Politicians are universally corrupt and / or incompetent.
But they ARE. 
Anyway, there's always going to be cliches, but the one I hated the most were:
Cutscene incompetence (Kai Lame, Thane)
Forced Drama (Legion's death, the brat at the start of ME3)
You get kill and but get resurrected, because plot. If you're gonna kill someone, have the balls to do it for real.
And that's it, ME had a lot of cliches but at least they are served right...mostly
You get kill and but get resurrected, because plot. If you're gonna kill someone, have the balls to do it for real.
Is 'plot' somehow not a legitimate justification to do something?
Anyway, bit of a silly analogy, since we see Shepard being resurrected before it's confirmed he or she actually died.
Anyway, bit of a silly analogy, since we see Shepard being resurrected before it's confirmed he or she actually died.
Did you miss the part when he suffocate in space before the Lazarus Project?
Did you miss the part when he suffocate in space before the Lazarus Project?
10 whole seconds before? With breathing the last thing we hear?
Point is, the player never developers an expectation of 'Shepard is dead and therefore gone.' So the idea that the narrative somehow went back on its word is false.
Firstly, because the frustration over Kai Leng is a product of gameplay, not of story. Well, that coupled with players being neurotically incapable of accepting 'their' character losing.
Secondly, that's not the question I asked. I asked how developers can have the protagonist lose a fair fight to a single equally sized character. The enemy wins because he is superior, and that's all there is to it. So no reinforcements, no support, no gizmos or knockout gas or fancy tech, no stealth. And as I said, it must be a human sized enemy. Slightly bigger than the protagonist at the very, very most. He wins honestly because he is better. Simple as that.
Any suggestions?
And really, this should be a solution applicable to any setting. Whether it's fantasy or science fiction or modern day or what have you.
1st of all, it is a VIDEOGAME. It is not a book. That means that what happens in gameplay is VERY relevant to what happens in the story. You think it's an issue of people being unable to accept that Shepard could conceivably lose? Have you actually read a single criticism about Kai Leng? Did you just miss the part where Thane didn't shoot him in the head when he had Leng dead-to-rights? Did you just miss the part where Shepard and his entire team stood and watched a half-dead Thane fight for his life instead of backing him up? Did you just miss the part where Kai Leng corners himself in an elevator and Shepard's team didn't throw in every grenade they had? Did you just miss the part where Kai Leng dominated Shepard's team in a cutscene after he got stomped in the gameplay that happened moments before? Did you just miss the part where the plot stopped protecting him and Shepard's team easily killed him in the Cerberus HQ, proving that Shepard's team could've easily done it before and just didn't? Did you even play the game?
I gave you an incredibly simple answer for how Kai Leng could've been a legitimate threat. If it MUST be how he could win a fair fight, then the cold, hard truth is...........he can't. In case you didn't notice, the moment he got in a fair fight, he died...rapidly. Do you realize just how pathetic the fight on Thessia was? Not only did he have to hide behind a gunship, they had to make THE GUNSHIP ITSELF impossible to destroy because Shepard had already proven many times that he's perfectly capable of destroying gunships. Do you not understand the implication? Just stacking the odds wasn't enough, Kai Leng literally needed a saving throw from the developers themselves to succeed on Thessia. He. Can't. Beat. Shepard. That is precisely why every scene he's in is so cringe-worthy. You just have to pretend it makes sense for Shepard to lose against him when it is made clear in the very same game that Kai Leng simply cannot beat Shepard without the videogame equivalent of divine intervention.
Do you understand now? People don't have an issue with Shepard losing, they have an issue with Shepard losing to somebody that can't beat Shepard. Imagine if you were playing an Arkham game and Batman suddenly couldn't beat Joker and a room full of thugs in basic combat. No explanation for why, you just suddenly can't. That is exactly what happened on Thessia.
Do the grasp the concept that a character becomes whoever the writers want him to be? The Mass Effect universe is not a real place and Leng is not a real person. Everything that happens happens because the developers make it happen. If they write a character to be weak, he's weak. If they write him to be strong, he's strong.
Forget Leng if you want. I didn't even mention Leng in my question. Replace him whoever you want. The question remains. How do the developers have the protagonist lose in an honest fight to an equally sized character?
I don't think you quite understand what plot armor is. But putting that aside, what solution would you propose exactly, for when the writers want the protagonist to lose a fight to a single human character?
Personally I think how Saren did it is a great example of how to do it. At a certain point in the fight the enemy does something the protagonist doesn't expect(a powerful pulse in Saren's case) that puts the encounter in the enemy's favor.
Can't really remember how that went. I do remember Saren being strong enough to lift Shepard with one hand. Bit big and strong for the kind of antagonist I have in mind.
Forget Leng if you want. I didn't even mention Leng in my question. Replace him whoever you want. The question remains. How do the developers have the protagonist lose in an honest fight to an equally sized character?
By having the bad guy be better than them? Alternatively: why introduce a situation in which your protagonist HAS to lose in a fair fight with an equal sized enemy?
10 whole seconds before? With breathing the last thing we hear?
