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"What you flail at rifts, I crafted to assault the very heavens..."


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#51
In Exile

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Isn't that assumption at this point ? We don't know how Solas create the Veil. The creation of the Veil might have had nothing to do with the Anchor.

 

And I know Corypheus was wrong. In Your Heart Shall Burn would have played out very differently if he was. I'm merely saying I found it convenient.

 

I think it's more a reasonable inference than an assumption at this point. There is a great deal of evidence in support, not the least of which is: 

 

1. The Anchor is essential to manipulating the Veil (and passing through it). We use the Anchor by itself to: (i) pass into the physical Fade at Adamant through will alone; and (ii) use it to open and close "paths" in the Fade. 

2. The Anchor, combined with the foci, can "heal" the Veil - we re-created a significant chunk of the Veil (in a very rough way) after defeating Corypheus. 

3. Corypheus (or the Inquisitor) aquiring the Anchor was never part of the original plan Solas concocted: Corypheus was supposed to nuke himself trying to unlock the foci.

4. Solas specifically took it back. It matters to his plot, which we know is to remove the Veil. 

 

I think all of this suggests that the Anchor is part of the mechanism (or spell, or whatever) that Solas used to create the Veil. 


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#52
Arisugawa

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I think it's more a reasonable inference than an assumption at this point. There is a great deal of evidence in support, not the least of which is: 

 

1. The Anchor is essential to manipulating the Veil (and passing through it). We use the Anchor by itself to: (i) pass into the physical Fade at Adamant through will alone; and (ii) use it to open and close "paths" in the Fade. 

2. The Anchor, combined with the foci, can "heal" the Veil - we re-created a significant chunk of the Veil (in a very rough way) after defeating Corypheus. 

3. Corypheus (or the Inquisitor) aquiring the Anchor was never part of the original plan Solas concocted: Corypheus was supposed to nuke himself trying to unlock the foci.

4. Solas specifically took it back. It matters to his plot, which we know is to remove the Veil. 

 

I think all of this suggests that the Anchor is part of the mechanism (or spell, or whatever) that Solas used to create the Veil. 

 

1) We don't know that it is or was essential to creating it, though. It could have been akin to a massive bomb that created an energy field, and now the Anchor is merely a means of manipulating that energy.

2) And again, we're talking about manipulating something currently in existence as opposed to creating it.

3) This is irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not the Anchor was necessary for the creation of the Veil.

4) Did he take it back or merely remove it? And even if Solas took it back, it still doesn't imply anything other than manipulation of something currently in existence as opposed to using it to create the Veil in its entirety. The implication would be that Solas had the Anchor once before and removed it before going into his long slumber, and then decided to recreate it. Which is something I again find unlikely, if he is truthful that he could have born it without dying. Why remove it in the first place if he was not in danger from it?



#53
Lumix19

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Solas, if he didn't create the Anchor outright, used it (in some very important way) to create the Veil. His mastery of the Anchor is on another level from Corypheus, who quite ironically wanted to flay it at rifts while Solas used it to create the heavens.

The simple truth is Corypheus was wrong, much in the same way he was wrong about so much else (e.g. the Well of Sorrows).


Yes, perhaps Solas did something to the Anchor when he was stabilizing it to prevent it from being stolen. The orb was likely the source of most of Corypheus' knowledge but it just echoes what Solas knows.
I wouldn't say he was wrong about the Well, he knew enough to prepare a Vessel to contain it, instead of taking it for himself.

#54
Lumix19

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1) We don't know that it is or was essential to creating it, though. It could have been akin to a massive bomb that created an energy field, and now the Anchor is merely a means of manipulating that energy.
2) And again, we're talking about manipulating something currently in existence as opposed to creating it.
3) This is irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not the Anchor was necessary for the creation of the Veil.
4) Did he take it back or merely remove it? And even if Solas took it back, it still doesn't imply anything other than manipulation of something currently in existence as opposed to using it to create the Veil in its entirety. The implication would be that Solas had the Anchor once before and removed it before going into his long slumber, and then decided to recreate it. Which is something I again find unlikely, if he is truthful that he could have born it without dying. Why remove it in the first place if he was not in danger from it?


To remain hidden perhaps? The Anchor's power might have drawn unwanted attention.

#55
FemShem

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At Haven Corypheus is pretty clear that, at the very least, he crafted the Anchor. Yet, Solas claims, had Corypheus died he would have used the mark the Inquisitor bears to tear down the Veil. Who is telling the truth. I know the orb belongs to Fen'harel but the Anchor? Was it not crafted by Corypheus using the orb? or was he simply lying?

