77 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

W

 

1) Finding a way around the discharge limitation for ships (typically through reverse-engineering reaper technology) and putting a crew in stasis.  THe problems here are questions of how long it would take the galaxy to make such leaps in technology, even with pieces of it to examine, and the question of, if the Reapers already have this level of tech, why haven't they used it themselves?

 

 

That one actually wouldn't require reverse engineering Reaper technology. The Council races already possess it, and use it on space stations. 

 

We're never told why exactly this technology was never ported to ships (it only gets the briefest mention as it is...a single sentence at most), but theories kicked about were that it might not be cost effective for ships, or that the facilities are too large, or would need to be separate from the ship itself and towed. Neither would really be an issue for project on which the fate of entire species may depend. 

 

Since drive discharge tech for deep space already exists and is possessed by the Council species, and since there isn't a lot of information on it, the writers have plenty of options on how they could introduce it to the colonists' ship without retconning previous lore.

 

Static discharge isn't the obstacle some of those opposed to the Andromeda setting have been making it out to be.

 

The bigger issue is refueling. The Reapers have a means of travelling vast distances without needing to refuel, but the Council species do not. That is the one area where the writers would either need to have the colonists develop/reverse engineer new technology, or find some other means of travel, like a wormhole or connecting mass effect relay.

[Ahriman]

That one actually wouldn't require reverse engineering Reaper technology. The Council races already possess it, and use it on space stations. 

 

We're never told why exactly this technology was never ported to ships (it only gets the briefest mention as it is...a single sentence at most), but theories kicked about were that it might not be cost effective for ships, or that the facilities are too large, or would need to be separate from the ship itself and towed. Neither would really be an issue for project on which the fate of entire species may depend.

Probably because it still discharges, the actual mechanism wasn't presented, so stations could use discharge drone or something like this.

[Iakus]

Yeah but how did the Leviathans go to Andromeda in the first place?

 

Like I said, through some sort of FTL that does not use mass effect technology.  They, unlike any other race for the last billion years or so, are not dependent on mass effect fields and such.  They haven't been blinded to other paths because the Reapers never controlled their development.  If there is any race that could manage the trip, it would be them.

I like this idea a lot more than the super special secret relay - the relays are not really iconic for me, so I don't have a problem doing away with them.  

 

For me a bit of handwaving is fine if it makes a good story.  My ideal 'get to Andromeda' is the Arc idea (have them leave sometime between Arrival DLC and the start of ME3), then crucible caused wormhole (makes story sense and doesn't totally ignore the lead up to the ME3 endings), then down the list relay.  

The thing is, Bioware is not in the habit of doing "a little" handwaving.  They do a LOT of handwaving.  I'm trying to come up with something that requires as little as possible, using known lore.

[Iakus]

I don't believe a wormhole would be a contrivance at all if done right. Wormholes are theoretically possible but require massive amounts of energy. It just so happens that at the end of the reaper war we have

 

a ) A one time device that we don't really understand but produces massive amounts of energy is used

b ) A bunch of ships populated by various species in proximity to that device

 

Once the crucible is operated, the writers could easily say it created a massive amount of energy, tore a wormhole open in the Sol system for a fraction of a second, it pulled in a bunch of ships, collapsed, and left them stranded in Andromeda. In the final cinematic, it even looked like Joker was trying to out run a tear in space.

I hate Wormhole Theory less than a do others.  But I still find much of it to be contrived.  

 

The problem with using the Crucible opening one in the Sol system is twofold.  First, by the time the Crucible goes off, there are no ships left in the Sol system other than Reapers.  Sword and Shield fleets have all FTL-ed out already.  THe other is, the endings.  WIth SYnthesis, you're sending people who have been Green Peacelovedoped to Andomeda.  Then there's the possibility of Refuse and the Crucible never went off at all.

