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A question of Consistency (spoilers)


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#1
Gervaise

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I've been reflecting on events and things said in DAI and feel that the internal consistency of the world that was initially shown to us in DAO is being thrown into doubt.   Naturally there are those events where players can exercise choice over outcomes and thus you do not expect consistency.   However, there are others where there is an established history that has gone before and events that take place in the course of the game that do not change according to player choice, except in very extreme cases that very few people choose.   So the attitudes of people throughout should be consistent with what went before and this seems not the case.   This is particularly apparent in the case of the Wardens.

 

As I understand it, the only country that previous expelled the Wardens was Ferelden.   People elsewhere may have become complaisant about the need for them given the number of years from the previous Blights but I do not recall that they are openly hostile towards the Wardens.   On the contrary places like the Freemarches and Antiva in particular should have strong reasons to remember the actions of the Wardens in the 4th Blight with gratitude.    

 

Ditto Ferelden and the 5th Blight.   It was the heroic king Marric who invited the Wardens to return to Ferelden.    It was the treacherous Loghain, who suggested that the Wardens were to blame for Cailan's death and he was subsequently discredited.   No matter who takes the throne, they suggest the new initiative of the Wardens taking up an actual effective lordship in the north by offering them Vigil's Keep.   This proves largely a success and the Wardens again prove the need for their presence in countering the activities of the Architect and the Mother.   The majority of the Wardens manning Vigil's Keep were in fact Orlesian, in fact the Warden Commander could be if you did the ultimate sacrifice, yet the ruler of Ferelden seemed to have no problem with this.

 

Yet in DAI and Trespasser we suddenly seem to encounter hostility to the Wardens, not just in Orlais, which is understandable, but everywhere.   If you ask the Wardens to leave Orlais, which is a sensible move considering how Corypheus can influence them and really for their own protection, we discover at the end that not only is the banishment from Orlais permanent but they are leaving everywhere.   This seems entirely due to the influence of the Inquisition, even though you can specifically refused to make diplomatic use of their problems in the rest of Thedas, but no matter how strong the Inquisition seems to be in Orlais and Ferelden, other nations would not be so quick to turn on an order that has been their saviour in the past.    In any case, we can't be that strong since we are told that we can't simply keep the Inquisition going in its current state  since we wouldn't be able withstand it if Orlais and Ferelden united against us.

 

Then there is the attitude of Teagan towards the Wardens in the Council and previously in correspondence to Clarel.    The letter from Clarel to Teagan  would seem to suggest that Ferelden is preventing further aid from Grey Wardens in their country.   It is not clear what time period this relates to but why is Teagan the one being appealed to when the Grey Wardens are already there at the invitation of the monarch and this was arranged directly with the leadership in Weisshaupt?   The letter references the actions of Sophia Dryden when the former bad feeling engendered by her actions has long since been superceded by the events given above.   Then you have Teagan speaking at the Council.    Again he is referencing the earlier banishment of the Wardens.    If this is meant to be showing what he could do to the Inquisition, it is a bit lame considering how much bigger an organisation the Inquisition has become.    Still you have two instances when Teagan, apparently acting with his monarch's approval, is harking back to a much earlier period to show prejudice against the Wardens.

 

Yet this is the Teagan who wouldn't even be alive but for the actions of the Wardens in Ferelden.    This is the Teagan who challenged the version of events being promoted by Loghain and put doubts in the mind of Queen Anora.     This is the Teagan whose own brother, Eamon, seemed perfectly happy to get the Wardens involved in politics when it suited his agenda.    This is the Teagen whose own nephew (in the vast majority of cases) is either still an operating Grey Warden who helped save his country or is in fact a Grey Warden on the throne of Ferelden with the approval of the Bannorn.   

 

Then having been told in the epilogue of the main game of sinister goings on at Warden HQ in the Anderfels, with all news ceasing including that of Hawke (if you chose to save them), and at the beginning of Trespasser Varric still being none the wiser,  at the end of Trespasser, Hawke is alive and well and helping Varric run Kirkwall, with no indication of why they have suddenly turned up unharmed.     Even the Warden, who was meant to be off finding some sort of cure for the taint in the West, in some versions turns up back with their beloved Leliana with no mention of whether or not they did find a cure.

 

This is not the only example of lack of consistency but it is the most glaring one, particularly since anyone who has played all through the series has a certain affinity with the Wardens and would naturally take an interest in these things.   


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#2
Daerog

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- "Established history," careful with that, as the only facts are the events that happened in the game. All else is speculation, assumption, etc.