I think it's a sharp bit of dialogue the writer didn't want to let go of for a rewrite, IMHO;)



#56
Arisugawa

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To remain hidden perhaps? The Anchor's power might have drawn unwanted attention.

 

It's always possible. Any number of possibilities exist, ranging from he couldn't enter his slumber with the Anchor active, to unwanted attention, to he had to be conscious in order to counteract any negative physical side effects.

 

We don't know.

 

I'm merely saying we don't have sufficient information to hypothesize that the Anchor was necessary for the creation of the Veil.



#57
In Exile

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1) We don't know that it is or was essential to creating it, though. It could have been akin to a massive bomb that created an energy field, and now the Anchor is merely a means of manipulating that energy.

2) And again, we're talking about manipulating something currently in existence as opposed to creating it.

3) This is irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not the Anchor was necessary for the creation of the Veil.

4) Did he take it back or merely remove it? And even if Solas took it back, it still doesn't imply anything other than manipulation of something currently in existence as opposed to using it to create the Veil in its entirety. The implication would be that Solas had the Anchor once before and removed it before going into his long slumber, and then decided to recreate it. Which is something I again find unlikely, if he is truthful that he could have born it without dying. Why remove it in the first place if he was not in danger from it?

 

1) I'm not sure I understand your point. Let's say I grant your position: the Anchor is the means by which Solas "manipulates" energy to create (or remove) the Veil. That makes it essential to creating (or removing) the Veil. Something is essential if it's a necessary condition. The anchor is a tool. But, of course, I don't grant that position. We see the Anchor as the only instrument - the only thing - in existence that we can use to willingly manipulate the Veil. Not punch a whole in it, the way death on a wide scale does (which is how the Veil weakens beforehand). No, we see the anchor heal and manipulate the Veil. And we see the Anchor is tied - even part of - an instrument (the foci) that meant everything to Solas, and seems to have been the focal point of his prior plot to remove the Veil. It's willfull blindess to say that the Anchor isn't part of the process by which the Veil is created, and every bit of evidence we have as to its function suggests it's essential. 

2) That doesn't make any sense. If the Anchor is the instruct through which Solas manipulates the Veil, then it's essential to his purpose. The Anchor doesn't have to be everything by itself to be an essential instrument. 

3) That's nonsense. We are looking at the totality of circumstances; what forms part of that totality is absolutely relevant. The Anchor isn't just a by-product or something Corypheus created. It's part of the Foci - it's part of what Solas wanted to "power-up". The fact that it's integral to his plan - his plan to remove the Veil - is proof of its importance in the process of making it. 

4) Patrick Weekes confirms he took it back. Beyond, now we're actually entering into the realm of pure speculation. The Anchor may not have been meant to be bound to a person - that may have been an accident. Even if it was meant to be bound to a person, maybe the ritual to use it - the proper ritual, which created the Veil - also automatically removes it. Maybe - even if that isn't true - whatever forced Solas to rest/sleep (or his decision to rest/sleep) required him to remove the Veil. 



#58
Arisugawa

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1) I'm not sure I understand your point. Let's say I grant your position: the Anchor is the means by which Solas "manipulates" energy to create (or remove) the Veil. That makes it essential to creating (or removing) the Veil. Something is essential if it's a necessary condition. The anchor is a tool. But, of course, I don't grant that position. We see the Anchor as the only instrument - the only thing - in existence that we can use to willingly manipulate the Veil. Not punch a whole in it, the way death on a wide scale does (which is how the Veil weakens beforehand). No, we see the anchor heal and manipulate the Veil. And we see the Anchor is tied - even part of - an instrument (the foci) that meant everything to Solas, and seems to have been the focal point of his prior plot to remove the Veil. It's willfull blindess to say that the Anchor isn't part of the process by which the Veil is created, and every bit of evidence we have as to its function suggests it's essential. 

2) That doesn't make any sense. If the Anchor is the instruct through which Solas manipulates the Veil, then it's essential to his purpose. The Anchor doesn't have to be everything by itself to be an essential instrument. 

3) That's nonsense. We are looking at the totality of circumstances; what forms part of that totality is absolutely relevant. The Anchor isn't just a by-product or something Corypheus created. It's part of the Foci - it's part of what Solas wanted to "power-up". The fact that it's integral to his plan - his plan to remove the Veil - is proof of its importance in the process of making it. 

4) Patrick Weekes confirms he took it back. Beyond, now we're actually entering into the realm of pure speculation. The Anchor may not have been meant to be bound to a person - that may have been an accident. Even if it was meant to be bound to a person, maybe the ritual to use it - the proper ritual, which created the Veil - also automatically removes it. Maybe - even if that isn't true - whatever forced Solas to rest/sleep (or his decision to rest/sleep) required him to remove the Veil. 

