88 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumix19]

I seriously doubt though that all demons were spawned by the mortal races though and that a sizable number weren't spawned by the actions of the ancient elves, especially when you take into the accounts of  the sort of things the elven god kings and their close followers liked to pull off and inflict.

If they could see the visible spiritual reaction to their actions would they have? Besides there are instances of spirits living harmoniously with them Vir Dirthara: Attentive Listeners.

 

But you're right there might be, though it has been a long time since and a lot of crap that went on without the Ancient Elves. Tevinter's absolute disregard for life, slavery, crushing of the Dales, simple starvation.

[myahele]

Let's not forget that Ancient Elves bound spirits as well

[ModernAcademic]

Simple. Solas wants to reshape reality from the Fade. And as long as the Veil exists, he cannot do it.

[Nixou]

Theory 1: This isn't a veil-less world, its a world with a shattered veil. Demons still have to pass through the veil and this still twists them.

 

 

That's the feeling I got as well.

 

***

 

When you "wake up", the dream world you were in ends.

 

 

Have you ever had episodic dreams? I have.

 

Spoiler

It started when I was four years old: in my dream I was walking with my parents on an oversized and empty highway, surrounded by enormous buildings, several kilometers wide and much taller than that and completely empty, expect all the devices inside would still be working perfectly. And the thing is, I never stopped walking.

 

It's not a recurring dream, where the same scenario happens over and over again. Here I dream that I go from point A to point B, then from point B to point C, etc, etc, etc, etc...

 

Spoiler

One night, I'd be dreaming reaching a part of the giant highway bordering an enormous erg. A few month later I'd dream reaching a superstructure between the highway and the desert that looks like a cross between Argo City (the movie version) and a luxury cruiser on steroid filled with potted trees whose branches were edible and tasted like salted bacon, then something like two years after that I'd dream reaching the top of an observation tower then seeing from the tower windows the desert from before being entirely surrounded by tall buildings (think many famous central park pictures except with sand instead of a garden) while the structure with edible trees looked now like a tiny marble on the desert's edge.

 

Every time I have that dream, it picks up where I left it the time before and keeps going from here (even if sometimes months or even years separate the nights when I have this dream) and has done so for nearly three decades, to the point that I'm now convinced that whatever dream world my boyish self cooked up in his sleep will keep going until either death or dementia dismantle my brain.

 

Long story short: when you wake up, your dream world doesn't always end.

[Lumix19]

Let's not forget that Ancient Elves bound spirits as well

Possibly not against their purpose (or even will).

[Cobra's_back]

Solas' plan is to destroy the Veil. This does not mean that demons will start rampaging and slaying mortals every which way you look. They would remain as spirits. Spirits only become demons when their purpose becomes corrupt. This is not Solas' goal, and it is unlikely to happen, given his knowledge on spirits.

 

What Solas wants is to bring back the days in which his people thrived. Back then, people and spirits co-existed. He wants that back. The destruction of the world will come from mortal hands, people fighting and warring between themselves, not from spirits.

Problem is he believes ALL of you will die. He states as your world burns.............

 

You can ask why everyone has to die. He states it would be easy to tell you but he can't. Crazy!

[Cobra's_back]

I think the concept is that without the veil, there would be no real 'demons'.    Demons are a corruption of a spirit that seeks to enter the world across the veil.   However, once there and cut off from the fade they go 'crazy'.     Solas says in one of your conversations that spirits seek to join the living and demons are that dream gone wrong.  

 

It is the veil that is the problem.   The act of crossing it whether through weak areas, blood magic, or pulled through rifts corrupts the spirit.   That is what Solas found an abomination about the world Cory created.  

 

In Solas' view about the world without a veil, he describes spirits like forces of nature.   The wind, or a powerful river.  

He is wrong. Spirits can be corrupted by humans and elves. 

[Incantrix]

We also have to keep in mind that not all spirits are exactly benevolent either

 

There the spirit of Valor that will go around and challenge "worthy opponents" then there's also that Spirit of command who's sole purpose is to give orders to people

 

Yeah but they literally will only challenge one who could actually fight back. And according to what we've experienced, the spirit of command rewards those who carry out their orders. Furthermore, the spirit of command didn't really have any malicious goals in mind. 

