322 réponses à ce sujet

[Killdren88]

Feeling bad for the antagonist. I don't want to identify with them nor do I want to feel bad for them or their circumstance, nor do I want to understand their point of view.. I want only to feel hatred and contempt for them then the eventual joy of killing them.

[Regan_Cousland]

Feeling bad for the antagonist. I don't want to identify with them nor do I want to feel bad for them or their circumstance, nor do I want to understand their point of view.. I want only to feel hatred and contempt for them then the eventual joy of killing them.

 

So ... Corypheus was your ideal villain? Didn't you find him a little shallow?

[Kappa Neko]

2. Character tropes:

The sexy and seductive ice queen - a.k.a. Morrigan, Miranda, etc. 

What can i say, it's just a trope I hate. It feels too fan service. Plus I've never met an actual person who fits that trope. It seems purely fantasy. Female characters are always more likely to be less developed than male characters.

First of all, do not speak ill of Morrigan! *g* Best DA character ever. No, seriously, they "redeemed" her big time in DAI, great character development into a loving mother. Made me cry.

I totally disagree that female characters are less developed, especially in Bioware games. It's the male companions I have a hard time connecting with because they are such terrible romance options to me. Let's see, the three major reoccurring characters in DA are Flemeth, Morrigan and Leliana. The latter two are the most developed. Also, add Cassandra if you like. Liara totally steals the show in Mass Effect. What male companion did actually matter for the story? Alistair did in DAO, sort of, now might as well not exist anymore. I guess Anders did...

Most of my favorite characters are female.

 

 

The saucy bisexual/gay man - Zevran, Isabela, Dorian

ME series has always been great about avoiding sexuality tropes so I'm not really worried about this at all. It's more of a DA thing.

Do not speak ill of the only mage who's not crazy, either. Dorian is fabulous, this is a fact. Though I admit his personal storyline made me cringe. But Bioware made up for that with Dorian's ambivalent relationship to Tevinter. One of the few male characters I adore without reservation. Zevran on the other hand... Isabela was one of the less crazy ones in DA2, I give her points for that.

 

 

The hardened male veteran - Wrex, Loghain, Zaeed

"I've seen too much and I'm hard and bitter and blah blah blah" I think it's unfair of me to put Wrex in this category because he's actually a fantastic character, really well-developed. But yes, the hardened soldier type. Bleh.

Yeah, never been fond of that type. The krogan as a race still make me roll my eyes. Wrex is cool though, for a krogan... and since the Citadel DLC I find Zaeed adorable. He had a good sense of humor and a great voice actor.

Loghain is the sort of underdeveloped gray but mostly black character that puts me to sleep.
 

 

The cute girl - Merrill, Leliana, Tali

Again, this seems like more of a love interest option tailored to appeal to the player than a real person. I don't know anyone in real life who fits that trope.

Right, Leliana is such a cute spy/assassin... Downright adorable in DAI.

Merrill and Tali (and also Liara) ARE sweet girls. It happens to be my favorite type of character (male and female) though, so I don't mind. I'm very absent-minded, forgetful and socially awkward myself, so I sort of identify with that type.

 

All of the types you listed do exist, just maybe not to such an extreme degree.

[Killdren88]

So ... Corypheus was your ideal villain? Didn't you find him a little shallow?

Harbinger actually. ME2. Not the butchered version of the Reapers.

[SNascimento]

Personally I think a character can fit in a "trope" and still be much more than that. Wrex is a great example, at first he might be the soldier veteran guy, but becomes much more than that.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Right. But why does the 'truth' they're telling in this case be so one sided? Why do good resolutions generally align with morally acceptable decisions and bad resolutions go with morally questionable actions? If I managed to save the quarians and the geth why doesn't a misunderstandings/skirmishes between fringe elements cause a drop in the combat effectiveness of both? Why doesn't Morinth show up at the Ardat-Yakshi monastery instead of Samara and get captured there or something? Instead of simply being a throwaway enemy at the end. When does Wrex (or Wreave or whoever) turn into a spymaster?

 

Actions having consequences isn't objectionable, 'good' actions always leading to good/objectively better resolutions is objectionable.

