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[Star Reborn]

Spirits are ancient elves who ended up on the "other side" when the veil was created.

[Phoenix_Also_Rises]

The most powerful demons yet encountered are the pride demons, perhaps because they, among all their kind, most resemble men; as clever and manipulative as the desire demon, with a penchant for cruel irony that is almost human. While the demons of desire largely engage in the bribery of mortals, pride will use mortals' own best nature against them. Clever men outwit themselves. Strong men crush themselves. Humble men forget themselves. Jealous men fear themselves. They turn corruption and ruin into an art.
—From Beyond the Veil: Spirits and Demons by Enchanter Mirdromel

Seen from the side a Pride Demon has 3 eyes placed exactly like in his self-made portrait.


As for the future in that quest, the Veil being torn is just the Breach expanding to cover everything. It's just a huge hole into Blinky's realms basically. You know, the Nightmare Demon.

I remember reading that codex way back. Wasn't all the way in DAO? No matter. Point is that is interesting. Here's the thing - what if the ancient elves, who, as we're told during Trespasser, had very strong ties to spirits in general, were immortal because they themselves were actually part spirit? I mean, even their architecture relied in part on the Fade, it's not that big a stretch to say that this bond applied to more than just inanimate objects. And what if the Evanuris became so powerful as they did because in comparison with the rest of their people, they had more "spirit" in them. So when Solas created the veil, the "regular" elves, losing their spirit part of self, the part that made them immortal, "only" became short lived, but to the Evanuris, who were spirit to a much more substantial extent, this was so catastrophic that it virtually took them out the equation? Think about the Shattered Library and apply that to a thinking mind.

So what if the Dread Wolf is more than just a just a powerful elven mage? What if he too is also part spirit? And seeing as "spirit" and "demon" are only really formal distinctions, what if the spirit part of him is actually something that could, from a certain point of view, be considered a Pride Demon? That self portrait clearly shows an elf AND a wolf; what if that's not meant to show the metaphorical inner duality of the character, what if this duality was very literal? The core, omnipresent theme across all Dragon Age games is "bonds", after all, and severing thereof.

This, of course is nothing but wild speculation. It doesn't, for example, explain why, if the Evanuris would be utterly incapacitated by the Veil being created, did Solas not suffer the same effect? I honestly have no idea but I also think that an excuse could be found in an exception/artefact/whatever the writers come up with.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Problem is he believes ALL of you will die. He states as your world burns.............

 

You can ask why everyone has to die. He states it would be easy to tell you but he can't. Crazy!

B/c we're too clever and we'd be able to use the knowledge to stop him. Personally, I like that Solas is avoiding the trope there. lol

[Dai Grepher]

Yeah, notice how you're grasping at straws to defame the one person who probably knows anything about this subject, all to justify a theory that requires several large assumptions on the nature of the Fade, assumptions which are pretty often contradicted? Like, at this point, I'm not sure what else to say. Surely you see how tautological this is? "Solas is delusional." / "Oh, why do you say that?" / "Because he keeps contradicting this theory I have." / "Well, how do you know he's not right?" / "Because he's delusional."

 

*Sigh* Why would he lying about this when there are far better lies he could've told? ("My plan is harmless and will kill no one," for starters) Why would he be mistaken or misremembering, when we've seen nothing to suggest he is? All the points he was wrong on before didn't relate to something he knew so intimately, and furthermore, they're assumptions that everyone else made as well (Seriously, if someone vaporizes a person in front of you, what would your first assumption be? "Clearly they've jumped a year into the future!" or "Gosh, must be dead.") If he's been addled by the Veil, or by sleep - prove it, then.

 

Onto "The Fade is constructed from will." Yeah, that's correct. But notice how the Valor spirit doesn't proceed to tell you that everything he's made will disappear if he's killed. Notice how no one else ever tells you this either. It's an assumption you've made, justified by other assumptions you've made, contradicted by a character who is, frankly, far more knowledgeable on the subject than you.

 

On the subject of June's place - that's the thing. She didn't will it into being. A bunch of slaves and some random architects did. So we have no reason to assume the Crossroads or the Vir Dirthara or any of it was based, specifically, on the Evanuris' will. And another thought occurs to me - the stones in the Crossroads and the Library. The ones you can activate into returning to their place. "They remember where they were supposed to be," Cole says. But who's remembering? Not the Inquisitor, not anyone with them. The stones themselves are. They're self-maintaining, and can reconstruct themselves. They're not dependent on their creator's will to continue. In fact, that they can remember and stray from their creator's will at all shows that they've some semblance of life of their own.

 

On Wisdom - Solas says the he returned to the place where she used to be. So no, no specifics. But given that there was a place to return to...

 

I mean, I highly doubt a millenia-old Wisdom spirits just hung out in the raw Fade all her life.

 

I'm not grasping at straws. I pointed to specific examples of where Solas thought he knew something to be true just to be proven wrong. So how does he know he's right about the Veil?

 

My claims about the Fade are based on observed facts from the previous games. I gave specific examples. Valor, Connor's Desire Demon, the realms of Sloth, etc. What contradicts any of these examples?

 

No, my argument is that Solas might be correct or he might not be. It is possible that he does not remember what happened, or he is honestly mistaken about what happened because of his limited perspective of those events. There is also the possibility that he is lying, and he has been known to lie. So I'm not sure what problem you have with these suggestions.