[Cobra's_back]

We should keep in mind that there are already demons in the fade along with spirits and some such as the nightmare have grown extremely powerful feeding on the negative emotions of mortals over thousands of years, something that is only going to become worse if Solas brings down the veil which he himselves states will likely cause countless numbers of people to die horribly.

Good point! I think he is counting on it, because he is planning our extinction anyway.

 

Just a thought, He plans our extinction so that nightmare doesn't have anything to feed on anymore. The ancient elves get a clean start.

[Ashagar]

That is possible though other forces like such as the maker, the avvar gods and other entities might take issue with that for good or ill. Hmm I wonder if it was not Corypheus's plans but Solas and his plans that drew the attention of the mysterious people across the sea given his plans wouldn't bode well for them.

[Incantrix]

Good point! I think he is counting on it, because he is planning our extinction anyway.

 

Just a thought, He plans our extinction so that nightmare doesn't have anything to feed on anymore. The ancient elves get a clean start.

 

I'm struggling to see where deleting almost everyone including elven kind will be a "fresh start".Unless he plans on just saving the elves but even then, not all dalish will trust him and alienage elves are mostly andrastian anyway. 

 

Then you have elves like my Inquisitor who don't even give two shits about gods in the first place.

[Ellawynn]

Let's not forget that Ancient Elves bound spirits as well

 That's true, although I wonder if the primary problem with binding spirits now is that you force them to cross the Veil, which Solas says will turn almost any spirit into a demon. Such a problem wouldn't have existed in their time. 

 

Good point! I think he is counting on it, because he is planning our extinction anyway.

 

Just a thought, He plans our extinction so that nightmare doesn't have anything to feed on anymore. The ancient elves get a clean start.

 

*Sigh* Why would Solas want people to die, though? He says himself that he does not want people to die, but they likely will, and he finds that acceptable price. It's still a terrible thing, yes, but he's not gleefully and specifically planning the extinction of mankind/mortals/whatever. If he could save everyone, he would. (Well, except maybe the Qunari) But he doesn't think he can.

 

Honestly, Ghostbusters, sometimes I wonder if we played the same game or if you got a defective copy where Solas is replaced with The Lich.

[Cobra's_back]

I'm struggling to see where deleting almost everyone including elven kind will be a "fresh start".Unless he plans on just saving the elves but even then, not all dalish will trust him and alienage elves are mostly andrastian anyway. 

 

Then you have elves like my Inquisitor who don't even give two shits about gods in the first place.

Ancient Elves and spirits seem to be his concern. 

[Cobra's_back]

 That's true, although I wonder if the primary problem with binding spirits now is that you force them to cross the Veil, which Solas says will turn almost any spirit into a demon. Such a problem wouldn't have existed in their time. 

 

 

*Sigh* Why would Solas want people to die, though? He says himself that he does not want people to die, but they likely will, and he finds that acceptable price. It's still a terrible thing, yes, but he's not gleefully and specifically planning the extinction of mankind/mortals/whatever. If he could save everyone, he would. (Well, except maybe the Qunari) But he doesn't think he can.

 

Honestly, Ghostbusters, sometimes I wonder if we played the same game or if you got a defective copy where Solas is replaced with The Lich.

I tried all dialogue options as a romanced Elf, and he does state your people need to die. My approval was so high it stop giving me approval. I'm not the only one that heard him say it.

[Cobra's_back]

I think the ancient Elves already knew how to deal with spirits remaining as such. It's only mundane races like humans who corrupt spirits into demons. Solas explains how easily a spirit can change its' purpose in his personal quest.

That is a good point. They had them before, and knew how to deal with it. Everyone else doesn't have the training.

[Ellawynn]

I tried all dialogue options as a romanced Elf, and he does state your people need to die. My approval was so high it stop giving me approval. I'm not the only one that heard him say it.

Yes, and just minutes before that he said his plan was to drop the Veil and restore the Elven people. Not wipe out mortal kind for daring to exist. "Your people will probably die as an unavoidable consequence" is different from "intentionally and specifically murdering them because I want to and for no other reason." So no, he's not hoping for extinction, anymore than I hope to become poor because it's a possible consequence of me spending money. It's a cost, not a goal.

 

I mean, he even has a line where he says "This will likely destroy your world." Likely. As in "Sucks if it does, but it's not what I'm specifically aiming for."

 

It doesn't make much difference to those getting sacrificed, I'll grant you that. But it's a difference nonetheless.

[Incantrix]

Ancient Elves and spirits seem to be his concern. 