 

1) choosing Morinth was extremely difficult to do, and was sort of like choosing Hannibal Lecter over Clarice. Now is that something morally ambiguous or just a black or white choice?

 

2) Wrex finds out because of something that wasn't told to the player - Wrex probably looked for Bakara and discovered Mordin's corpse and did an autopsy - Wrex, unlike his brother isn't stupid, and probably found scarring on bones consistent with a weapon - so there's that. Wreav will not find out if you talk Mordin into leaving. If you shoot Mordin, he will find out. Moral of the story - Dead men do tell tales.

 

3) Originally there was going to be a mission with Admiral Xen on the Citadel, but it was never written due to having to write the Extended Cut ending.

 

As a side to this, you can be an absolute ass to  your squad and they will still idolize you because you are The Shepard. Yes, Steve will die.

 

Also the game was written by Canadians who are polite and apologize for just about everything.

[CuriousArtemis]

All of the types you listed do exist, just maybe not to such an extreme degree.

 

Wow you ripped my whole post apart, that'll show me!

 

I didn't mean to offend anyone, just listing things as I thought of them ^^ And never said I disliked Morrigan or any of the others, agree she was handled well in DAI. I was saying I didn't like these particular tropes, and tried to give past examples. Some examples fit better than others... the intent was not to offend or diss anyone's favorite characters. But just to see I don't want to say anymore "ice queens" or "sassy gay/bi person" b/c I'm tired of those tropes.

[SmilesJA]

Wow you ripped my whole post apart, that'll show me!

 

I didn't mean to offend anyone, just listing things as I thought of them ^^ And never said I disliked Morrigan or any of the others, agree she was handled well in DAI. I was saying I didn't like these particular tropes, and tried to give past examples. Some examples fit better than others... the intent was not to offend or diss anyone's favorite characters. But just to see I don't want to say anymore "ice queens" or "sassy gay/bi person" b/c I'm tired of those tropes.

 

Honestly Morrigan and Miranda were one of the best developed female characters Bioware has created. I don't mind cliches as long as you make them interesting and not do what they did to Jacob in Mass Effect 3! 

[Regan_Cousland]

Harbinger actually. ME2. Not the butchered version of the Reapers.

 

I did, also, prefer the Reapers when they were unstoppable forces of destruction whose motivations were (allegedly) incomprehensible to puny organic minds. An invincible enemy from the darkest reaches of space that couldn't be reasoned with or even understood was terrifying in the best possible way.

But not all villains benefit from being heartless, relentless murder-bots. Some are better with layers and understandable motivations. For instance, I found the Illusive Man to be a far, far more compelling "antagonist" in ME2 when much of what he said made sense; in ME3, when he decided to kill everyone who stood in the way of his absurd goals, he became boring. 

So while I don't necessarily want to feel bad for the villain in Andromeda, I wouldn't mind it if he has at least a few redeeming qualities and goals that are understandable -- if not acceptable. 

[KaiserShep]

Also the game was written by Canadians who are polite and apologize for just about everything.

[holdenagincourt]

It's not the tropes you use, it's the execution.

 

Even the "overused" "damsel in distress" trope can be exciting if done right.

 

I agree with this. A lot of the responses here seem to be more about disliked story elements rather than about something being problematic (assertion one) because it is a cliche (assertion two).

 

Would Jacob really be an appreciably better character if he were white? Or would he still be fairly bland and colorless, if likable enough in ME2, only to apparently suffer a frontal lobotomy in ME3? Poor writing doesn't really need the assistance of cliches to stink, while skilled and astute writing uses those cliches to its advantage.

[Altair_ShepardN7]

 

Cliches that I personally find incredibly aggravating and overused.

The main character has amnesia 

A character dies-- oh wait, they're actually alive and it surprises nobody

A villain that wants to take over the world (or galaxy as it may be) and reshape it in their image

Lifeless fetch quests

I assume you are Dragon Age: Inquisition's #1 fan, right? 

[Lady Artifice]

The word "trope" makes me want to sh*t nuggets.

 

Why? 