 

I'm not saying he's lying about what will happen to the world. I think he's making an educated guess based on what he thinks will happen if the Veil is destroyed. The lie, I believe, might be his story about the Veil. Saying he created it in the first place could be his attempt at a rationalizing why he is right to destroy it. Like, "I made it, therefore it is my right to unmake it." Same as saying, "Your world only exists because of my action, therefore it is of no consequence if I revoke my action." But this is just one possibility. It's also possible that he remembers it wrong, or is mistaken about what he did.
 

But how do you know he's intimately knowledgeable of this situation? How do you know he isn't mistaken like always? You're just accepting his word as proof, when he has been proven to be mistaken and untruthful in the past.

 

Solas admits to Flemeth of being weakened after his slumber. Indeed Solas can be defeated in battle quite easily during this period of time.

 

Assumption is exactly Solas' mistake in that case. His words to you are, "You're alive?! We saw you die!" Well, no no no. You saw the Herald and Dorian disappear. You didn't see them die.

 

Valor does not go into detail about his own death. Why would he? And Solas does not contradict the claim that things made by those in the Fade disappear with their death. In fact, I think Cole's ability is strong evidence that things in the Fade can be made to disappear using thought or by forgetting. Envy's world runs out the further you run into it, for example.

 

I'm not comparing my knowledge to Solas'. I am simply citing examples from the games.

 

Okay, not everything was based on the willpower of the evanuris, or maybe those slaves were an extension of the evanuris since they carried their vallaslin. But in the case of the structures not being based on the evanuris' will, then maybe it was based on the wills of those who made them. So the same argument applies.

 

The stones "remembering where they are supposed to be" is the result of the Inquisitor activating those egg looking things. The exact mechanics of this are unknown.

 

Solas says she might one day return to that place in the Fade, but the specific nature of this "place" is not explained.

[Ellawynn]

I'm not grasping at straws. I pointed to specific examples of where Solas thought he knew something to be true just to be proven wrong. So how does he know he's right about the Veil?

Because he made it. Because he was there.

 

You're attempts to discredit him don't make any sense, and when they do, they have no evidence to support them actually being the case. Disregarding the concept of Occam's Razor the issue with making such claims is that entire stories change if we go around saying that the information characters give us is nonfactual or dishonest even when evidence is posted to the contrary. Think of where I could go with that. "Cullen's delusional - he doesn't have a family! The lyrium withdrawal had him make it all up!" or "Leliana's lying about her childhood! She's an earthling who fell into Thedas and decided to roll with it!" It's an absurd statement that's supported only by a lack of evidence directly falsifying it - which is, y'know, a pretty big no-no in the debate world. 

 

Until clear and direct evidence comes to light that a character is lying/misremembering/mistaken about a subject, I take the information it gives me. The devs have no better way of communicating that the Vir Dirthara and such were destroyed by the Veil. They probably figured that the only two people who were around at the time - one of whom created the Veil and has intimate knowledge of the Fade - would know what they're talking about. And I have yet to see any reason why they wouldn't.

 

(Oh, and now Solas is lying about creating the Veil? Again, if he were going to lie to justify his plans, wouldn't have he just lied about the whole global destruction thing?)

 

 

My claims about the Fade are based on observed facts from the previous games. I gave specific examples. Valor, Connor's Desire Demon, the realms of Sloth, etc. What contradicts any of these examples?

Solas. Memories. Rocks in the Crossroads. Landmarks in the Fade. And the issue with your examples is that they don't support your theory. The support the theory that they can shape parts of the Fade - which didn't need supporting, because there are countless examples of it - but none of them say "This will all disappear with my death." That's your assumption.

 

 

Valor does not go into detail about his own death. Why would he? And Solas does not contradict the claim that things made by those in the Fade disappear with their death. In fact, I think Cole's ability is strong evidence that things in the Fade can be made to disappear using thought or by forgetting. Envy's world runs out the further you run into it, for example.

 

 

And lastly - Valor could've gone into the details about his death since, you know, he was challenging you to a fight and the only reason you have to comply is to get his weaponry. Solas directly contradicts the idea that things in the Fade disappeared solely because the Evanuris weren't around to maintain them - that's why you're having to prove that he would be nonfactual about such a thing. Cole's ability messes with memories in the head, not ones in the Fade. We already know the Fade can shaped and unshaped by thought so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up or how it supports your theory. Envy's realm ran out because he was too distracted to keep making more, not because he was made to forget or... yeah, I still don't how you're connecting that back to your theory. The fact that the pocket realms weren't created by the Evanuris is important because it means that the Evanuris don't need to be released to restore them, and because it means that the immediate destruction of the Library makes no sense - Solas locked away the Evanuris, not the Vir Dirthara's creators, whoever they may be.

 

Honestly though, I'm really getting done with this debate. So if you want to keep your theory, fine, just recognize that's it baseless speculation.

[berelinde]

Sadly, Solas doesn't have the benefit of understanding what happened in Future!Redcliffe. He thinks that if he tears down the Veil, everything will go back to the way it was before, but that's impossible. The Veil has changed the mortal world, but it has also changed the Fade.

 

The irony - and tragedy - is that Solas knows his perception is flawed. He knows that the Fade is shaped by the experiences and expectations of the dreamers who enter it. Yet even as he tells the Inquisitor this, he thinks he's somehow immune, that he is somehow seeing the Fade as it really is instead of as he wants it to be. When you encounter him in future!Redcliffe, he understands how mistaken he was, but once Dorian reverses the spell, that insight is gone. It's a pity he didn't have the foresight to write himself a note.