Point is, the player never developers an expectation of 'Shepard is dead and therefore gone.' So the idea that the narrative somehow went back on its word is false.
Well, there is the whole descending into the atmosphere thing, but anyone who watched the ads probably just assumed Shepard was going to come back somehow anyway.
By having the bad guy be better than them? Alternatively: why introduce a situation in which your protagonist HAS to lose in a fair fight with an equal sized enemy?
There is a point there though. Like, how is the bad guy presented as being better in a way that's sensible, and how do the developers create a situation in which this character can be beaten without it feeling like a cheap hand wave? I suppose the only real solution to the Leng issue is to simply not have there be any combat with him until we are actually capable of ending him for good. I sort of like themikefest's idea of Leng simply having the gunship attack the temple right off the bat, though that would take away the opportunity of putting in more exposition with The Illusive Man.
I sort of like themikefest's idea of Leng simply having the gunship attack the temple right off the bat, though that would take away the opportunity of putting in more exposition with The Illusive Man.
More importantly, it cripples the crucial point that the protagonist simply isn't as good. Hence my insistence on no tricks or gimmicks. The enemy needs to succeed because they are superior.
Or to be more precise, the writers need to have the option of the enemy succeeding because they are superior.
Can't really remember how that went. I do remember Saren being strong enough to lift Shepard with one hand. Bit big and strong for the kind of antagonist I have in mind.
Saren is only about seven feet tall, so is human-sized.
Do the grasp the concept that a character becomes whoever the writers want him to be? The Mass Effect universe is not a real place and Leng is not a real person. Everything that happens happens because the developers make it happen. If they write a character to be weak, he's weak. If they write him to be strong, he's strong.
Forget Leng if you want. I didn't even mention Leng in my question. Replace him whoever you want. The question remains. How do the developers have the protagonist lose in an honest fight to an equally sized character?
Whether or not it's real is completely irrelevant. You can't create a situation that breaks the established rules of your fictional world and expect your fanbase to be OK with it. You've spent an entire trilogy up to that point learning exactly what Shepard is capable of overcoming and then they just take a **** over the established "reality" of that fictional world. They didn't write Kai Leng to be strong enough to beat Shepard. Like I said, he needed actual intervention from an unseen force to win that fight. That's how bad his plot armor is.
How can developers have a protagonist lose in a fair fight? Maybe he was a worse fighter. Maybe he was distracted. Maybe he had bad luck. Maybe his equipment malfunctioned at a bad time. Maybe he got sloppy. Maybe he wasn't used to fighting that kind of opponent. Maybe he wasn't used to the battlefield. Maybe he couldn't adapt quickly enough. Maybe he couldn't last long enough. You act as if no protagonist has ever lost a fair fight. There's a hundred ways developers can realistically have a protagonist lose without dying. Hell, sometimes they don't even need to worry about that.
There is a point there though. Like, how is the bad guy presented as being better in a way that's sensible, and how do the developers create a situation in which this character can be beaten without it feeling like a cheap hand wave? I suppose the only real solution to the Leng issue is to simply not have there be any combat with him until we are actually capable of ending him for good. I sort of like themikefest's idea of Leng simply having the gunship attack the temple right off the bat, though that would take away the opportunity of putting in more exposition with The Illusive Man.
I liked another person's idea of Leng serving as a distraction while one of his phantom's snatches the VI. He outsmarts the player which is, at least for me, more aggravating than that fight. And there are plenty of ways he could beat the player (ie be better) in one fight and lose in another. Maybe he got injured along the way, maybe his objectives in the fight differ (he had to keep you busy/snatch something in one fight and the other one is to the death), maybe something just happened that makes him question his commitment to the cause, maybe the player gets lucky, maybe the player has more help in the second fight, maybe the player cheats, maybe they spent some time training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and they can actually beat him fairly now. maybe Leng or someone like him could have been implemented from the first game where s/he completely outstrips the player and over the course of the following games the gap between skills narrow until the player finally beats them etc.
I suppose that's a possibility...not terribly fond of it, though. Dragon Age is a little more abstract over what kind of damage the characters are actually doing. I don't like the idea of a character surviving dozens of headshots because they're "level 50" or whatever. Levels are obviously a gameplay abstraction that doesn't exist in the story.
Still, if there was a perfect solution to this sort of thing, someone would have found it by now. It may be the best compromise available.
I think something close to their original plan might have worked.
If I remember correctly, in an early draft of the script Kai Leng had planted explosives in the temple that he triggers, causing part of the floor to collapse. Maybe have Kai Leng fall back as the player 'defeats' him in gameplay. Shepard pursues, only to be lured into trap, as Kai Leng detonates the explosives. While Shepard is struggling not to fall to his/her death or rescue a squadmate, Kai Leng makes off with the MacGuffin. The fight then would have played out as Kai Leng having outsmarted Shepard by pretending to lose the fight, using it to lure Shepard into an a trap.
Personally, I didn't like how they portrayed the Illlusive Man's character in ME3. In the previous game, he was really convincing and right when he talked and that made me grow some kind of respect for him, although I knew his intentions were pretty sick. However, in ME3 he was just "the bad guy".
