16 réponses à ce sujet

[Exalus]

Trespasser brought along some much needed skill diversity in terms of skill toggles as well as reworks to existing skills.

I was wondering what the optimal tank/agro control build for Cassandra as a tank in a limited/no crafting full party NM run would be?

 

Mathh85 suggests:

1 point   - Level 3:  Challenge [Vanguard, Right Side]

4 points - Level 7:  Bear Mauls the Wolves --> Turn the bolt --> Shield Bash --> Turn the Blade [Weapon and Shield]

2 points - Level 9: War Cry upgrade --> Trust The Steel [Vanguard, right side]

3 points - level 12: Grappling Chain --> Crippling Blows --> Combat Roll

 

Excellent thread can be found here: http://forum.bioware...skyhold-builds/

 

The holy trinity of Bear Mauls the Wolves --> Turn the bolt --> Turn the Blade is the keystone of SnS tanking so that stays. 

Livid looks absolutely amazing on paper and rushing bull allows you much needed mobility and multi target knockdown that will combo well with AoE skills like warcry+livid and bodyguard with the new upgrade.

 

I am planning:

1.Warcry + [call to arms] - doubles armor and effectively makes you immune to physical during the duration

2.Turn the bolt

3.Bear Mauls the Wolves

4.Shield bash

5.Turn the blade

6.Charging bull

7.Untouchable defense

8.Livid

9.Cutting words

10.Body guard

11.Body guard + [over here] - Secondary taunt

 

Post skyhold:

 

12.Spell purge

13.Maker’s will

14.There is no darkness

15.Wrath of heaven

16.Spell purge + [spell shatter]

17.Wrath of heaven + [breath of light]

18.Blessed blades (is this skill still terrible?)

19.Champions of the just

20.The last sacrifice

 

Any thoughts or experiences from those who have ran through the game recently?

 

[actionhero112]

I don't think either the S&S tree or 2h tree is worth investing in heavily anymore.

 

This is my Cassandra Tank Build.

 

Cassandra - Post Trespasser

 

In general I don't take Shield Bash early, and make a quick beeline to Horn of Valor, whose armor bonus, guard generation and damage bonus makes it extremely potent. When you have hundreds of guard, recovering 5-8 per hit is pretty crap, but because Horn of Valor's alternate upgrade, fortifying blast, works off of a % it innately scales with your max guard through the game. And it works for your entire party.

 

I take War Horn over Shield Bash because it's just better at ccing mooks and better at removing guard, which is everywhere with trials.

 

Also I ignore the left side of the Templar Tree. Half the reason I take templar is because it only takes 6 points to get all the good stuff. 

 

I don't take charging bull because the ai still tends to blow at using it.

 

However even in this build there are things I think are negotiable. I know a lot of people like chains for days (really bioware) and combat rolls alternate upgrade is almost class defining (The ai tends to use it like crap though)

[Exalus]

I had not even seen horn of valor's amazing new toggle till now. I definitely agree it deserves priority.

Combat roll + alt seems crazy broken in its current form so I will definately not use it a challenge run like this.

 

I've revised my tree based on your suggestions:

1.Warcry + [call to arms]

2.       Turn the bolt

3.       Bear Mauls the Wolves

4.Charging bull (I plan on having to micro manage a lot to stay alive anyways)

5.Grappling chain

6.       Crippling blow

7.       Coupe de grace

8.Horn of valor

9.Horn of valor + [fortifying blast]

10.Spell purge

11.   Champions of the just

12.   The last sacrifice

13.Wrath of heaven

14.Spell purge + [spell shatter]

15.Wrath of heaven + [breath of light]

16.   Untouchable defense

17.Livid

18.Livid + [Still Standing]

19.   Hamstring

20.   Deep reserves

21.War horn – Respec out of charging bull

22.War horn + [break their spirit]

23.Shield bash

24.   Turn the blade

25.Challenge

26.   Trust the steel

27.   Cutting words

 

 

I hate having only 8 skill slots so I can only choose one of the following : rushing bull, livid, bodyguard, shield bash.

I guess turn the blade turns into just another late game passive skill dump where once it was the pinnacle of tank passives.

