87 réponses à ce sujet

[CaIIisto]

The way the game is presented, Anderson didn't need to be on the Citadel and die. Had TIM carried a pistol the whole time, the scene would've played out the same way without Anderson.

But the feels Mike, the feels......!

[CaIIisto]

Well, the Charon relay can't take Normandy to any system that you can't reach via standard FTL from Sol in a couple of weeks, since it's a secondary relay. (Benning doesn't have a relay, and it sounds like Alpha Centauri doesn't either. Not sure about Demeter; the Codex is ambiguous.) Unless we want to posit a multiple-stage journey --Charon-Arcturus, Arcturus-primary destination, and so forth -- they're nearby.

Of course. And the scenes in question don't really give any indication that Joker is plotting/flying a multi-stage journey.

[themikefest]

But the feels Mike, the feels......!

Maybe so, but I'm not a fan of that scene

[CaIIisto]

Maybe so, but I'm not a fan of that scene

Or Anderson, from memory

[Whitering]

I never picked one of the originals, by the time I got to the Citadel the fury had blown all over the internet and I waited for the ending DLC, which only doubled down on it, and decided not to finish it until modders fixed it (I LOVE MODDERS!), which they have to the best of their ability. So, now I have played the Citadel Ending and am on a playthrough with MEHEM and Citadel Ending now. I am very excited to see how that plays.

[IndianaJonesYay]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean anything. Zaeed doesn't have to be out of the Sol cluster, and those geth and quarians aren't necessarily ones who came to Sol.

 

Touche.

 

Have you heard this conversation?

Spoiler

 

And then heard this conversation from Joker about his sister and father

Spoiler

 

And then this conversation between Liara and Joker about his sister and father

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugh9O3gWZoA

 

The way the game is presented, Anderson didn't need to be on the Citadel and die. Had TIM carried a pistol the whole time, the scene would've played out the same way without Anderson.

 

I had followed those conversations about the Tiptree incident. I was still kind of hoping for a firmer resolution, but thanks for patching all that together.

[Big I]

Whats everyone elses thoughts? I'm unsure weather to go synth or destroy on my next run in ME3. I'm still on ME1 on my current shep. 

 

If you care about EDI and the geth don't choose destroy. Because they all die.

If you care about Javik don't choose synthesis. Because he hates synthetics and would hate being a cyborg.

If you care about rebuilding the galaxy and the relay network choose control. Because the Reapers help rebuild.

 

That's why I always choose Control.

[Whitering]

If you care about EDI and the geth don't choose destroy. Because they all die.

If you care about Javik don't choose synthesis. Because he hates synthetics and would hate being a cyborg.

If you care about rebuilding the galaxy and the relay network choose control. Because the Reapers help rebuild.

 

That's why I always choose Control.

Many, many people don't want to be synthetic, I doubt the Quarians would want it either, given their past, probably not the Asari either, who live for a thousand years and are super biotics, basically the prime of biological evolution there.

 

Control is the best ending as presented presuming you could trust the Reapers, which prior to the extended cut, you definitely could not, since they probably made the same promise to Saren.

[Jeniva]

I don't think the Normandy would want to stay on that weird planet, they'd want to get back and help rebuild - find out exactly what's going on. And most of all LI would want to see Shepard (if alive) again. So I would expect they'd be willing to do a multi-stage relay journey back to the citadel / wherever Shepard is being treated. 

Also their comms must still be OK because they found out about Anderson dying? 

Anderson was very much a father figure to Shepard. Him being at the end only enforced the destroy option - no way would he agree on synth or control. Also, many feels. And it doesn't give us the option to save 'everyone' - he'll die regardless. 

I don't like control at all. It's exactly what TIM wanted to do. And after watching the control ending, reaper Shepard freaks me out big time. Whose to say that the weird reaper shepard doesn't just one day turn out like all the other reapers, and goes on a nice harvesting spree etc. 
I can't see everyone just accepting the reapers help either. When the reapers stop attacking, do you think everyone would just be like: eh ok I guess we're allies now, nevermind the thousand of millions of lives that's been destroyed. 