 

"Dear Solas,

 

I am your future, and I have seen the world you would create. Desist at once, before it is too late.

 

With love,

D. W."

[Dai Grepher]

Because he made it. Because he was there.

 

You're attempts to discredit him don't make any sense, and when they do, they have no evidence to support them actually being the case. Disregarding the concept of Occam's Razor the issue with making such claims is that entire stories change if we go around saying that the information characters give us is nonfactual or dishonest even when evidence is posted to the contrary. Think of where I could go with that. "Cullen's delusional - he doesn't have a family! The lyrium withdrawal had him make it all up!" or "Leliana's lying about her childhood! She's an earthling who fell into Thedas and decided to roll with it!" It's an absurd statement that's supported only by a lack of evidence directly falsifying it - which is, y'know, a pretty big no-no in the debate world. 

 

Until clear and direct evidence comes to light that a character is lying/misremembering/mistaken about a subject, I take the information it gives me. The devs have no better way of communicating that the Vir Dirthara and such were destroyed by the Veil. They probably figured that the only two people who were around at the time - one of whom created the Veil and has intimate knowledge of the Fade - would know what they're talking about. And I have yet to see any reason why they wouldn't.

 

(Oh, and now Solas is lying about creating the Veil? Again, if he were going to lie to justify his plans, wouldn't have he just lied about the whole global destruction thing?)

 

 

 

Solas. Memories. Rocks in the Crossroads. Landmarks in the Fade. And the issue with your examples is that they don't support your theory. The support the theory that they can shape parts of the Fade - which didn't need supporting, because there are countless examples of it - but none of them say "This will all disappear with my death." That's your assumption.

 

 

 

And lastly - Valor could've gone into the details about his death since, you know, he was challenging you to a fight and the only reason you have to comply is to get his weaponry. Solas directly contradicts the idea that things in the Fade disappeared solely because the Evanuris weren't around to maintain them - that's why you're having to prove that he would be nonfactual about such a thing. Cole's ability messes with memories in the head, not ones in the Fade. We already know the Fade can shaped and unshaped by thought so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up or how it supports your theory. Envy's realm ran out because he was too distracted to keep making more, not because he was made to forget or... yeah, I still don't how you're connecting that back to your theory. The fact that the pocket realms weren't created by the Evanuris is important because it means that the Evanuris don't need to be released to restore them, and because it means that the immediate destruction of the Library makes no sense - Solas locked away the Evanuris, not the Vir Dirthara's creators, whoever they may be.

 

Honestly though, I'm really getting done with this debate. So if you want to keep your theory, fine, just recognize that's it baseless speculation.

 

But what do you have suggesting Solas made the Veil or was there when it happened other than his own claim? By the same token, we should have trusted what Corypheus said about his experiences.

 

I'm not discrediting Solas. I'm pointing out that his claim is not proof. I don't think we should just blindly accept what he says. If what he claimed is true, there should be corroborating evidence for it. If you want to accept what he says as fact, that's your choice. But I demand proof. Your examples with Cullen and Leliana are not the same because we have no claims that conflict with theirs.

 

Occam's Razor says the simplest answer is usually the correct one, and demands that theories be formed based on known quantities. The theory that Solas created the Veil to run through all of existence is absurd on its face. Beyond that, Solas' credibility at this point is laughable. The nature of the Fade, the Crossroads, and the real world, and their relation is yet to be explored in enough detail to identify known quantities.

 

What the devs present is fine, but it isn't enough to go on. They presented the possibility that Solas created the Veil and destroyed the ancient elvhen empire in doing so. They presented a premise. That doesn't mean this story is automatically correct. Personally, I think there are a few things Solas is not considering, such as the two or possibly three remaining old gods. According to Morrigan, they existed before the Veil. If that is true, then they might provide a different account of what happened when the Veil was created and by whom. There is also Geldauran and the other Forgotten Ones. But Geldauran in particular has some kind of plan in mind. Xebenkeck is also referenced, and yet that member of the Forbidden Ones shows up in Kirkwall. There are many questions surrounding this storyline.

 

Not if he's lying to himself most of all. The idea that restoring the worlds of Elvhenan will cost the real world everything is a likelihood in Solas' eyes, and it's one he's willing to accept. He isn't going to deny what he thinks is a fact. Rather he will justify his action against that fact. "Yes, I admit that the world of Thedas will be destroyed, BUT... my reasoning is justified because I created the Veil in the first place." That sort of thing. Another possibility is that he wants the Inquisitor to stop him because he isn't truly sure of his plan. Otherwise, why tell the Inquisitor any of this?

 

Solas is proven to be mistaken and to lie about certain things. Memories (especially in the Fade) are unreliable, as Solas admits. The nature of what controls those rocks is unknown. Anything we say about them would just be speculation. Landmarks in the Fade are confirmed to change. A codex from Origins states that the magisters of the Imperium once tried to map the Fade to no avail because it kept changing.

 

That would require Valor to actually plan on dying against you. And the reason why I'm arguing this is because you are too. You are accepting what he says without evidence. I am pointing out that he has no evidence to back up his claim. The point about Cole is that thoughts can have connection to the physical. For instance, he had to confront the memory of the ex-templar and make him forget in order for him to use the amulet. The point about Envy is that the "worlds" in the Fade will run out or degrade unless there is someone there to maintain it. Envy could not think it into existence fast enough, which is why it broke down. This is an example of a spirit not being able to maintain a Fade world because it could not think. So logically, if all thought is cut off from that Fade world, the whole thing will unravel.