 

If the answer really is "wormholes" I'd prefer it to be the result of research and experimentation that had been going on for years, and actually predates the Reaper War altogether.  THere was actually a fan-made Cerberus Daily News story about a volus scientist experimenting with eezos and black holes to create a wormhole to other galaxies that I found really interesting.  Sadly, it was not a "real" news story.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Fourth alternative: Shrug, don't be concerned with what happens in a sequel that I was completely indifferent about until I knew that it existed, and definitely don't read giant walls of text about what should be done with the story in a sequel about which I was completely indifferent until I knew it existed.

 

[Indomito]

I like it. It might work.

[MrFob]

Hmmmm, I feel like I might have missed or misunderstood something in your opening post iakus.

So you are saying that the Leviathans built a pair of "super relays", sent one of them to the Andromeda galaxy one billion years ago and hid the other one somewhere in the milky way.

Then, before the ME3 ending, some of our current cycle find the local relay and use it to travel to Andromeda to escape the reapers.

 

BUT: Assuming that the Leviathan DLC is canon, Shepard found the Leviathans in ME3. Apparently, teams of people even kinda work with them after the DLC. So, are these different Leviathans? Or did they tell us about the relay in the first place? Or did we find it ourselves and use it without their knowladge? Or did we find it first, then found the Leviathans but they are ok with us using it?

Given how the Leviathans act during our brief encounter, I find none of these options very likely (and youd' think if they told us about the relay, Shepard would be aware of it, since he is the one who had the personal encounter).

[Malanek]

I hate Wormhole Theory less than a do others.  But I still find much of it to be contrived.  

 

The problem with using the Crucible opening one in the Sol system is twofold.  First, by the time the Crucible goes off, there are no ships left in the Sol system other than Reapers.  Sword and Shield fleets have all FTL-ed out already.  THe other is, the endings.  WIth SYnthesis, you're sending people who have been Green Peacelovedoped to Andomeda.  Then there's the possibility of Refuse and the Crucible never went off at all.

 

If the answer really is "wormholes" I'd prefer it to be the result of research and experimentation that had been going on for years, and actually predates the Reaper War altogether.  THere was actually a fan-made Cerberus Daily News story about a volus scientist experimenting with eezos and black holes to create a wormhole to other galaxies that I found really interesting.  Sadly, it was not a "real" news story.

No, they have not disengaged. In all endings except refuse Hackket says, "All fleets, the crucible is armed. Head for the rendezvous point" after Shepard has operated the crucible. There are still all the ships in the Sol System in the process of getting out of there. It is not a stretch at all to say most ships make it, some are caught in a wormhole.

 

I am not suggesting the wormhole is the effect of destroy, control, or synthesis, I am suggesting it is a by product of the massive energy being released in all 3 cases. I don't feel it is a stretch at all to say the wormhole swallowed them before the main effects of the crucible effected them.

 

Yes, it does rule out refuse, which I guess is a pity since it is imo the most paragon of the possible ending choices. I'm sure some people will complain, but I doubt too many people will be overly worried.

 

Having research into wormholes, and being able to use that in a controlled manner to cross to other galaxies is a massive mistake imo. It creates a technological limit that is beyond what the writers will be capable of handling. Why can't they simply pop between galaxies whenever they want? I'm convinced that it is much better if they get to Andromeda as an uncontrollable accident.

[Calinstel]

In ME lore, there is a mention of 'Goose Chase' tests.  These were tests/studies on FTL drives that did not use the Mass Effect means of travel.

Who is to say those studies were actually ended when the Relay was discovered?

Who is to say those studies did not result, in later years, of a ship actually disappearing from known space?

 

Who knows, maybe the Human scientists continued their studies of FTL drives.  After the Relays, other races could have been brought aboard for different views and finally, instead of the test ship failing or being destroyed in the test, it simply vanished.

 

Who knew it would take only 100 joules to get to FTL and not the 10,000 they fed the drive? 

 

What ifs, fun to think about but BW will just wave a wand and put the ship there.

[Iakus]

Hmmmm, I feel like I might have missed or misunderstood something in your opening post iakus.

So you are saying that the Leviathans built a pair of "super relays", sent one of them to the Andromeda galaxy one billion years ago and hid the other one somewhere in the milky way.