Thanks for your input!

[ottffsse]

That seems right although I would take grappling chain a bit earlier as you will have more problems with that single tough enemy like a spellbinder rather than groups. Then i would go for horn of valour and upgrade once you have enough taunt on her through either war cry or grapple + payback strike and upgrades to both.

The problem for combat roll for ai controlled characters is that they sort of use it badly they roll away. Always maxcrit chance and take flow of battle no matter if you make her sns or two hander .

[PawsPause]

What fade touched materials would you all add to make the ultimate unkillable tank? Since fortyfying blast can always be ready after use due to high crit chance and flow of battle, silverite seems useless. I would think fade touched heal on hit, fade touched walking fortress, and fade touch heal 25% of damage taken.would be appropriate.

[jonmoore86]

ive been using walking fortress and horn of valor fade touched on my tanks. works pretty well

[PawsPause]

Did they fix fade touched horn of valor? I listed it under odd glitches and bugs introduced into patch 10. Others noticed that it wasn't working either.

[jonmoore86]

Hmm I haven't noticed if it was or not. I hear horn of valor going off all the time, but I also have cass and black wall specced for it and equipped with a cool down amulet, so it might still be bugged. If it is, I think I might switch it out for a good cc ability like pull of the abyss. I love heal on hit fade touched but I HATE farming for it. I don't know if I have been extremely unlucky or what but I have only gotten two of em over 3 playthroughs, and like 8 of the horn of valor variety. And unfortunately it's not one available for trial reward. So maybe it is just super rare.

[PawsPause]

Well this new patch just fixed fade touched horn of valor...and I just did a lot of crafting. Fuuuuuu

[Matth85]

I never saw the benefit of going for horn of valor over defensive stats. I'd rather get the three passives in the SnS tree. Not getting flanked mean you can rely on the AI to tank, less damage from archers mean you won't get absolutely murdered from afar and the 20% less damage seem to be calculated before anything else, meaning it's absolutely huge.

 

Guard, on the other hand, is just a flat out "shield". A full guard is 25% of your max health. Assuming you rock 1k health (That's late game, by the way), you got an aditional 250 at full guard. That's not a lot. Without any defensive, that's a single arrow from a low level enemy. You need defense to capitalize on it.

 

The other problem of going right for Horn of valor is the very first levels. Now, in a normal playthrough it might not matter much; but if you play with all trials on, on Nightmare, you won't get to level 4 before you are 1/3 done with Hinterlands, which includes roughly 4 rifts and a whole bunch of fighting. This means you will not have a taunt for roughly 1-2 hours of gameplay, against enemies that will murder anybody but the tank, and your tank will slowly die a painful death, since you lack any sort of solid healing that early and the tank can't hit fast enough to generate enough guard to not lose health.

 

If you really feel like the Horn of Valor is going to help you (The bonuses are rather meh pre-skyhold, without any sort of way to capitalize on it), then you could consider dropping Turn the Blade. With that in mind, I have yet to find anything stronger than Turn the Blade, Trust the Steel and the Masterwork Vanguard Armor found in Hinterlands (http://dragonage.wik..._Vanguard_Armor). After that, your tank will most likely never chug a potions unless bombarded by wraiths and/or archers or getting mauled by a 2 handed mauler.

 

Now, I will admit Horn of Valor is extremely useful. It allows the tank to top of his/her guard, which barely goes down with enough defense, it allows the squishy party members to survive one extra hit(Which is very important with trials!) and it allows any fast hitting character to tank any low dps enemies during the duration(Such as a mage or a DW rogue), which is also very useful. So, yeah. I can see the benefit of it at level 4, but I still think(and feel) it's inferior to running full defensives with taunt on the tank.

[Mr Fixit]

Guard, on the other hand, is just a flat out "shield". A full guard is 25% of your max health. Assuming you rock 1k health (That's late game, by the way), you got an aditional 250 at full guard.

 

As I understand it, Untouchable Defense gets you additional 25% to Guard, which apparently means that a warriors guard is now 50% of its health. If so, that's huge.

[Matth85]

Hm.. Good point. I am unsure if it gives a flat out 25% increase to 50%, or a 25% increase to a full 31.25%. 