In ME Andromeda I wouldn't like to see those archetypes. If Bioware wants me immersed in this world, its characters must behave like a rational being would. I want to be interested in their opinions, making my own judgement about who should I consider friend or foe. Hollywood movies do the other way enough times already.
Wow you ripped my whole post apart, that'll show me!
I didn't mean to offend anyone, just listing things as I thought of them ^^ And never said I disliked Morrigan or any of the others, agree she was handled well in DAI. I was saying I didn't like these particular tropes, and tried to give past examples. Some examples fit better than others... the intent was not to offend or diss anyone's favorite characters. But just to see I don't want to say anymore "ice queens" or "sassy gay/bi person" b/c I'm tired of those tropes.
Please don't take it to heart, I was mostly being tongue-in-cheek. I thought that was obvious, but if not I apologize.
I have yet to encounter a character that isn't a trope of some kind. Or ANYTHING original when it comes to Bioware tbh. But like others have said, it's what one does with it that's important. Bioware excels at presentation, not creativity. I'm fine with that.
Bioware characters usually start out as clichés, but then morph into something more layered. And by the end of the game I always find myself caring a great deal about them, totally enthralled by their friendships and rivalries.
I'm actually not too fond of the sassy gay/bi character either, but Dorian stole my heart. So to me it really boils down to presentation. Didn't like Zevran sassy, adored Dorian sassy. Hated Miranda for the longest time, loved Morrigan right away.
Also, voice acting plays into it BIG time for me. Zevran made me think of Puss in Boots, awful! I'm sure I would have liked Morrigan a lot less in DAO (she was borderline psycho at times) if Claudia Black wasn't so fantastic.I crush on voices big time.
I think it comes down to how well those cliches and tropes are executed and I as a player can relate to those aspects. People above mentioned Zevran and Dorian and "sassy gay/bi characters." I found Zevran incredibly annoying and his backstory completely unrelatable. Others I know feel differently. Dorian is unquestionably one of my favorite Bioware characters and his daddy issues (Bioware sure does love that aspect) was executed in such a way that I could relate with...which had little to do with his homosexuality and much more to do with rejecting the values and life his father envisioned for him. Of course, much of what we think makes a story good is subjective, and cliche and common tropes are pretty much unavoidable. Maybe the best we can hope for are writers to look for unique ways to utilize those cliches and tropes to make them interesting to the audience.
Forget Leng if you want. I didn't even mention Leng in my question. Replace him whoever you want. The question remains. How do the developers have the protagonist lose in an honest fight to an equally sized character?
Can't you come up with an answer? Or you just want others to come up with an answer and then post how wrong he/she is because you don't like it?
As far as fighting Leng. The fight added nothing. If anything I would've just had Leng tell the gunship to fire at the supports right after Shepard and TIM finish talking. Take the vi and be done.
Another way is Leng fires his whatever that knocks out both squadmates leaving him and Shepard to fight one-on-one. As the fight is happening, a phantom exits the gunship in cloak mode and downloads the VI. Phantom gets back on the gunship and leaves. Leng is left to his fate. Without the gunship to protect him while crying like a baby while recharging, Shepard kills him
I'm actually not too fond of the sassy gay/bi character either, but Dorian stole my heart. So to me it really boils down to presentation. Didn't like Zevran sassy, adored Dorian sassy. Hated Miranda for the longest time, loved Morrigan right away.
Also, voice acting plays into it BIG time for me. Zevran made me think of Puss in Boots, awful! I'm sure I would have liked Morrigan a lot less in DAO (she was borderline psycho at times) if Claudia Black wasn't so fantastic.I crush on voices big time.
I think it comes down to how well those cliches and tropes are executed and I as a player can relate to those aspects. People above mentioned Zevran and Dorian and "sassy gay/bi characters." I found Zevran incredibly annoying and his backstory completely unrelatable. Others I know feel differently. Dorian is unquestionably one of my favorite Bioware characters and his daddy issues (Bioware sure does love that aspect) was executed in such a way that I could relate with...which had little to do with his homosexuality and much more to do with rejecting the values and life his father envisioned for him. Of course, much of what we think makes a story good is subjective, and cliche and common tropes are pretty much unavoidable. Maybe the best we can hope for are writers to look for unique ways to utilize those cliches and tropes to make them interesting to the audience.
Ha well it must all come down to personal preference because I ADORE Zevran (his backstory, his voice, his look, his personality, his romance) and dislike Dorian quite a bit; I am definitely not a Morrigan fan and do actually like Miranda; once I put her in a reasonable outfit I can take her seriously as a character (and try to ignore the fact that she looks like she had major botox injection accidents all over her face).
Why kill Wrex in ME1? Though I don't have a problem with a that. I just don't recruit him in ME1
The shy nerdy chick that wants to screw you.
Quite annoying.
Also let's have some rational bad guys with rational goals and not "LOL INDOCTRINATED" meatbags please.
The pixie/shy nerdy chick that wants to screw you.
Quite annoying.
Yeah, Asuka for life.
Eh, I think someone like Mari would make things more fun overall.
Retour en haut