 

Solas didn't lock the Library's creators away, but many of them were cut off from that "world". And I didn't claim the evanuris made the Crossroads dimension, just a certain number of the worlds that exist there.

 

My theory has a basis, so it is not speculation. It is mainly skepticism of Solas' claim. Your theory is baseless speculation, because you merely believe what Solas told you to believe, and his claim alone is not a reliable basis.

[Leliana]

Tbh I think one should address how Solas can really be in over his head when it comes to his goals. Sure he's an ancient and very powerful elven mage, but there are lots of ancient powerful things in Thedas, and many heck if not all of said things will stand against him. If you really give it thought, once the entirety of Thedas begins learning of Solas and his intentions, he'll basically have the entire world knocking on his doorstep. Solas's inherent issue is that he thinks he can do things perfectly and that all his plans will come into fruition as he foresees them (despite the fact that they in fact fail, repeatedly, a lot.) Even if he is successful in tearing down the veil, the ensuing chaos is unavoidable as others have mentioned it isn't perfect and ideal where 'spirits are innocent and demons only exist because of mortals'. That is true in that this is why demons happened in the first place. No, there are malicious and powerful evil things in the fade now and they won't just disappear/ (Nightmare? The Forbidden Ones?) Oh and I forgot to mention, not only will the Evanuris return but so will the Forgotten Ones, whatever the hell created the Blight in the first place? Well that's probably gonna be a part of it too.

 

For the Tolkien savvy, I think we're gonna have the Dagor Dagorath of Dragon Age in one of the two upcoming games...

 

Oh Solas, dirthara-ma...

Spoiler

[Ellawynn]

Cut

 

Oh, so he just deluded himself into thinking he made the Veil? Jeez, this gets more absurd with every response.

 

I believe Solas' claim despite vague evidence because you have no evidence at all. Even a claim from a fallible character means more than "Well, nothing says it's wrong, so..." You're grasping at straws and using quotes like "This is my domain" to jump to insane conclusions such as "clearly the desire demon meant that this entire part of the Fade would collapse without her will to hold it up." Don't turn your nose up at me over baseless speculation when you're more than willing to indulge yourself.

 

I'm done. 

[Bhryaen]

Yeah but the Fade world keeps changing. It doesn't stay the same for long unless there is some ruling spirit/demon keeping it that way. So mages who go there might exist in a certain "world" but when they wake up that world will disappear. Non-mages might just float around various "worlds" of spirits, or they might have their own world that morphs around them based on their own spirit's memories and thoughts.

 

As for the Fade sections in Origins, those were domains of a ruling demon. The Sloth Demon controlled it all. It remained until Sloth was destroyed. Then everyone left and woke up. It would be safe to conclude that this "world" no longer exists. The people you help talk about the dreamers there and how you must defeat Sloth to free them. Same case with Connor's demon. She even tells you that you stand in her domain. Also, the minions did not maintain those worlds. Sloth did. You didn't wake your companions up. You just helped them get out of those nightmare "worlds", and those would not disappear immediately because the Sloth demon was controlling those worlds too, just like "Weisshaupt".

 

I didn't write that the Crossroads dimension was maintained by the evanuris. I wrote that the "worlds" or places within the Crossroads may have been maintained by them.

 

There is no hard evidence for it. At least, not that I know of, though I haven't really searched for any. But the legends at the temples say one thing and Solas says that's just one version. He thinks of himself in another way. My main reason to distrust what he's saying is because there is no evidence of what he's saying. All we know are what some shattered spirit in the shattered library said, and now what Solas claims happened. That isn't enough to go on, in my opinion. So I don't think there's hard evidence for Solas' claim either.

This is the best response to the OP that I've found on this thread (and some follow-up). The rest of the discussion regarding Solas' abilities/knowledge/etc. can be answered with a simple, "Don't believe anything-" not even the devs. The devs have to remain consistent with their own narrative (well, if they're going to be good at it anyway, which they tend to be), but they can throw in any twist they like to deepen the narrative further if it stays within those parameters.

 

What hasn't gotten much mention was Solas' warning from his red-lyrium-addled prison cell: that the Fade that had then erupted was controlled by a malevolent uber-demon. That was the issue. Solas hadn't anticipated that the Nightmare-joined Cory would be able to actually wield the Orb. He was, so Nightmare with his huge Titan-like demon monstrosity were poised to jump over. The scenario Solas had in mind was restoring power to the Evanuris- which sculpt a different type of Fade environment. Solas' description in his Haven conversation of a Veil-less world being quite navigable if you know how to deal properly and effectively with spirits gives an indication of how the Veil-less world used to work without being a source of demon giants and demon armies. The same host of spirits were there- even malevolent ones- but they weren't the ones in control. His people used to know how to deal with them. It's no different than if you put a city person- lived all their lives in an urban setting- suddenly in a forest. They're clueless how to survive, what to do. Or put a forest-dwellling person in a metropolis and see how they can't navigate a simple city block. The ancient elves apparently knew exactly how to cultivate and ensure a much different Fade environment than people in the "real" world can even conceive of, so that even grotesque Titanesque nasties were in check (if they existed at all).