 

but see, the thing is that there's almost no ancient elves existing. What? Elves like Abelas who are temple guards? The ancient elven lords who will probably not accept him with open arms once they're freed. 

 

Exactly who is a saving the world for? xD

[Cobra's_back]

but see, the thing is that there's almost no ancient elves existing. What? Elves like Abelas who are temple guards? The ancient elven lords who will probably not accept him with open arms once they're freed. 

 

Exactly who is a saving the world for? xD

The Masked Empire had an ancient elf named "Slow Arrow". There could be more, and we just didn't meet them.

[Roninbarista]

Solas is committing the same act twice and still thinking he can predict and control the outcome. In that respect, he has a fatal blindside And his mistakes to be seen until he it's too late again. Such hubris must really the size of Thedas. Creating the veil started a huge catastrophe Solas couldn't foresee despite his plans. I'm guessing ripping the veil down will also go awry.

As to what Corypheus does in the alternate future, I don't know if he fully destroyed the veil. After all there were fade rifts for the Inqusitor to seal, and a couple Alexius ripped open. Solas may have simply been too messed up by red lyrium to make accurate distinctions. Granted, there would be story limitations, and I'll go as far to say Corypheus ripped and shredded the veil, but doesn't do away with it. I'm guessing he'd have taken the Black City by then if he could.

[Dai Grepher]

This is true in our world where dreams are just products of your mind. In Thedas, dreams take place in the Fade, which is shaped by spirits and the memories of mortals. The dream you're in doesn't just disappear because you woke up. Think of the Fade section in Origins. Those were dreams crafted by Sloth and maintained by his minions, and they didn't vanish because you woke your companion up. As for spirits - Solas himself says that after his friend was killed, he returned to the place where she dwelt in the Fade. Meaning it didn't disappear either. So, no, I doubt Crossroads were maintained by the Evanuris and only fell apart because they were gone.

 

Agreed about Solas being often contradictory, though. I wouldn't say he's deluded or misremembering because, frankly, there's no evidence for that. I think it's more because he's always leaving things out or talking in doublespeak - Trespasser was a rare moment where he told us some stuff straight, but he still kept a lot under wraps. It's unspeakably frustrating.

 

Yeah but the Fade world keeps changing. It doesn't stay the same for long unless there is some ruling spirit/demon keeping it that way. So mages who go there might exist in a certain "world" but when they wake up that world will disappear. Non-mages might just float around various "worlds" of spirits, or they might have their own world that morphs around them based on their own spirit's memories and thoughts.

 

As for the Fade sections in Origins, those were domains of a ruling demon. The Sloth Demon controlled it all. It remained until Sloth was destroyed. Then everyone left and woke up. It would be safe to conclude that this "world" no longer exists. The people you help talk about the dreamers there and how you must defeat Sloth to free them. Same case with Connor's demon. She even tells you that you stand in her domain. Also, the minions did not maintain those worlds. Sloth did. You didn't wake your companions up. You just helped them get out of those nightmare "worlds", and those would not disappear immediately because the Sloth demon was controlling those worlds too, just like "Weisshaupt".

 

I didn't write that the Crossroads dimension was maintained by the evanuris. I wrote that the "worlds" or places within the Crossroads may have been maintained by them.

 

There is no hard evidence for it. At least, not that I know of, though I haven't really searched for any. But the legends at the temples say one thing and Solas says that's just one version. He thinks of himself in another way. My main reason to distrust what he's saying is because there is no evidence of what he's saying. All we know are what some shattered spirit in the shattered library said, and now what Solas claims happened. That isn't enough to go on, in my opinion. So I don't think there's hard evidence for Solas' claim either.

[Samahl na Revas]

Solas is committing the same act twice and still thinking he can predict and control the outcome. In that respect, he has a fatal blindside And his mistakes to be seen until he it's too late again. Such hubris must really the size of Thedas. 

 

"I am Grim and Fatalistic"- Solas.

[solomon.kosin]

Well, if you recall the very first dialogues with Solas at Haven, you can ask him about spirits. He says smth like: "Imagine the world where spirits are as natural as mountains or rivers. That is the world without the Fade". Dont remember word to word. But it does not seem disasterous and I always have picked a "that sounds beautiful" response.

In Hushed Whispers he is nethertheless shocked and frightened with this state of world without the fade.