[karushna5]

Not too fond of the Tough Girl is secretly ashamed/awkward with femininity. Make her just tough tomboy all the way or unabashedly into the things shes into, otherwise its kinda cringe worthy. Ashley did it pretty well though.

 

Awkward nerds

 

Romance Interests still in mourning their last lover especially if they have kids(Jack, Anders, Cortez, Isabela, Zevran, Sky, Thane)

 

Hero-worshipping the Main Character by their peers.

[Terca]

Space Jesus is one trope I'd like to see gone.

[Il Divo]

The only cliche I don't want to see is the thing Bioware has been running with in every game since DA:O.  

 

You are a big damn hero, going up against this incredible force of darkness that will destroy anything....and only YOU have the power to stop them! Or the world will be overrun by these Darkspawn Reapers and the world will end and stuff.

 

Personally I hope ME:A has more of a Star Trek Voyager/BSG vibe.  Mass relay f'd up, shoots you over to Andromeda and you're just stuck there.  Could be about finding your way home and survival.  That alone is a complete switch from the Shepard trilogy right there.

 

They've actually been running with that one since at least KotOR. Even longer depending on how you count BG.

[Queen Skadi]

Cliches that I personally find incredibly aggravating and overused.

The main character has amnesia 

 

While the main character having amnesia is a pretty common trope in video games I don't think it is fair to call developers out on this as its use suggests that the developers using it at least understand the fundamental differences between video game and movie story telling (Something that the current generation of Bioware writers (and indeed many other video game writers) could use a crash course in). While there are other methods that can be used to achieve a similar state amnesia is probably one of the most effective plot points for putting the player and the character in the same state of mind setting the stage for a journey of discovery that is experienced by both the player and the character allowing the player to better inhabit the role of the character as they both discover the same things at the same time. It is why Amnesia is such a common trope among games that feature the adventures of an already established character, it allows the player to play the amnesia card when recurring characters mention previous events in a character's life so as to not feel alienated from the role they are playing. The amnesia plot points in games like the Witcher or Gothic 2 are there mostly for the players who either hadn't read the books or hadn't played the original Gothic. Also when done right the amnesia angle can make for a great storytelling experience as shown in games like Planescape Torment.

 

 

 

 

As for tropes I personally hate I am reluctant to mention any as most of the time it isn't the tropes themselves that are the problem but rather their execution, and it is very hard to find a plot point that does not fall under one trope or another. If I were to mention any it would be "MURICA (or in Mass Effect's case Humanity) is the only one capable of saving the world (galaxy)".

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

But you know what it's gonna be:

 

* our intrepid character will have an unusual experience that makes them special (bear some kind of mark; have some kind of vision; or be invaded by some alien technology)

 

* because of this event he/she is the only one who can decipher the ancient writings of blah blah blah that forecast the ruin of the galaxy.

 

* no one believes them except for a small group of people who were there or who have been studying said ancients.

 

* the big bad that was forecast in the writings comes (or something that foreshadows their arrival comes) and our hero and their band of followers defeats them saving the galaxy from doom - our hero may have to sacrifice him/herself, or not depending upon choices you make during the story.

 

The End.

[afgncaap7]

I don't think you quite understand what plot armor is. But putting that aside, what solution would you propose exactly, for when the writers want the protagonist to lose a fight to a single human character?

 

How exactly is his survival being assured by the plot up until the moment it's "ok" to kill him despite the fact that Shepard is clearly the superior opponent anything other than plot armor?

Simple solution? Just have the putz reach his goals BEFORE Shepard is on the scene. That one little change and Kai Leng actually becomes a believable threat simply by virtue of being one step ahead. Instead, we have to watch Shepard glare menacingly at him and do absolutely nothing during the fight between him and Thane and then we just have to accept that Shepard got his *** kicked on Thessia despite us obliterating Kai Leng in moments during​ gameplay and suddenly being unable to handle one lousy, stinking gunship despite the dozen we swatted out of the sky in ME2.

[Remix-General Aetius]

oh god yes yes NO PLOT ARMOR stupidities.

 

throw it out the airlock.