 

The other thing I got from Trespasser was that the ancient elves weren't just "skilled with spirits" or "part-spirit." They were spirits. They were the reigning spirits of the Fade. They weren't spirits like little wisp demons or crafty desire demons. I like that someone quoted above the passage that lays out Pride Demons as the most advanced of the demons, having even the desire demon's wiliness, but also a sense of irony. (Not that they ever demonstrate much beyond being large melee monsters, but still...) They were more complex, just as Cole is more complex as a spirit than, say, Justice. There are a lot more facets to Cole's identity than some single-purposeness. Justice was still trying to "do justice" from the moment we meet him in DAO:A to the moment he "does justice" through Anders to the Chantry in DA2's Kirkwall. He wasn't developing and had no complexity past that tendency. Cole, on the other hand, starting as a "spirit of stopping the hurt," ended up being an assassin who could bring hurt to stop hurt, struggling with that seeming disparity as we hear him throughout the main game. Cole even builds rationalizations for killing, something one doesn't have to do when they're single-minded. He grows, learns, develops his sensibility- as a spirit. This is the sort of "Wisdom spirit" tendency that Solas was familiar with and why he insists spirits are alive.

 

This is how the confrontation with Solas is really just an expansion of the same theme explored in Cole's personal history: make him more "Fade" or more "real world." In the former Solas intends to remove the Veil and restore the "spirit-nature" of the world to every corner, while in the latter Solas might relent and learn to love the "real world" as it is, just accepting the loss of Evanuris, content to just do his usual Dream Walking instead.

 

This brings me to the Evanuris. Just imagine spirits that have developed for eons, affected by wisdom in the "real world" to the point that they were far more complex as spirits even than Cole- as complex, say, as people tend to be (more or less). No longer would it be so simple to name them a "spirit of X," even though they would- to some degree- still be delineable as such. Hence Solas hinting that Cassandra is more than just her faith even though it was a big part of her life. This is also why he distinguishes himself and his people from the "real world" mortal elves in Thedas. They're like Coles that took Varric's "more 'real world'" route- (Solas Greatly Disapproves). Since Solas is in the "real world," he's in a similar bind as his spirit brother, Cole, but his solution is a bit more extreme than just "becoming more spirit" in the "real world." (Cole does, however, if made "more spirit," ultimately return to the Fade, of course...)

 

The concern about Solas not being able to successfully orchestrate a return of Evanuris and Elvhenan by merely casting aside the Veil is still legitimate, however. I mostly don't see what he thought he'd accomplish by going the "Let Cory do it" approach. He was still weak, he hadn't absorbed Mythal, he had nothing other than grief about his lost people to motivate him. What was he supposed to do at that point with the Fade now open to him? Maybe it was just like Cory at the end of the main story: he just did it out of futility, regardless of the consequences to himself- only in Solas' case it would mean restoring magic to the Evanuris and thus letting them live again, even in all their destructive tendencies. So Solas was essentially just saying, "In a world where I have only two choices- either let my people keep reigning as cruel misleaders or send them to ruin to give their subjects a chance at freedom- once I decided the latter, but now I've decided to accept the former." At the end of Trespasser we can confront him directly on that, but he now- Mythal powers in hand- says he knows a way to keep the former elf lords from regaining their former positions as rulers. So he says. And presumably ensuring that outcome and finding a new way to break the Veil are what he's off doing when he finally departs. Which is promising, but I'd rather not wipe out "real world" existence (and people) just to restore his paradise of wishful thinking.

[Dai Grepher]

Oh, so he just deluded himself into thinking he made the Veil? Jeez, this gets more absurd with every response.

 

I believe Solas' claim despite vague evidence because you have no evidence at all. Even a claim from a fallible character means more than "Well, nothing says it's wrong, so..." You're grasping at straws and using quotes like "This is my domain" to jump to insane conclusions such as "clearly the desire demon meant that this entire part of the Fade would collapse without her will to hold it up." Don't turn your nose up at me over baseless speculation when you're more than willing to indulge yourself.

 

I'm done. 

 

Perhaps he is, yes. Just like he deludes himself into thinking that he can restore Elvhenan to its original glory.

 

What vague evidence do you have? I see no evidence at all for Solas' claim.

 

If claims are what you care about then how about the Chant of Light? It claims that the Maker created the Veil to separate the Fade from the real world. You blindly accept this claim too, right?

 

I made no such conclusions. I posted alternative possibilities for you to consider. I don't care if you ponder them or ignore them. That's up to you.

 

I never wrote that my suggestions were not speculation. The problem is that you're just going along with Solas' claim without evidence, when Solas is a proven liar who has been mistaken in the past countless times.
 

[Dai Grepher]

This is the best response to the OP that I've found on this thread (and some follow-up). The rest of the discussion regarding Solas' abilities/knowledge/etc. can be answered with a simple, "Don't believe anything-" not even the devs. The devs have to remain consistent with their own narrative (well, if they're going to be good at it anyway, which they tend to be), but they can throw in any twist they like to deepen the narrative further if it stays within those parameters.