So I conclude that Cory has broke the Veil violently causing spirits to go mad, remember that he also had red lyrium and demon army.

But Solas, as a Veil creator, knows how to tear down the Veil peacefully at least for spirits. So the world will change but it wont be all chaos and destruction.
And thats why I dont believe Solas is evil

[Gervaise]

It will be chaos and destruction for all material creatures; he says as much.    You and everyone you know and love is going to die.    All the other creatures that inhabit the world are going to die.    He is going to restore the world as it was for him, probably as it was before the war that led to the evanuris being regarded as gods.   At least that is what he hopes will happen.

 

Solas is advocating a moral relativism; his actions are not good or evil in his eyes because all that matters is the restoration of what he destroyed.    He previously claimed that all thinking creatures have a right to exist but either he is a steaming hypocrite or there is more to his plan than he lets on (which he as good as admits).  I suspect that he believes our spirits will be freed from our mortal bodies and therefore we will still continue to exist in his new world, although unable to remember what we once were (like his friend that was killed).   

 

My personal belief is that he is evil if he acknowledges that his actions will kill us all and yet is still willing to go through with it.    The fact that he is apologetic about the fact has nothing to do with it.    Nor is the conscience salve that he is giving us a few years of relative peace before he pulls the plug.     He is actually more monstrous in viewing it in this twisted way.    When he came up with the original plan, he didn't think of any of the current world races as "people".    Now he has revised his opinion, admits we deserve better and yet still intends to go ahead with his plan.

[azarhal]

Solas is committing the same act twice and still thinking he can predict and control the outcome. In that respect, he has a fatal blindside And his mistakes to be seen until he it's too late again. Such hubris must really the size of Thedas. Creating the veil started a huge catastrophe Solas couldn't foresee despite his plans. I'm guessing ripping the veil down will also go awry.

As to what Corypheus does in the alternate future, I don't know if he fully destroyed the veil. After all there were fade rifts for the Inqusitor to seal, and a couple Alexius ripped open. Solas may have simply been too messed up by red lyrium to make accurate distinctions. Granted, there would be story limitations, and I'll go as far to say Corypheus ripped and shredded the veil, but doesn't do away with it. I'm guessing he'd have taken the Black City by then if he could.

 

The most powerful demons yet encountered are the pride demons, perhaps because they, among all their kind, most resemble men; as clever and manipulative as the desire demon, with a penchant for cruel irony that is almost human. While the demons of desire largely engage in the bribery of mortals, pride will use mortals' own best nature against them. Clever men outwit themselves. Strong men crush themselves. Humble men forget themselves. Jealous men fear themselves. They turn corruption and ruin into an art.

—From Beyond the Veil: Spirits and Demons by Enchanter Mirdromel

 

Seen from the side a Pride Demon has 3 eyes placed exactly like in his self-made portrait.

 

 

As for the future in that quest, the Veil being torn is just the Breach expanding to cover everything. It's just a huge hole into Blinky's realms basically. You know, the Nightmare Demon.

[In Exile]

"This world is an abomination, it must never come pass."    It is statements like this from Solas that have me scratching my head  about his plans.   Presumably the only reason it is an abomination is because it is not how he envisioned it would be with the Veil removed and therefore he is convinced that it is Cory's method of achieving the same end as his own that is the cause of the problem, not the idea itself.    Plus with Solas will not be gradual deterioration but an immediate clean sweep where everyone dies at once rather than being picked off by demons piecemeal.     So he thinks can control the outcome.      It is a pity we can't call him out this but of course you have only seen the nightmare future if you did Hushed Whispers. 

 

Mind you, having introduced the possibility of time travel into this world, it may be this will be a way of "redeeming" Solas by showing him he is wrong.    Dorian still has the theoretical knowledge to do this, even if you chose Champions of the Just.     So if he could find a way of doing it and you take Solas into the future to see just how "perfect" his new world would be.    He realises his mistake and because he accompanies you, rather than just being there, he remembers his experience on his return.  Then again, knowing Solas, he would just convince  himself that his future self must have done it wrong in some way rather than the plan itself was at fault.  

 

The world is an abomination because it doesn't remove the Veil. Corypheus blew a hole in the Veil and let the Fade "leak" in, while corrupting the world with red lyrium (you can see that even Solas himself is infected). The spirits pulled through the Veil - demons mostly - are all driven insane. It doesn't reverse what Solas did when he created it.