 

I see synth as the ending that is most beneficial to AI's but would still ****** a lot of people off. Also I saw a post about something Legion said about not agreeing with forcing beings into being something they aren't - that's kind of all synth does. 

[fraggle]

Also their comms must still be OK because they found out about Anderson dying? 

 

I don't think comms are working because they actually want to go ahead and put both name plates on the wall. I guess if Shepard really survives, the LI doesn't know, but has hope, and thus does not put the name plate on it. It's simply a gesture of not losing hope, of believing that Shepard is alive.

[Jeniva]

I don't think comms are working because they actually want to go ahead and put both name plates on the wall. I guess if Shepard really survives, the LI doesn't know, but has hope, and thus does not put the name plate on it. It's simply a gesture of not losing hope, of believing that Shepard is alive.

 

Hm that still doesn't make sense to me. I'd say comms is working - hackett knew Anderson was dead (I haven't played in a while, I think he knew?) he was talking to Shepard anyway by the end. He knew Shepard was pretty much screwed and could assume Shep would die. 

Normandy only knew that the crucible was armed and fired, and got away. If they had no comms they wouldn't know where Anderson was, if he was alive etc. I'd assume Hackett would have told them he died and that Shepard has destroyed the reapers. Due to the explosion I would think they wouldn't find Shepard immediately and would have to go looking through all the rubble etc. Not sure what ships would be around the citadel or if it was evacuated etc? As I said I can't remember the ins and outs largely, been a while since I finished. 

Anyway I'd like to think with highest EMS destroy ending: 
Normandy gets away. Finds out Anderson is dead, unsure of Shepard as they haven't recovered a body/heard from Shep yet. 
Eventually the military finds Shepard barely alive, takes Shepard to a facility to get healed up. I'd think Hackett knew where Shepard roughly was, not on Earth - and could have sent some search party. 
They let the Normandy know Shep is alive. 
The relays are damaged but not destroyed with high EMS (I think?). MIke said earlier they survive. Eventually Normandy gets back to Shepard maybe via multiple jumps or awaiting a few weeks for some more repairs on the relay. 

[CaIIisto]

I don't think the Normandy would want to stay on that weird planet, they'd want to get back and help rebuild - find out exactly what's going on. And most of all LI would want to see Shepard (if alive) again. So I would expect they'd be willing to do a multi-stage relay journey back to the citadel / wherever Shepard is being treated.

I don't think they'd need to. In the Normandy's escape at the end of the game they either went into FTL and got caught by the beam, or they jumped to the Charon relay and went through it and got caught by the beam. Either way, if the relays are down in the short to medium term, FTL would be good enough to get them back as relatively speaking the planet they ended up stranded on would be close to Earth.

Also their comms must still be OK because they found out about Anderson dying?

Most likely educated guesswork rather than them being in touch with anyone still around Earth.

Re Control - far too risky. You leave the Reapers under the control of a single entity, who isn't really even Shepard. If the Shepalyst ever concludes that organics need purging then there's very little to stop them from succeeding this time. The Crucible was a one-shot trick and we already know that a conventional win would be out of the question.

Synthesis, is just abhorrent. You're stretching your mandate incredibly by going down that route. You're fundamentally changing every life in the galaxy, even when there's a far less intrusive option available to you. AIs are sacrificed in Destroy, but the Geth, and EDI knew the risks.

[CaIIisto]

Hm that still doesn't make sense to me. I'd say comms is working - hackett knew Anderson was dead (I haven't played in a while, I think he knew?) he was talking to Shepard anyway by the end. He knew Shepard was pretty much screwed and could assume Shep would die.
Normandy only knew that the crucible was armed and fired, and got away. If they had no comms they wouldn't know where Anderson was, if he was alive etc. I'd assume Hackett would have told them he died and that Shepard has destroyed the reapers. Due to the explosion I would think they wouldn't find Shepard immediately and would have to go looking through all the rubble etc. Not sure what ships would be around the citadel or if it was evacuated etc? As I said I can't remember the ins and outs largely, been a while since I finished.

I can't remember if Hackett knows that Anderson is dead or not. Shepard could have told him when they were in conversation at the end, or he may just have assumed that Anderson died in the beam run. Same goes for the Normandy, they just knew that the beam run team were decimated. I don't think they knew that Anderson made it up to the Citadel hence again probably guessed that he was killed on Earth.