 

What hasn't gotten much mention was Solas' warning from his red-lyrium-addled prison cell: that the Fade that had then erupted was controlled by a malevolent uber-demon. That was the issue. Solas hadn't anticipated that the Nightmare-joined Cory would be able to actually wield the Orb. He was, so Nightmare with his huge Titan-like demon monstrosity were poised to jump over. The scenario Solas had in mind was restoring power to the Evanuris- which sculpt a different type of Fade environment. Solas' description in his Haven conversation of a Veil-less world being quite navigable if you know how to deal properly and effectively with spirits gives an indication of how the Veil-less world used to work without being a source of demon giants and demon armies. The same host of spirits were there- even malevolent ones- but they weren't the ones in control. His people used to know how to deal with them. It's no different than if you put a city person- lived all their lives in an urban setting- suddenly in a forest. They're clueless how to survive, what to do. Or put a forest-dwellling person in a metropolis and see how they can't navigate a simple city block. The ancient elves apparently knew exactly how to cultivate and ensure a much different Fade environment than people in the "real" world can even conceive of, so that even grotesque Titanesque nasties were in check (if they existed at all).

 

The other thing I got from Trespasser was that the ancient elves weren't just "skilled with spirits" or "part-spirit." They were spirits. They were the reigning spirits of the Fade. They weren't spirits like little wisp demons or crafty desire demons. I like that someone quoted above the passage that lays out Pride Demons as the most advanced of the demons, having even the desire demon's wiliness, but also a sense of irony. (Not that they ever demonstrate much beyond being large melee monsters, but still...) They were more complex, just as Cole is more complex as a spirit than, say, Justice. There are a lot more facets to Cole's identity than some single-purposeness. Justice was still trying to "do justice" from the moment we meet him in DAO:A to the moment he "does justice" through Anders to the Chantry in DA2's Kirkwall. He wasn't developing and had no complexity past that tendency. Cole, on the other hand, starting as a "spirit of stopping the hurt," ended up being an assassin who could bring hurt to stop hurt, struggling with that seeming disparity as we hear him throughout the main game. Cole even builds rationalizations for killing, something one doesn't have to do when they're single-minded. He grows, learns, develops his sensibility- as a spirit. This is the sort of "Wisdom spirit" tendency that Solas was familiar with and why he insists spirits are alive.

 

This is how the confrontation with Solas is really just an expansion of the same theme explored in Cole's personal history: make him more "Fade" or more "real world." In the former Solas intends to remove the Veil and restore the "spirit-nature" of the world to every corner, while in the latter Solas might relent and learn to love the "real world" as it is, just accepting the loss of Evanuris, content to just do his usual Dream Walking instead.

 

This brings me to the Evanuris. Just imagine spirits that have developed for eons, affected by wisdom in the "real world" to the point that they were far more complex as spirits even than Cole- as complex, say, as people tend to be (more or less). No longer would it be so simple to name them a "spirit of X," even though they would- to some degree- still be delineable as such. Hence Solas hinting that Cassandra is more than just her faith even though it was a big part of her life. This is also why he distinguishes himself and his people from the "real world" mortal elves in Thedas. They're like Coles that took Varric's "more 'real world'" route- (Solas Greatly Disapproves). Since Solas is in the "real world," he's in a similar bind as his spirit brother, Cole, but his solution is a bit more extreme than just "becoming more spirit" in the "real world." (Cole does, however, if made "more spirit," ultimately return to the Fade, of course...)

 

The concern about Solas not being able to successfully orchestrate a return of Evanuris and Elvhenan by merely casting aside the Veil is still legitimate, however. I mostly don't see what he thought he'd accomplish by going the "Let Cory do it" approach. He was still weak, he hadn't absorbed Mythal, he had nothing other than grief about his lost people to motivate him. What was he supposed to do at that point with the Fade now open to him? Maybe it was just like Cory at the end of the main story: he just did it out of futility, regardless of the consequences to himself- only in Solas' case it would mean restoring magic to the Evanuris and thus letting them live again, even in all their destructive tendencies. So Solas was essentially just saying, "In a world where I have only two choices- either let my people keep reigning as cruel misleaders or send them to ruin to give their subjects a chance at freedom- once I decided the latter, but now I've decided to accept the former." At the end of Trespasser we can confront him directly on that, but he now- Mythal powers in hand- says he knows a way to keep the former elf lords from regaining their former positions as rulers. So he says. And presumably ensuring that outcome and finding a new way to break the Veil are what he's off doing when he finally departs. Which is promising, but I'd rather not wipe out "real world" existence (and people) just to restore his paradise of wishful thinking.

 

Thanks. I appreciate the compliment. And I agree that the claims of characters and even the devs can't be taken to heart. Even if these claims are true right now, that doesn't mean a new writer won't be hired in a few years and take things in a completely different direction.

 

So if I understand your point correctly, you think Solas believes his version of the future will turn out differently than Corypheus'? That's possible that he believes that. If Trespasser hadn't been so poorly done, they could have put in an option to talk to Solas about the bad future if you did In Hushed Whispers. Then we could know his thoughts on it.

 

I agree that they seem more like the ancient spirits of the Fade. I think they're in the same class as the Forbidden Ones or the old gods. I think spirits can grow stronger and more conscious over time. About Cole, I think you are right about him, and Solas' case might be the same, though it might be too soon to tell. But one thing I would caution against is believing the epilogue slides. Though I know Cole also says that he will go back to the Fade after Trespasser, I think this could easily change, especially since a more human Cole will remain in the real world. So if he appears again in the future, he will still probably be in the real world. It would be nice if the next game had it split to where Cole appears in a real world level if you humanized him, or in a Fade level if you spiritualized him.