Even then, without enough defense to support it, it's 2 hits at best. Of course, with enough defense, you can tank pretty much anything without ever losing all your guard.

 

For a mid-to-late-game build. having all the defensive passives, all guard bonuses, good guard generation and the guard sigil, will make you pretty much unkillable. I'd even go as far as to say you could tank as a 2 handed warrior at that point. 

[Exalus]

I encountered an elite spell binder with 4500 barrier that he kept recasting and could not get past the first fight in the hinterlands who is immune to freeze and by extension, shatter. It was literally impossible to win at level 4 and was incredibly demoralizing. I know I can level up and come back later at level 6 or so but I feel like the trial+NM+no crafting restriction may be too hard to be remotely enjoyable at this point.

 

 

I never saw the benefit of going for horn of valor over defensive stats. I'd rather get the three passives in the SnS tree. Not getting flanked mean you can rely on the AI to tank, less damage from archers mean you won't get absolutely murdered from afar and the 20% less damage seem to be calculated before anything else, meaning it's absolutely huge.

 

I take Turn the bolt, Bear Mauls the Wolves and Warcy upgraded first as these are vital for survival.

 

Where to path next is variable but its a choice between 2 points for shield bash/turn the blade vs 4 points to get horn of valor (5 with charging bull which is really useful imo to perma knock down dangerous enemies in conjunction with PB strike).

The main reason I lean towards horn of valor is due to fortifying blast offering guard to allies as well as much needed damage but this is completely untested so I may go back to the shield bash/ turn the blade/passives approach.

 

By the time I get to skyhold I'm going to rush to the massive spellpurge/wrath combo rather than putting 2 points for shield bash and turn the blade. Generally I quit at that point because the game becomes so easy with specialization skills. Beating envy demon/captain denim with a limited NM party is going to be magnitudes more difficult than soloing the toughest dragon in the game at level 25+ with ridiculous gear. 

[Matth85]

Aye. early levels with trial on you are unable to kill these mages. It's not even worth trying (Especially not when you play with all trials on. They will murder you). You just need to leg out of there, or CC them hard enough so that they never get the barrier up. It's just one of those thing you need to do.

 

This changes as you get a bit more levels, at which you rely on CC and dispel.

 

Anyways. Again, most non-tanks got next to no defensives. That means each enemy will hit for roughly 100-200% of what your guard can block. At best solas could take one extra hit at lower level. It's good, but I still don't think it's better than 20% damage reduction on the tank. Though this is me testing with all trials on, meaning I can't rely on healing. At that point any chipping damage on the tank is as deadly as a one hit kill. While my party can all be at 1 health fine, the tank can't be at low health.

 

I understand the feeling though. I tried a recent all" trials nightmare no crafting minimal tactical dw rogue" playthrough. After one shotting the tutorial without a single problem, I was able to clear roughly all of the east side of Hitnerlands (exluding the level 8 rift), and i was still level 3. It became a drag to kill stuff with the lack of abilities and gear, and the slow speed I gained levels. If I am doing a new All trials run challenge, I am probably doing it as a mage, or without the halving of xp!

 

Then again. I killed Fereldren Frostback at level 12, on nightmare, with 2 level 4 daggers, on nightmare, a year ago. That **** was fun. Thank god for OP tanks after level 8!

[FJVP]

Level 2. Shield Wall + War Cry + Payback Strike

Level 3. Grappling Chain

Level 4. Crippling Blows

Level 5. Hamstring

Level 6. Horn of Valor

Level 7. Fortifying Blast

 

If you are human, move everything one slot up (get Grappling Chain at lvl 2, Crippling Blows at lvl 3 and so on). After that just get whatever you want.

 

Upgrading War Cry at such low level is pointless because it only lasts 10 secs and it has a cooldown of 24 secs, and it will take you way more than 10 secs to clear a wave (nevermind that with such a low armor rating it will do nothing for you). Shield Wall, on the other hand, can negate damage, has no cooldown as long as you have good stamina, and can give you more guard (you can get rid of it at higher levels when your armor rating is better and War Cry becomes more useful).

