the world will be overrun by these Darkspawn Reapers and the world will end and stuff.

 

Personally I hope ME:A has more of a Star Trek Voyager/BSG vibe.  Mass relay f'd up, shoots you over to Andromeda and you're just stuck there.  Could be about finding your way home and survival.  That alone is a complete switch from the Shepard trilogy right there.

[Fredward]

You are a big damn hero, going up against this incredible force of darkness that will destroy anything....and only YOU have the power to stop them! Or the world will be overrun by these Darkspawn Reapers and the world will end and stuff.

 

That wasn't the case in DA2 and look how that turned out.

 

Caveat: I think it turned out just fine but this does not seem to be a popular opinion.

[Lonely Heart Poet]

The only cliche I don't want to see is the thing Bioware has been running with in every game since DA:O.  

 

You are a big damn hero, going up against this incredible force of darkness that will destroy anything....and only YOU have the power to stop them! Or the world will be overrun by these Darkspawn Reapers and the world will end and stuff.

 

Personally I hope ME:A has more of a Star Trek Voyager/BSG vibe.  Mass relay f'd up, shoots you over to Andromeda and you're just stuck there.  Could be about finding your way home and survival.  That alone is a complete switch from the Shepard trilogy right there.

 I agree a lot with you but if I am absolutely honest, I loved to live in tension, I loved my hero cape, I loved the whole story of sacrifice.
So many epic and unforgettable moments...
 

[ADelusiveMan]

That wasn't the case in DA2 and look how that turned out.

 

Caveat: I think it turned out just fine but this does not seem to be a popular opinion.

 

I actually really liked the concept of DA2.  It's a smaller scope and focused more on individuals in the world rather than the events of the wider world.  

 

But somewhere along the line, Bioware dropped the ball with DA2 and just couldn't figure out how to pick it back up.

 

 

 I agree a lot with you but if I am absolutely honest, I loved to live in tension, I loved my hero cape, I loved the whole story of sacrifice.
So many epic and unforgettable moments...
 

 

I like a lot of that stuff too.  But it would be a very interesting experience for Bioware to try to do a plot that is on a much more personal level.  We could still have all those heroic moments and stuff, but it could just be a story like this for example:  The protagonists just want to get home.  They have loved ones back at home and all that, but they're stranded over in the Andromeda Galaxy with no way home, no friendlies, and an enemy that sees them as an invading force that wants to wipe them out.  Because here's the catch:  the characters will be relentlessly trying to achieve their goal of getting home, they eventually discover that the only way to do that would be at great cost to the civilizations of the Andromeda galaxy.  This would be the moment akin to the Sovereign reveal in ME1.  Add that plot to the need to survive without the right supplies to do so (food shortage, etc), the character interactions that are par for the course with Bioware games, exploration of this strange new galaxy, and you've got a gripping RPG right there,  

[Feybrad]

Don't ever let the Universe turn into a "oh-so-realistic" Crapsack World. Let Idealism be justified and don't punish the Captain Picard Way.

[DoomsdayDevice]

If you rewrite the heretics, the geth are stronger, but this negatively affects the quarians and they are weakened. Destroying the heretics strengthens the quarian war assets.

Not only that, but if you intend to make peace between the Geth and the Quarians, it's easier to achieve if you destroyed the heretics. You need a few conditions. You can still make peace if you rewrote the heretics, but it's harder. You'll need to meet more conditions. I can't remember how it breaks down exactly, but that's the gist of it.

[themikefest]

Also if you kill wrex(I did) destroy the data(I did) you can convince mordin to sabotage the results and he can live(he did in mine).  I call that a win.

Why kill Wrex in ME1? Though I don't have a problem with a that. I just don't recruit him in ME1

[themikefest]

Not only that, but if you intend to make peace between the Geth and the Quarians, it's easier to achieve if you destroyed the heretics. You need a few conditions. You can still make peace if you rewrote the heretics, but it's harder. You'll need to meet more conditions. I can't remember how it breaks down exactly, but that's the gist of it.

I've destroyed and rewrote the heretics getting peace both times. It wasn't too hard.

[KaiserShep]

I've destroyed and rewrote the heretics getting peace both times. It wasn't too hard.

 

Just replace hard with "has slightly higher requirements".

[KaiserShep]

Why kill Wrex in ME1? Though I don't have a problem with a that. I just don't recruit him in ME1

 

Well, the confrontation, I feel, is more interesting than simply not having him around. Without him, the companions you have left pretty much lack in any kind of drama with Shepard. 

[Aimi]

The only cliche I don't want to see is the thing Bioware has been running with in every game since DA:O.  
 
You are a big damn hero, going up against this incredible force of darkness that will destroy anything....and only YOU have the power to stop them! Or the world will be overrun by these Darkspawn Reapers and the world will end and stuff.

Don't forget the bit about handing out new political offices like party favors, and having the ability to cause revolutions overturning centuries, even millennia, of precedence, and just generally being the God-Arbiter of All the Things.

[themikefest]

Just replace hard with "has slightly higher requirements".

Its still not hard to get peace

 

Well, the confrontation, I feel, is more interesting than simply not having him around. Without him, the companions you have left pretty much lack in any kind of drama with Shepard. 

I don't see a problem with having less drama.

[KaiserShep]

Its still not hard to get peace 

 

That's the point of my rephrase. Slightly higher requirements doesn't necessarily translate into harder, though if we're going to look at this from the perspective of the protagonist, then it actually would be harder, since Shepard has to do more in order to accomplish the optimal outcome. 

 

I don't see a problem with having less drama.

 

 

I think the characters that end up potentially being at odds with Shepard turn out the most interesting and have the best moments. My absolute favorite confrontation is the one between Shepard and Mordin, especially if Mordin is dead set on curing the genophage, and I feel the dialogue is better when you hide the truth about the Dalatrass' offer from Wrex and Bakara, which I always do.

[Drone223]

An ancient evil treat that only humanity can stop, we don't need another ME game with that.