 

His plan seemed stupid even if Cory hadn't been an ancient magister darkspawn with auto-revive. What made Solas think he would be able to follow the person around until they unlocked it? What made him think he would be able to get to it before anyone else? But as for his power, I think his plan was to reclaim the orb and take the power from it. Then he would be able to enter the Fade, tear down the Veil completely, and then take on the evanuris which he probably assumed were weakened as he was when he first awoke. I don't think he absorbed Mythal's power from Flemeth, and if he did I doubt there was enough there to do anything with. I think he should have just waited for his power to return. Or at least trained some Dalish to unlock the orb and get blown up instead. You'd think an ageless being would be more patient than that. And according to Solas, he had servants after just one year of being awake.

 

I think the merge might happen regardless. This might be what Thedas needs to restart a world of adventure. Sure, many people will die, but so will a lot of bad people. Those who survive will be able to create new worlds in this new dimension. And if they ever repair the Veil or get it back somehow, then maybe those new structures will transfer over into the new real world. Thus creating a whole new Thedas.

 

But more than likely, Solas' plan will backfire and the Veil will remain intact for the most part.

[Bhryaen]

Thanks. I appreciate the compliment. And I agree that the claims of characters and even the devs can't be taken to heart. Even if these claims are true right now, that doesn't mean a new writer won't be hired in a few years and take things in a completely different direction.

 

So if I understand your point correctly, you think Solas believes his version of the future will turn out differently than Corypheus'? That's possible that he believes that. If Trespasser hadn't been so poorly done, they could have put in an option to talk to Solas about the bad future if you did In Hushed Whispers. Then we could know his thoughts on it.

 

I agree that they seem more like the ancient spirits of the Fade. I think they're in the same class as the Forbidden Ones or the old gods. I think spirits can grow stronger and more conscious over time. About Cole, I think you are right about him, and Solas' case might be the same, though it might be too soon to tell. But one thing I would caution against is believing the epilogue slides. Though I know Cole also says that he will go back to the Fade after Trespasser, I think this could easily change, especially since a more human Cole will remain in the real world. So if he appears again in the future, he will still probably be in the real world. It would be nice if the next game had it split to where Cole appears in a real world level if you humanized him, or in a Fade level if you spiritualized him.

 

His plan seemed stupid even if Cory hadn't been an ancient magister darkspawn with auto-revive. What made Solas think he would be able to follow the person around until they unlocked it? What made him think he would be able to get to it before anyone else? But as for his power, I think his plan was to reclaim the orb and take the power from it. Then he would be able to enter the Fade, tear down the Veil completely, and then take on the evanuris which he probably assumed were weakened as he was when he first awoke. I don't think he absorbed Mythal's power from Flemeth, and if he did I doubt there was enough there to do anything with. I think he should have just waited for his power to return. Or at least trained some Dalish to unlock the orb and get blown up instead. You'd think an ageless being would be more patient than that. And according to Solas, he had servants after just one year of being awake.

 

I think the merge might happen regardless. This might be what Thedas needs to restart a world of adventure. Sure, many people will die, but so will a lot of bad people. Those who survive will be able to create new worlds in this new dimension. And if they ever repair the Veil or get it back somehow, then maybe those new structures will transfer over into the new real world. Thus creating a whole new Thedas.

 

But more than likely, Solas' plan will backfire and the Veil will remain intact for the most part.

Solas says flat out at the end of Trespasser that he has something in mind for what will happen when the Veil is brought down- intonating that he has some sort of plan... before he tells you he won't tell you anything, of course... You can ask him, "Yeah, but what about your nemeses? Won't they come back?" You have a good idea though regarding his chances against them if they're as weak as Solas was. If nothing else, Solas surely did not like how Cory's Veil-mashing worked out, and in Hushed Whispers he urges the Inky to prevent that outcome, but yet he does still want to do it, so he clearly has in mind something that Veil-removal can accomplish, presumably if done in the correct way.

 

I thought it was canon that Mythal jumped to Solas, no? I mean, it's not said, but obviously his new instant-petrification magic wasn't there until after his "exchange" with Flemeth. With those new sparkly-eyes after it, something transferred to him. If not Mythal, then what? It seems odd that they'd make the cinematic for that scene with Flemeth, but in the end it was irrelevant and he just had to wait around for a while to get back his own instant-petrification abilities. I suppose I shouldn't assume... but still... Certainly it seemed his powers weren't going to return by just standing around. By the end of the game, my Inky had made him 27th lvl haha (held back by the level cap)...

 

The epilogue slide also flat out shows Cole re-entering the Fade, not just mentioning he might. (He leaves his hat for some reason.) That in no way means he can't come back to the "real world" after, but it was mentioned that Cole felt that was where he could do the most good helping to heal the hurts. I like the idea of two different meetings with him though, based on how you'd played him- i.e., rather than the same meeting with him wherever, but with him simply behaving differently.

 

It's not entirely clear to me what Solas means when he says that the "real world" will be destroyed to restore the pre-Veil one. All of it, everything wiped out? I mean, Elvehnan was apparently located in the "real world" prior to the Veil- as obviously were quite a lot of elves- but then again Arlathan apparently vanished, so perhaps it was more Fade than "real" after all. But would the Veil's removal (his way) instantly erase the face of Thedas, just rework it somehow, or only let spirits run around freely mucking up life for everyone on the planet? Since the Cory version and Solas version both supposedly involve some pretty major devastation to the Thedas, however, I don't see the devs letting it happen, if only because I don't see them having spent that much time on building the lore of Thedas only to have it all reduced to nil. The only way it might happen would be if they were planning the end of the franchise that concludes in a ME3-style global/cosmic set of possibilities depending on how you play DA4:

 

1. Good ending- Solas/protagonist learns how to remove the Veil relatively safely and make the former "real world" existence integrate with Fade existence untraumatically... making everyone able to work with spirits the way Solas does and create a wondrous uncharted world of harmony between the Stone and the Fade.