We know that some ships at least are close to the Citadel at the end. Makes sense as ships damaged in battle most likely wouldn't have been able to jump, hence some sort of rescue should have been possible pretty quickly.

Anyway I'd like to think with highest EMS destroy ending:
Normandy gets away. Finds out Anderson is dead, unsure of Shepard as they haven't recovered a body/heard from Shep yet.
Eventually the military finds Shepard barely alive, takes Shepard to a facility to get healed up. I'd think Hackett knew where Shepard roughly was, not on Earth - and could have sent some search party.
They let the Normandy know Shep is alive.
The relays are damaged but not destroyed with high EMS (I think?). MIke said earlier they survive. Eventually Normandy gets back to Shepard maybe via multiple jumps or awaiting a few weeks for some more repairs on the relay.

The relays are badly damaged, but no, not destroyed. Given the "everything can be repaired" line then it's safe to assume that they are at some point. My guess would be years rather than decades. I think the Normandy is out of touch with Earth and wouldn't know about Shepard or Anderson (conclusively) until they got back within comms range of Earth when they were making their return journey. In terms of timescale for that, I think pretty quickly. They're stranded relatively close to Earth anyway, so once the ship/FTL drive is repaired then I'd guess at week's/months to get back via FTL.

[fraggle]

Hm that still doesn't make sense to me. I'd say comms is working - hackett knew Anderson was dead (I haven't played in a while, I think he knew?) he was talking to Shepard anyway by the end. He knew Shepard was pretty much screwed and could assume Shep would die.

 

Personally I think that since most (or even all?) of the comm buoys are mass relays, they are affected by the wave if they weren't previously destroyed anyway. That's why it could take weeks to get across messages and many civilians can't find out stuff about their loved ones I think.

AFAIR, the Normandy is using a Quantum Entanglement Communicator, I still think this could not work in the end. Who knows what's affected by the wave. Or maybe the other half of the pair got destroyed, or their own QEC was affected. Comms are severly limited anyway it seems since Arcturus Station, their comm center, was destroyed by the Reapers early on. So while I think it's possible to get comms working again soon, I don't think it still works when they crash-land. I don't know if what I think is right though, no idea, haven't dug too deep into this topic

But I'm with Callisto on this, I think they just really assume that Anderson didn't make it, and also assume Shepard didn't, except for that ray of hope. If you look at the cutscene in the end, the Normandy flies by the Citadel just when it looks like it's about to blow up. I headcanon that some of the crew think this leads to Shepard's death, while others have hope (for me Garrus held the plate as a friend And Liara also keeps her hopes up) until they know for sure.

And I also headcanoned the Normandy to be back on Earth after a few months.

[CaIIisto]

You don't really need to look beyond Joker's reaction to being ordered to pull out and head to the rendezvous point - it's clear that Joker sees this as leaving Shepard to die as if they won't go back for him/her then surely no one else will. In fact everyone on the bridge in that scene seems to appreciate the gravity of the situation.

[IndianaJonesYay]

One more thought about why Control makes little sense to me: when you run into the Reaper embryo in the Collector Base, EDI tells you that the Reapers are not machines, but rather synthetic-organic hybrids. That whole ideas then seems to drop from the series. But if she's right, then why the big push for synthesis? The Reapers, apparently, already are hybrids, so why would the Catalyst push for all life to be synthesized? It clearly didn't make the Reapers into peace-makers.

 

And while I'm griping (again), the Catalyst says each cycle results in a new Reaper. Then how come all the Reapers pretty much look the same? You have the big ones that are modeled after Leviathan, and then ones like on Tuchanka and Rannoch that may be a second species that was smaller than Leviathan, though still big; but other than that, all the Reapers pretty much look the same. What about the "endless cycles" that have gone on? Just sayin'.

[Dantriges]

Oh the explanation was, that they look like their species on the inside, which doesn´t make sense at all. Yeah we graft a leviathan hull on a human skeleton.

[themikefest]

The comms thing is lame.

 

After the destroyer is destroyed, Anderson asks one of his guys to patch him  to Hackett.  Then a scene shows the crucible coming through the relay while Anderson is talking to Hackett. Ok.