Then, before the ME3 ending, some of our current cycle find the local relay and use it to travel to Andromeda to escape the reapers.

 

BUT: Assuming that the Leviathan DLC is canon, Shepard found the Leviathans in ME3. Apparently, teams of people even kinda work with them after the DLC. So, are these different Leviathans? Or did they tell us about the relay in the first place? Or did we find it ourselves and use it without their knowladge? Or did we find it first, then found the Leviathans but they are ok with us using it?

Given how the Leviathans act during our brief encounter, I find none of these options very likely (and youd' think if they told us about the relay, Shepard would be aware of it, since he is the one who had the personal encounter).

Whether they are "super relays" or not is a matter of perspective, I suppose.  We don't know what the upper limits of the range of a primary relay are.  But yes at some point People from our cycle find and use the relay.  Perhaps during the war.  Maybe before the war.  Heck maybe after the war, though SYnthesis kinda messes with that one.

 

My thought is there are only a few Leviathans left, who operate more or less on their own (too arrogant to cooperate on a large scale)  who use the relay to travel back and forth, intergalactic parasites more than an apex species.  Shepard may have recruited a few.  But there could be others running their own little fiefdoms in both galaxies.

 

 My guess is we'd find this on our own.  Can't see the Leviathans sharing what few toys they have left.  Heck I could see angry Leviathans being an antagonist in MEA:  "How DARE you use our relay without our permission! Get back to the Milky Way and start mining us tribute!"

[Iakus]

No, they have not disengaged. In all endings except refuse Hackket says, "All fleets, the crucible is armed. Head for the rendezvous point" after Shepard has operated the crucible. There are still all the ships in the Sol System in the process of getting out of there. It is not a stretch at all to say most ships make it, some are caught in a wormhole.

 

I am not suggesting the wormhole is the effect of destroy, control, or synthesis, I am suggesting it is a by product of the massive energy being released in all 3 cases. I don't feel it is a stretch at all to say the wormhole swallowed them before the main effects of the crucible effected them.

 

Yes, it does rule out refuse, which I guess is a pity since it is imo the most paragon of the possible ending choices. I'm sure some people will complain, but I doubt too many people will be overly worried.

 

Having research into wormholes, and being able to use that in a controlled manner to cross to other galaxies is a massive mistake imo. It creates a technological limit that is beyond what the writers will be capable of handling. Why can't they simply pop between galaxies whenever they want? I'm convinced that it is much better if they get to Andromeda as an uncontrollable accident.

Yes, the Crucible is armed, but it has not fired.  The energy hasn't been released yet.By the time Shepard does release the energy, the ships have all left.

 

In addition, there is a problem that we know there will be krogan in MEA.  And it is possible to have zero krogan assets in retaking earth.

 

In ME lore, there is a mention of 'Goose Chase' tests.  These were tests/studies on FTL drives that did not use the Mass Effect means of travel.

Who is to say those studies were actually ended when the Relay was discovered?

Who is to say those studies did not result, in later years, of a ship actually disappearing from known space?

 

Who knows, maybe the Human scientists continued their studies of FTL drives.  After the Relays, other races could have been brought aboard for different views and finally, instead of the test ship failing or being destroyed in the test, it simply vanished.

 

Who knew it would take only 100 joules to get to FTL and not the 10,000 they fed the drive? 

 

What ifs, fun to think about but BW will just wave a wand and put the ship there.

Possible.  But I think the reason they were called "Goose Chase" tests is because they turned out to be "wild goose chases" Futile research that led nowhere.  Like the other races, it appears humanity became totally dependent on mass effect technology once it was "discovered"

 

I would have liked to see the races come together to find a new method of space travel postwar.  Unfortunately, EC makes it look like they will simply get the relay network up and running again and life will go on as before.

[Iakus]

Fourth alternative: Shrug, don't be concerned with what happens in a sequel that I was completely indifferent about until I knew that it existed, and definitely don't read giant walls of text about what should be done with the story in a sequel about which I was completely indifferent until I knew it existed.