 

1) My point is that you can have one mechanism to create the Veil and another mechanism to manipulate it once it is in place. For example, we find several artifacts that can, if Solas is telling the truth, strengthen the Veil in their area of effect. Were these artifacts necessary for the creation of the Veil? Unlikely. Similarly, in Origins, Avernus or the Sophia Dryden demon use magic to repair the Veil in Warden's Keep, but it is unlikely that this magic is the same used to create it. The Anchor, as far as we have seen, is the only thing that has outright closed tears in the Veil, but repairing tears is not the same thing as creating the thing being repaired.

 

I'm not saying the Anchor wasn't necessary, I'm saying we don't have enough evidence to make that claim yet. It isn't willful blindness; it is a reluctance to jump to a conclusion that can't be fully supported yet. At this point all we know is that it can affect the Veil in several ways, but the magic used to create the Veil could have been something much different. After all, we're talking about, by all assumptions, a spell that affected the entire world - we don't know enough about how it was made or what was required to make it to just say the Anchor was necessary.

 

2) Not at all. Think about it this way: Dagna said that the Anchor is like a key. A key can open, it can lock, etc. It has many uses, But you don't need the key to make the door, nor do you need the key to make the fortress the door is attached to. If the Anchor is a key, it could be a key that was created after the fortress and the door. Especially if it is one that Solas decided was necessary after he saw what the Veil did to his people.

 

3) No, it isn't. That's my point. It could simply be means of opening a fortress that he created by other means. Corypheus only wanted the key, and that part is completely irrelevant to the larger scheme of what created the Veil.

 

4) Link? The only thing I've read thus far from Patrick in the thread was that Solas removed the Anchor. But that doesn't mean he took it back, only that the Inquisitor no longer has it.



#59
Dai Grepher

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Actually the anchor acts up just before Mother Giselle greets you at the beginning. Whether it's hinting that its been doing it for a while and Quiz hasn't said anything, or it's acting out because of what Solas is doing in the Crossroads.

Cole made a comment that gave me the willies while in the Darvaarad(sp?) when Quiz's hand gets pretty bad. Something along the lines of:

"It's because of the veil. It wants to go back but it's trapped on you. I don't know how to help. I'm sorry."

 

Eh. The "acting up" normally happens. Sera's note seems ham-handed, especially since she hasn't seen the Inquisition in two years and when she sees him again he's wearing a glove. But fine, whatever. They're trying to say the mark is worse. Still, it didn't start hurting or messing up until this quest in the elven ruins. Logically, the Inquisitor should have avoided the quest and just let the multiplayer characters handle it or something. I hate forced storyline.
 



#60
Dai Grepher

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Also if you read Sera's journal thing right at the start before anything starts (Trespasser) she's written "don't mention how bad his/her hand looks. It looks really bad"

I guess off everything shown that Inky's hand is not going well at all during the two years, possibly even from the moment he/she got the anchor and it's just been delayed.

 

edit: And Inky's possible comment "it's been under control for years". under control.. not fine.. not never acted up. Under control.

 

I think that still would imply that it hasn't caused harm in those years. But whatever. Sera can tell even through gloves, even without actually seeing the Inquisitor's hand. Those elf eyes.
 



#61
Dai Grepher

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Spoiler

 

EDIT: In the spoiler section.

 

Well that's just dumb. Is he forgetting about healing magic? Oh, and health potions too.
 



#62
Dai Grepher

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The think is, he might not be a god but he is pretty close. How on earth could anyone in the Dragon Age oppose who is likely the most powerful mage of the age? He can turn people to stone at a thought, sever the Anchor from the Inquisitor. I don't think, at least in terms of pure power, anything could stop him.

 

Spoiler

 

Also...

 

Spoiler



#63
DeLaatsteGeitenneuker

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Spoiler

 

Also...

 

Spoiler

The HOF? is nowhere in Solas' league. Likely no one alive is.



#64
In Exile

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I think that still would imply that it hasn't caused harm in those years. But whatever. Sera can tell even through gloves, even without actually seeing the Inquisitor's hand. Those elf eyes.


It was badly handled by Bioware, I think. It makes sense that they wanted to convey the Anchor was getting out of control, but doing it more slowly. It is consistent with what we saw in the prologue - it was killing the Inquisitor until Solas calmed it down by using it to clam the breach.

The problem is that they didn't build up to it. With the other DLCs they should have had moments with it going out of control.
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#65
PorcelynDoll

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The HOF? is nowhere in Solas' league. Likely no one alive is.

The HoF can also be dead. Maybe Sandal is, remember in 2 when he turned the ogre to stone and said "not enchantment"?