2. Bad ending- all goes very wrong and we end up with Cory's future after all or an existence ruled by the evil Evanuris again, perhaps with the protagonist among them.

3. Mixed ending- the world is partially erased, but pockets of the prior world remain simply because they're part of the collective memory and dreams of those who'd been making the Fade what it was.

 

Again, it's just so permanently devastating to the Thedas we've been getting a better and better feel for with each game that it seems even more destructive of prior franchise experiences than the new Star Trek movie series was with its rewriting of all prior series due to one time warp event. They could do it, but it depends on how little regard they have for their own work...

[Phoenix_Also_Rises]

Tbh I think one should address how Solas can really be in over his head when it comes to his goals. Sure he's an ancient and very powerful elven mage, but there are lots of ancient powerful things in Thedas, and many heck if not all of said things will stand against him. If you really give it thought, once the entirety of Thedas begins learning of Solas and his intentions, he'll basically have the entire world knocking on his doorstep. Solas's inherent issue is that he thinks he can do things perfectly and that all his plans will come into fruition as he foresees them (despite the fact that they in fact fail, repeatedly, a lot.) Even if he is successful in tearing down the veil, the ensuing chaos is unavoidable as others have mentioned it isn't perfect and ideal where 'spirits are innocent and demons only exist because of mortals'. That is true in that this is why demons happened in the first place. No, there are malicious and powerful evil things in the fade now and they won't just disappear/ (Nightmare? The Forbidden Ones?) Oh and I forgot to mention, not only will the Evanuris return but so will the Forgotten Ones, whatever the hell created the Blight in the first place? Well that's probably gonna be a part of it too.

 

For the Tolkien savvy, I think we're gonna have the Dagor Dagorath of Dragon Age in one of the two upcoming games...

 

Oh Solas, dirthara-ma...

Spoiler

 

Absolutely. 

 

He is far too nonchalant during the final conversation in Trespasser, when asked "and what about the gods that would come back after the collapse of the Veil?". His response amounts basically to "Eh, I have some ideas". That is nowhere near good enough a contingency plan for a very literally world-shaking event. For all of his supposed wisdom and experience, it sounds like Solas is underestimating the Evanuris to a point that borders on blind arrogance. And that is only Evanuris we are talking about here. What about the Blights? The Old Gods? What about the remaining Magisters? Literally every single notable power in the world could possibly come at him full blast intent on taking him down with extreme prejudice, and his reaction to the possibility is "eh, I will manage." Dude. This tendency to underestimate your opponents is downright grossly negligent when you look at Corypheus - Solas gave him the orb, thinking "eh, he is just some Magister schmuck who does not know proper magic, what is he going to do with it? Besides blowing himself up, that is. Lol." This cocksure attitude of his seems to have been working out fantastic so far.

 

Another thing that bothers me is that the world has changed significantly since he was asleep, yet he consciously and consistently refuses to acknowledge the fact. Following the creation of the Veil, it has settled into new rhythms and beats, it gave rise to new structures and powers. For all intents and purposes, the Thedas Solas has woken could just as well be a completely different planet, for how little it resembles, down to a very fundamental level, the world of Arlathan and the Evanuris that he left behind. He knows very little about "contemporary" Thedas. He just wakes up, blinks in the sunlight, looks at the peoples and forces that have been keeping, maintaining and living in this world for the last few hundreds of generations, while he slept and did precisely nothing, and immediately goes "nope, this thing is not like the thing I remember and therefore it is wrong because it is different. And I do not like things that are different. So, boom and bye!", all before his first morning coffee. And even when he does learn more about the "new" Thedas, he is still hell-bent on his insane, genocidal plan. He gives this new world no benefit of the doubt, no chance to realize itself, to continue evolving, to become something. The thing that terrifies me about his entire plan, aside from his criminal inability to assess the strength of his foes without his personal arrogant bias clouding his judgement, is the fact that after he practically destroys and abandons his world, he comes back to this new one, sees that new saplings have started sprouting from the scorched ground while he was absent, and his first reaction is to start another fire before he even sees where it all goes, because this new life is not exactly like the forest that once stood here and which he himself burned to the ground. To me, that is heinous.

 

I think that a part of his problem is refusing to accept that the world has moved on. Yes, the creation of the Veil had some notable effects and yes, things were pretty apocalyptically bad shortly thereafter, but the world had settled, it has found new paths to continue along. Life, after all, will always find a way It will continue and it will thrive. By and large, the Thedas Solas wakes up into is one that does not need self-styled gods, even reluctant ones, to keep running, and I think that the realization of that fact makes Solas all the more bitter. Fen Harel has been all but forgotten and ignored and nobody cares; everybody is too busy carrying on with their daily lives - growing up, finding jobs, starting families, getting yelled at by their superiors, being happy, sad, living, dying. He views himself as a necessary savior, because he styles himself as one, not because there is an actual need for it.