 

 

Sera was never quite the quietest girl
Her attacks are loud and they're joyful.
But she knew the ways of nobler men,
And she knew how to enrage them.

 

She would always like to say,
"Why change the past,
When you can own this day?"
Today she will fight,
To keep her way.
She's a rogue and a thief,
And she'll tempt your fate.

 

[Calinstel]

Possible.  But I think the reason they were called "Goose Chase" tests is because they turned out to be "wild goose chases" Futile research that led nowhere.  Like the other races, it appears humanity became totally dependent on mass effect technology once it was "discovered"

 

I would have liked to see the races come together to find a new method of space travel postwar.  Unfortunately, EC makes it look like they will simply get the relay network up and running again and life will go on as before.

Very true on them ending the tests, that we know of.

After ME1 and the Vigil information.  Knowing that 'if' the reapers were real, then a different means of FTL would be needed, they might have reinstituted those very tests.

As with everyone, we are all just guessing about how humans reached Andromeda.  As well as, how they did it without the reapers being there already if using old tech or a here-to-fore unknown relay.

 

Anyway, just me goofing around. 

Have fun all.

[camphor]

 

 

1) Finding a way around the discharge limitation for ships (typically through reverse-engineering reaper technology) and putting a crew in stasis.  THe problems here are questions of how long it would take the galaxy to make such leaps in technology, even with pieces of it to examine, and the question of, if the Reapers already have this level of tech, why haven't they used it themselves?

 

 

they do thats literal cannon reapers don't have to discharge its not even just in the codex its mentioned in game with voice over, and they do use it like anytime they travel its one of the major advantages reapers had on us. Once you can figure out how somethings put together reverse engineering can take as little as days maximum of years unless there is something unidentifiable, and considering this game is set so far in the future that none of our companions are around (aka asari and krogan can live past 1000) 1000 years of technological development is a lot look back to 1000 A.D and see were technology was.

 

Also would like to state that forcing a motivation on a god like level of intelligence is arrogant saying the reapers having the capability of doing something is not saying they made the choice to do so. i have the ability for instance to drive to the grand canyon i never did and never will, it doesn't mean i lack the capability

[LinksOcarina]

You basically came up with details to an idea I had when the leak was first posted, and have been arguing as a counter-argument against the whole "we are there for a long journey" type of deal through cryo sleep and leaving during Mass Effect or something of that nature, which I don't think will happen still.

 

Well done I guess? 

[AlanC9]

Fourth alternative: Shrug, don't be concerned with what happens in a sequel that I was completely indifferent about until I knew that it existed, and definitely don't read giant walls of text about what should be done with the story in a sequel about which I was completely indifferent until I knew it existed.
 

I totally get indifference, but I don't get how you end up here if that's the case.

[Iakus]

they do thats literal cannon reapers don't have to discharge its not even just in the codex its mentioned in game with voice over, and they do use it like anytime they travel its one of the major advantages reapers had on us. Once you can figure out how somethings put together reverse engineering can take as little as days maximum of years unless there is something unidentifiable, and considering this game is set so far in the future that none of our companions are around (aka asari and krogan can live past 1000) 1000 years of technological development is a lot look back to 1000 A.D and see were technology was.

 

Also would like to state that forcing a motivation on a god like level of intelligence is arrogant saying the reapers having the capability of doing something is not saying they made the choice to do so. i have the ability for instance to drive to the grand canyon i never did and never will, it doesn't mean i lack the capability

The Reapers don't appear to need to discharge their cores.  At least, not for 3 or four years.  That's canon.  But can they go for centuries?  Everything has limits

 

And I have pointed out several times that their absolutist logic would send them to Andromeda.  Their intelligence is not as "godlike" as Bioware would have us believe after ME3.

 

You basically came up with details to an idea I had when the leak was first posted, and have been arguing as a counter-argument against the whole "we are there for a long journey" type of deal through cryo sleep and leaving during Mass Effect or something of that nature, which I don't think will happen still.

 

Well done I guess? 