[BabyPuncher]

How exactly is his survival being assured by the plot up until the moment it's "ok" to kill him despite the fact that Shepard is clearly the superior opponent anything other than plot armor?

Simple solution? Just have the putz reach his goals BEFORE Shepard is on the scene. That one little change and Kai Leng actually becomes a believable threat simply by virtue of being one step ahead. Instead, we have to watch Shepard glare menacingly at him and do absolutely nothing during the fight between him and Thane and then we just have to accept that Shepard got his *** kicked on Thessia despite us obliterating Kai Leng in moments during​ gameplay and suddenly being unable to handle one lousy, stinking gunship despite the dozen we swatted out of the sky in ME2.

 

Firstly, because the frustration over Kai Leng is a product of gameplay, not of story. Well, that coupled with players being neurotically incapable of accepting 'their' character losing.

 

Secondly, that's not the question I asked. I asked how developers can have the protagonist lose a fair fight to a single equally sized character. The enemy wins because he is superior, and that's all there is to it. So no reinforcements, no support, no gizmos or knockout gas or fancy tech, no stealth. And as I said, it must be a human sized enemy. Slightly bigger than the protagonist at the very, very most. He wins honestly because he is better. Simple as that.

 

Any suggestions?

 

And really, this should be a solution applicable to any setting. Whether it's fantasy or science fiction or modern day or what have you.
 

[Fredward]

1) choosing Morinth was extremely difficult to do, and was sort of like choosing Hannibal Lecter over Clarice. Now is that something morally ambiguous or just a black or white choice?

 

I find Samara detestable. She's a pureblood who had not one, not two but THREE daughters. Now I'm not entirely sure how far they are separated in age but I know  a yakshi displays her proclivities by puberty so I think it's entirely possible that she knew she was giving birth to them and continued anyway. Two of these go into seclusion to live the rest of their lives basically as inmates because of what they are, the third decides to say **** that and doesn't. What does Samara do? Joins a cult that tells her it's okay to kill her daughter. She obviates PERSONAL responsibility for her actions by joining something larger/more important than herself that does all her thinking and moralizing for her. 'The Code demands your death' I happen to want it too but yeah mostly the Code sorry Morrie!

 

Now I have no delusions that Morinth is a terrible person and it's refreshing that she doesn't either. I picked her the first time I played it and would have stuck with it if I didn't lose content. I am rather a content ******.

[Remix-General Aetius]

I find Samara detestable. She's a pureblood who had not one, not two but THREE daughters. Now I'm not entirely sure how far they are separated in age but I know  a yakshi displays her proclivities by puberty so I think it's entirely possible that she knew she was giving birth to them and continued anyway. Two of these go into seclusion to live the rest of their lives basically as inmates because of what they are, the third decides to say **** that and doesn't. What does Samara do? Joins a cult that tells her it's okay to kill her daughter. She obviates PERSONAL responsibility for her actions by joining something larger/more important than herself that does all her thinking and moralizing for her. 'The Code demands your death' I happen to want it too but yeah mostly the Code sorry Morrie!

 

Now I have no delusions that Morinth is a terrible person and it's refreshing that she doesn't either. I picked her the first time I played it and would have stuck with it if I didn't lose content. I am rather a content ******.

 

I actually found that I relate to Morinth a great deal and that scares me.

[mickey111]

There aren't any bad tropes, just bad writing

 

Good example: Shepard was special even before the eden prime beacon as indicated by the fact he gets 3 skill points per level when everyone else on his team (who canonically were all considered very good in their own right) got only 2. It that extra skill that got shepard into SPECTRE, and SPECTRE that enabled Shepard to become the Citadels right hand man which meant Shepard required special privlege and freedoms to be effective in that role. It's a good example of a character being considered essential for well explained reasons and not simply because "Bioware said so". 

 

Bad Example: Meredith turned into a maniac, but it's not her fault! The lyrium made her do it! Terrible writing. The lyrium is just an example of indoctrination done wrong. We actually knew quite a bit about indoctrination before the end of Mass Effect 1, and it didn't just come from an inanimate object that you pick up in a fetch quest or two to sell for money.

[The Hierophant]

Brainwashed antagonists.