 

Grappling Chain will also help you isolate enemies and pull archers & mages in. This is especially useful during Champions of the Just/In Hushed Whispers and In Your Heart Shall Burn due to the amount of these type of enemies that the game throws at you during those missions.

 

Horn of Valor upgraded is basically Rally but with more usability.

 

Also, get Toxic Cloud+Lost In the Mist (Varric can get this at level 3), Dispel (this is a must, especially if you plan to go the mage route) and Mana Surge (after Dispel). Toxic Cloud + Lost In the Mist will improve your survivability and you can do a combo of Grappling Chain -> Toxic Cloud -> Mana Surge -> Barrier (+Elegant Defense) that will allow you to keep enemies frozen in place while rarely taking damage.

 

Lastly, I really advise against the no crafting challenge. It will only give you a headache, especially during In Hushed Whispers/ Champions of the Just, believe me. I spent like 2 hrs last weekend trying to figure out how to take out the damn red templar archers in Champions because the mini-boss at the beginning kept eating through my health and the archers just finished me off, and I was using tier 2 equipment. Personally, I've made it an objective to only craft from schematics that the game gives me/I can purchase and it has kept the game fun but not frustrating. 

[Exalus]

Upgrading War Cry at such low level is pointless because it only lasts 10 secs and it has a cooldown of 24 secs, and it will take you way more than 10 secs to clear a wave (nevermind that with such a low armor rating it will do nothing for you). Shield Wall, on the other hand, can negate damage, has no cooldown as long as you have good stamina, and can give you more guard (you can get rid of it at higher levels when your armor rating is better and War Cry becomes more useful).

 

Even at level 4, I think Cass had 170 or so armor which is absolutely huge, I can't really think of a better point investment than an aoe taunt that also doubles your armor. 

It has a 40% uptime which is really good considering you're immune to most non-2hander physical damage during the duration.

 

Also, get Toxic Cloud+Lost In the Mist (Varric can get this at level 3), Dispel (this is a must, especially if you plan to go the mage route) and Mana Surge (after Dispel). Toxic Cloud + Lost In the Mist will improve your survivability and you can do a combo of Grappling Chain -> Toxic Cloud -> Mana Surge -> Barrier (+Elegant Defense) that will allow you to keep enemies frozen in place while rarely taking damage.

 

I'm thinking dispel will be mandatory for sure considering the abundance of barrier and rifts. I had not considered lost in the mist. Trespasser gave us so many new shiny toys.

 

Lastly, I really advise against the no crafting challenge. It will only give you a headache, especially during In Hushed Whispers/ Champions of the Just, believe me. I spent like 2 hrs last weekend trying to figure out how to take out the damn red templar archers in Champions because the mini-boss at the beginning kept eating through my health and the archers just finished me off, and I was using tier 2 equipment. Personally, I've made it an objective to only craft from schematics that the game gives me/I can purchase and it has kept the game fun but not frustrating. 

 

I might have to bite the bullet on this one. I recall doing a nm no crafting run in the past and found it very tactical as opposed to now where it's simply an impossible and unejoyable hurdle.

 

 

I understand the feeling though. I tried a recent all" trials nightmare no crafting minimal tactical dw rogue" playthrough. After one shotting the tutorial without a single problem, I was able to clear roughly all of the east side of Hitnerlands (exluding the level 8 rift), and i was still level 3. It became a drag to kill stuff with the lack of abilities and gear, and the slow speed I gained levels. If I am doing a new All trials run challenge, I am probably doing it as a mage, or without the halving of xp!

 

I think there's a fine line between challenging and sadistic and halving your exp with all other factors included is too much. I will definitely not be using this specific trial.

[Matth85]

No crafting run is perfectly fine. Even if you are unlucky, there are enough placed loot and bought items to keep you up-to-date. 

The only runs that is remotely challenging are:

1) All trials (They are generally easy, but it gets dreadfully painful when you need to worry about your companions leaving and the fact getting to level 4 takes ages!)

3) solo nightmare all trials (Now this one is a drag!).

 

Get to level 8, and your tank will never die. In fact, if you can get to level 4, you got a smooth run ahead. It's the first level, with all trials on, that is painful. You lack any sort of decent combination of skills.