 

After Shepard is shot by Harbinger, Major Coates and another marine can be heard saying retreat and regroup. So the comms at that point seem to be fine. But for some reason Anderson doesn't tell them to forget that order and make a push to the beam after Harbinger flies away. I would like to hear an answer to that.

 

Anderson and Shepard both make it up the beam. Both are able to talk to each other with no problem. So why didn't Anderson order everyone to the beam after Harbinger flew away? Is it beacuse the game was rushed? Was it because Bioware only wanted Anderson and Shepard on the Citadel to have that touchy-feely scene? I bet that's why.

 

Hackett receives a datapad mentioning someone made it on the Citadel. He says holy sh*t, she/he did it. Then says someone made on the Citadel and to give them time to open the arms. So who was it that saw Shepard go up the beam? We know Anderson knew Shepard went up the beam. He couldn't send a message to Hackett since he had ask someone to get a hold of Hackett. See above. It wasn't Shepard.

 

As Shepard moves through the chasm, interference occurs. What's causing it? A moment later TIM shows up. Is he carrying a mini-me jamming device that cause the loss of comms?

 

After the arms are opened, Hackett is heard over the comms. What happened to the interference? If TIM was carrying a mini-me jamming device, did it just shut itself off? Is this space magic?

 

Hackett says that the crucible isn't firing. This leads Shepard to make an effort to check the console before passing out on the platform. How convenient that Hackett called at that time? How did he know Shepard was on the Citadel? Didn't Coates say over the comms no one made it? Hackett receives a datapad that someone made it on the Citadel and just assumed it was Shepard. Whatever.

 

At this point I'm sure the fleets are taking a beating even with high ems. I don't know if Hackett heard Shepard's voice before he/she passed out, but I would've sent a shuttle to that location, once the arms opened, since time is not on his side.

 

Shepard gets up and meets the thing called catalyst. If Shepard was able to hear Hackett over the comms, he/she would guess Hackett could hear him/her. So why didn't Shepard make any effort to call Hackett? I don't care that Shepard was talking with the thing. I'm surprised he/she made no effort. What would happen if Shepard were to pass out again and not wake up? Would Hackett stand on his ship twiddling his thumbs waiting for something to happen?

 

What does the above have to do with the Normandy on the unknown planet? Not much except that its possible Hackett never knew Anderson was on the Citadel with Shepard.

 

During the memorial scene, Anderson's name is already on the wall. How do they know he's dead? Who told them? There's nothing to suggest that anyone knew Anderson was on the Citadel except that comment by Hackett when he says we need to give them time to open the arms. I guess that could count, but what about the comment he made before that someone made it on the Citadel. Is it a writing error?

 

How much time passed from the crucible firing its beam of goodies to the time that Anderson was found dead? It wouldn't make sense having his name on the wall if it wasn't confirmed he was dead.  Who informed the Normandy he was dead?

 

Did Hacketts ship get back to the Citadel, locate Anderson's body and then informed the Normandy? That's possible if the Normandy is stuck on the unknown planet if ems is below 2600. What if ems is above 2600? The Normandy flies off the unknown planet without any problems.

 

If ems is below 3100, Shepard's name is put on the wall. Ok. So whoever found Anderson's body also found Shepard's body. What about control and synthesis? How do you know Shepard is dead without a body? If anything, they could just have it that Shepard is currently missing.

 

If ems is above 3100, the LI or whoever holding the nameplate is, hesitates to put up the nameplate. Why? If Shepard was found dead with ems below 3100, then Shepard would be found alive and that hesitation would not be needed.

 

If the Normandy is stuck on the unknown planet, ems below 2600, it will be stuck there for a long time. Remember seeing its thrusters being ripped from the ship? I doubt they have the parts on hand to rebuild them. The other thing is that the Normandy should be in pieces with everyone onboard dead.

 

With ems above 2600. the Normandy flies off with no problem leaving it up to the player how long it takes for the Normandy to get back to the citadel.