I'm sorry, but I don't find you important enough to read every single post you make.  So, good thinking I suppose?

[LinksOcarina]

 

 

I'm sorry, but I don't find you important enough to read every single post you make.  So, good thinking I suppose?

 

Funny, some were in direct response to you.

 

I guess it's all right, you are always full of yourself most of the time anyway. Touche? 

[AlanC9]

The Reapers don't appear to need to discharge their cores.  At least, not for 3 or four years.  That's canon.  But can they go for centuries?  Everything has limits

Since nothing's been established, the limits are whatever Bio needs them to be.

[Iakus]

Since nothing's been established, the limits are whatever Bio needs them to be.

Yes, but I'm trying to come up with a plausible reason why we can get to Andromeda and the Reapers not.  They don't go to Andromeda "because Bioware doesn't want them to" is a rather weak excuse.  Especially given the extremes the Reapers have been shown to go to in pursuit of their agenda.

[Iakus]

Funny, some were in direct response to you.

 

I guess it's all right, you are always full of yourself most of the time anyway. Touche? 

Yeah I'm done talking to you unless you have something constructive to add

[Lumix19]

I like the idea of Leviathans returning, they have so much untapped potential.

[Lady Artifice]

I've never thought that the wormhole theory was particularly contrived, at least not relative to the other fantastical aspects of the Mass Effect lore. It's a big galaxy, perhaps the existence of a wormhole has always been known, but there was never enough incentive to send someone into it before the Reaper war. 

 

I guess I also don't really understand the passionate insistence that we have to get to Adromeda by tech that we're already aware of in universe. Fighting for galactic survival sounds like great incentive for people to innovate, and to take more risks in order to do so. I think there are any number of ways they could explain this move. The outrage over it before we know that explanation has completely baffled me since the game was first announced. 

[Iakus]

I've never thought that the wormhole theory was particularly contrived, at least not relative to the other fantastical aspects of the Mass Effect lore. It's a big galaxy, perhaps the existence of a wormhole has always been known, but there was never enough incentive to send someone into it before the Reaper war. 

 

I guess I also don't really understand the passionate insistence that we have to get to Adromeda by tech that we're already aware of in universe. Fighting for galactic survival sounds like great incentive for people to innovate, and to take more risks in order to do so. I think there are any number of ways they could explain this move. The outrage over it before we know that explanation has completely baffled me since the game was first announced. 

 

I think wormholes could be used in a noncontrived way.  I just fear that it would be used in too fantastical a way.  SImply a deus ex machina to explain away how we got there, rather than really be integrated into the story or setting.  Like how the Lazarus Project was simply a vehicle to explain why Shepard was ressurected, which cheapened "the greatest discovery in medical science".

 

Survival is a great motivator, true.  But the thing is the distance between galaxies is, well, enormous.  Innovation only takes you so far.  The leap in technology simply strikes me as too great.  Thus I think another path should be taken.

 

And like I said, mass relays are iconic to the series.  The relay network holds the explored galaxy together.  Recall the absolute outrage at the thought that the relays were destroyed?  Even without the explosions?  "The galaxy will be a galactic wasteland!"  "Fleets will be stranded!"  "Tali will starve!"  

 

Why couldn't one also be a bridge to the next story in the setting?

[camphor]

The Reapers don't appear to need to discharge their cores.  At least, not for 3 or four years.  That's canon.  But can they go for centuries?  Everything has limits

 

And I have pointed out several times that their absolutist logic would send them to Andromeda.  Their intelligence is not as "godlike" as Bioware would have us believe after ME3.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't find you important enough to read every single post you make.  So, good thinking I suppose?

you realize whatever bioware wants us to believe is cannon correct, i mean that's the difference between cannon and fan theory. your disagreement is literally making up reasons why it wont work, when it works perfectly according to current facts. Im not even saying that its the case i personally foresee a one way wormhole scenario based on concept art but really your reasoning for why it cant work is really just stating you don't like the direction.

 

if its arguable its not a fact the idea that you can guess the unwritten unprovable actions of a fictional being as fact is insane