 

- The Wardens have land, resources, wealth. If a lord has an excuse to kick the Wardens out to claim any of that, it's not beyond reason to think the lord would proceed with that excuse. Blights are usually hundreds of years apart, and the Wardens seem to come and help regardless, so if a local lord or nation can profit between Blights, they might just do that.

 

- We don't know the thoughts of the leaders of these nations and powers, their complete history and/or diplomacy with the Wardens. Anything said of such matters is guesswork.

 

- Teagan is looking out for the interests of Fereldan. He is a politician that will use anything to support his agenda, which is removing a threat to Fereldan interests. He is willing to put personal relationships aside in favor of his nation... he sounds like a patriot... So, this is probably just another part of Teagan, the patriot side, that reveals more about his character.

 

 

I think the only real inconsistency is the teachings of the Chantry concerning the Maker... although that could just be excused as different schools of thought and interpretations of the Chant and Chantry teachings within the Chantry, with Fereldan being more about complete abandonment and Orlais being more about subtle help like Leliana talked about in Origins.



#3
Evamitchelle

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I didn't get the impression that the other countries were asking the Wardens to leave as well, it sounded more like Weisshaupt was recalling Wardens from all over Thedas because they have their own internal trouble. We seem to be heading towards Tevinter during the next game, and Weisshaupt is a lot closer to Tevinter than Orlais, so it'd make more sense to handle the Warden trouble in the next game rather than gloss over it in an epilogue DLC. Hawke's involvement is kind of weird though, because it's resolved by the time of Trespasser's epilogue (which could be set anytime, really), while we still don't know what happened. 

 

I also felt that Teagan's "we banished the Grey Wardens when they became trouble" spiel was a bit too forced, especially considering that Alistair sits on the throne in my world state. 

 

But I don't find it too surprising that feelings towards the Wardens would have taken such a negative turn. Even at their best, the Wardens are a secretive and powerful organization who answer only to themselves, which can't make the local authorities too happy. A lot of Wardens have a past as criminals and their mages do not answer to the Circle, which is bound to make a lot of people uncomfortable.

 

Also, the Fifth Blight was only ten years past, and pretty much contained to Ferelden. So the neighbouring countries don't really have a recent example of Warden heroism (last Blight was about 400 years ago), and some may figure that they have a few centuries until the next Blight, so Wardens aren't particularly relevant at the moment. Most damning are their actions during Inquisition though. Wardens actively participated in the murder of the Divine, the 'Most Holy', 'best of the Maker's children' etc. They also tried to summon a demon army that would have been used by Corypheus to destroy Orlais. 

 

All in all, I'm not surprised that the Wardens' reputation has suffered so much. 


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#4
Reznore57

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The only place where the wardens are still truly heroes is the Anderfels.

 

They have been on the decline since they lost the griffons , I think it was during the 4th blight 400 years ago or something...

And the truth is the last Blight was a joke , it lasted one year and only the south of Ferelden was in danger.

In DAI you hear complains about wardens all the time , people whines they can conscript , they can take your stuff etc..

 

The wardens are in a bad situation and the truth is the 5th Blight just made things worst .



#5
ShadowLordXII

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Agreed, the apparent "backlash" against the Grey Wardens is pretty ham-fisted and unfounded.

 

Seriously, what happened in the past 10 to 12 years for Ferelden and especially Teagan to badmouth and apparently distrust the Wardens even after so many of them died trying to save their country and the survivors actually saved Ferelden from the Blight and from it's own civil war? If this is meant to drive in the "dis-gratitude of the world" angle, then it's doing a good job of creating another reason to join Corypheus or Solas.

 

Plus, this is not the first time that consistency has been ignored just look at the Dalish and the Darkspawn.


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#6
Gervaise

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I repeat that the events in Awakening seem to have been totally ignored.      That was a big deal at the time.    The Wardens had never had such an offer before and they were anxious to make it a success.    It was done with the approval of the monarch and meant that there was already a substantial Warden presence in Ferelden helping rebuild after the Blight.     So the Teagan/Clarel correspondence makes little sense.    I've checked and it seems to take place after the events at Redcliffe.

 

To my mind, if Clarel is trying to get into Ferelden independently of the knowledge of HQ and the Wardens at Vigil's Keep, then Teagan would just refer her to the fact that they already have the Warden base at Vigil's Keep doing just the job she is asking to perform and suggest she contacts there.    Alternatively, if the Wardens at Vigil's Keep are already under the control of Corypheus, why draw attention to the fact by Clarel trying to work independently of them?

 

It is this harking back to the events of Sophie Dryden to explain his response  and his later referencing of this at the Council that make no sense.


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