[AlanC9]

One more thought about why Control makes little sense to me: when you run into the Reaper embryo in the Collector Base, EDI tells you that the Reapers are not machines, but rather synthetic-organic hybrids. That whole ideas then seems to drop from the series. But if she's right, then why the big push for synthesis? The Reapers, apparently, already are hybrids, so why would the Catalyst push for all life to be synthesized? It clearly didn't make the Reapers into peace-makers.

He doesn't say that synthesizing organics is to make them more peaceful. It's to make them more powerful. The core problem is that synthetics aren't limited by their biological fundamentals, and can, given sufficient time, "evolve" past organics.

And while I'm griping (again), the Catalyst says each cycle results in a new Reaper. Then how come all the Reapers pretty much look the same? You have the big ones that are modeled after Leviathan, and then ones like on Tuchanka and Rannoch that may be a second species that was smaller than Leviathan, though still big; but other than that, all the Reapers pretty much look the same. What about the "endless cycles" that have gone on? Just sayin'.

Bio didn't want to spend that much tine on individual Reaper models. I'd have put that as a fairly low priority myself.

[IndianaJonesYay]

He doesn't say that synthesizing organics is to make them more peaceful. It's to make them more powerful. The core problem is that synthetics aren't limited by their biological fundamentals, and can, given sufficient time, "evolve" past organics.


Bio didn't want to spend that much tine on individual Reaper models. I'd have put that as a fairly low priority myself.

 

I wouldn't have wanted to spend that much time on individual Reapers, either! So just don't insert an odd line of dialogue that runs counter to the appearance of the Reapers.

 

I thought the function of the Catalyst was to find a way to broker peace between organics and synthetics? Didn't Leviathan invent the Catalyst for that very reason? So isn't the goal that the Catalyst has thus far been unable to achieve a peaceful relationship between synthetics and organics? Guess I need to pay better attention at that conversation in Leviathan. Whatever its goal is, the Catalyst clearly wants you to pick synthesis.

 

BTW, Mike, superb points all. I know it's been said a million times, but for as well written the remainder of the trilogy is, the ending sequence just seems like somebody off the street walked in, did the Genesis version of the trilogy, and then threw the ending together.

[Jeniva]

Mike great points. 
A lot of plot holes I guess. 

 

I suppose an argument against why Anderson is up and they hesitate to put Shepards up is that maybe Hackett found out via comms that Anderson was dead. Or that when they recovered alive shepard they were on the verge of death and unsure if Shepard would live. But that's all just reaching for answers, I guess Bioware don't have any

The whole ending bit with the beam etc just doesn't make sense. 

[CaIIisto]

The safest thing to say about the comms is that it was intermittent, what with the frequent plot-static!

[Dantriges]

I assumed that the jamming with people outside the Citadel was tied to the state of the arms. Closed: jammed Open: not jammed. With exceptions to certain channels/transmitters.

Would make sense that you dont want civilians or spies in the populace broadcasting stuff in an emergency but keep civilian communications open when the thing is in normal use as a space city.

[AlanC9]

I wouldn't have wanted to spend that much time on individual Reapers, either! So just don't insert an odd line of dialogue that runs counter to the appearance of the Reapers.

It's not just a line of dialogue. There's also that whole human-reaper thingy. Which I'd have cut, myself.
 

I thought the function of the Catalyst was to find a way to broker peace between organics and synthetics? Didn't Leviathan invent the Catalyst for that very reason? So isn't the goal that the Catalyst has thus far been unable to achieve a peaceful relationship between synthetics and organics? Guess I need to pay better attention at that conversation in Leviathan. Whatever its goal is, the Catalyst clearly wants you to pick synthesis.

I'm only talking about what the Catalyst says in the endgame about the problem. If the Leviathans had known how the Catalyst would interpret its mandate, my guess is that they'd have given it different orders. Remember, organics wiping out synthetics isn't the problem; only the reverse is.

[dorktainian]

 the Catalyst says each cycle results in a new Reaper. Then how come all the Reapers pretty much look the same? You have the big ones that are modeled after Leviathan, and then ones like on Tuchanka and Rannoch that may be a second species that was smaller than Leviathan, though still big; but other than that, all the Reapers pretty much look the same. What about the "endless cycles" that have gone on? Just sayin'.

 

Leviathan need space suits / big reapers all look the same.