#66
Dai Grepher

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The HOF? is nowhere in Solas' league. Likely no one alive is.

 

Dual weapon Berserker Champion Spirit Warrior "Seeker/Templar" wielding Vigilance, The Keening Blade, and Starfang. Last seen at level 35.

 

Or, Archne Warrior Bloodmage Keeper Shapeshifter with the Power of Blood, pyro spells, and most importantly...

 

Spoiler



#67
Madmoe77

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That's a failure of reading comprehension! I didn't say that Corypheus was the only unreliable source. Get over yourself.
 

Again, I don't think you understand what lying actually is. If you believe that it is "failure to fully disclose every possible fact at one's disposal and be a metaphorical open book to other people in relatively casual conversation", then you have a different understanding of lying than pretty much everybody who speaks or reads the English language. Similarly, emotional overreaction to trauma and an inability to be completely logical about serious events isn't automatically a lie either.
 

Aspects of Corypheus' story are indeed possible to corroborate, after a fashion. There's a reasonable consensus that Corypheus was a tainted being that was once a Tevinter magister; there is a probable identification of him as Sethius, of House Amladris. Both of these things have appeared in Inquisition and WoT 2, loosely classified as likely but not certain. The fact that Corypheus was tainted but not exactly the same as other darkspawn emissaries, combined with his extensive knowledge of ancient Tevinter, makes it likely that he participated in the attempt to reach the Golden/Black City. But, assuming that that happened, there is not a single shred of positive proof, aside from Corypheus' own claims, that he ever actually got there. Nor is there proof corroborating his claim that the city was empty (or that there was a throne in the city and it was empty, depending on how you read that particular line of his).

It is impossible to falsify Corypheus' claims because there is no possible way to come up with any evidence to refute it. Similarly, there is no possible way to come up with any evidence to positively corroborate it.

This is simply the nature of the problem: no one else was there. I don't have any particular bias against Corypheus, nor do I have any particular leaning toward Andrastianism or any other Thedosian religious tradition you care to name, but you have to understand what you don't understand. We can't take Corypheus at face value about the orb or the Fade any more than we could take the Guardian of the Temple of Sacred Ashes at face value about Andraste.

In fact, the game itself drives home the problem of autopsy to the player by using the Inquisitor's own experience. Did the player encounter Andraste in the Fade, or not? What exactly was that spirit-Justinia anyway? Was it Justinia herself or the spirit who helped the player escape the first time? What about the second time? None of this is made particularly clear. Whatever the player decides is the correct answer, and how passionately the character believes in it, is up to the player. The game certainly doesn't provide a clear answer.

 

I like that dance you have, it's sort of like mental gymnastics. You're doing more leg work to omit Corypheus than to consider it true. You keep using words like 'likely', 'reasonable consensus', my favorite being 'aspects' of support for your version of what is acceptable. Either you are running for some kind of political office or have made some sort of personal consensus of your own and reached a level of talking points memo that is burning up the note pad.

 

1) Don't suggest someone has a lack of reading comprehension because they make a suggestion you don't like.

 

2) Ignoring facts from one side to further the side you favor is a bias.

 

3) Yes. In the adult world, an omission of the whole truth is a lie, especially in a court of law.  

 

Establishing that Corypheus existed in the real world via public record or familiar accord is proof. The wardens held Cory for years because of what he is. Their accord, Cory's accord and all of the investigating the entire game puts into finding out who he is justifies his claims too. We have no reason to believe that his account is false. Cory did not lie about anything. Except aggrandizing what he could do! The entire game we say, "so what! Cory, you are the big bad and the big bad is always wrong."

 

You're defeating your own argument with this line; Whatever the player decides is the correct answer, and how passionately the character believes in it, is up to the player. The game certainly doesn't provide a clear answer. 

 

You are entitled to your own deduction. As am I. I say that excluding Cory is one of clear bias. You don't have to agree. 

 

As for black city proof-somehow Cory got tainted real good. Somehow Cory gained the power to compete alongside the Archdemon in a body jumping contest. Somehow corroboration is left open for Cory even though he has nothing to gain by lying about it. If anything it cost him his God, Dumat, by proving the deity false or dead. Losing his God loses his authority and devalues him in his own society. Cory gains nothing from the truth here. If anything it drives him to become what he sought. 

 

But let's say an apostate elf claims divinity by seeking other's power while lying the entire game and we suddenly must believe him. Somewhere there is a bias. The guy painting his own truths everywhere is his own citation. No bias there. Nope. But if we listen to the history of Fen'Heral, Dread Wolf; we know what history says of him. He makes Hissrad seem like a metaphor with a question mark. Is a lie by any other name; still a lie? 

 

Now I have gotten over myself.