170 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

How would you want that? A blanket -20% to all health, damage, and shields for the protag?

Limited weapon skills. Accuracy penalties.

The question shouldn't be how to penalize the non-combat character, but how to quantify the combat prowess of the soldier. The game is filled with non-combatants. What makes a soldier better at combat than them? Once we know that, we just don't give those characteristics to the non-combat protagonist.

What type of gameplay are you looking for that doesn't involve combat, and if you want a non combat game are you sure that Mass Effect, which has always been a shooter/RPG hybrid, is the right game for you when you consider that "shooter" is inextricably linked to "combat?"

Combat has always been the least interesting part of Mass Effect. Also, all 3 ME games gave us options to avoid shooter combat (aiming while paused, activated abilities, control of squadmates outside real time). BioWare has a track record of supporting the player's ability to avoid shooter combat in the ME series.

RPG gameplay consists of in-character decision-making. A non-combat character would still be doing that, and then obstacles could be overcome using non-combat skills. Much as in a fantasy game a Rogue will use stealth and traps to defeat enemies, or how tech skills in KotOR could lay mines or reprogram turrets and droids or overload power conduits.

Shooting things doesn't need to be the only way to defeat enemies.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think open world would be the more obvious alternative, but I don't think that BioWare would do very well to do this sort of thing, because it plays to none of their real strengths.

World building, lore, and writing compelling characters? How do you figure?

Until recently, I'd also say that combat was a BioWare strength, but their move toward action content has reduced that advantage.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Just as a backstory, or do you mean you'd rather the combat gameplay aspects were reduced or cut?

I'd like there to be other ways to solve problems.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In a shooter game? I like you Sylvius, but I find your madness often comes between us.

In an actual shooter game (without ME's revolutionary pause-to-aim mechanic), all of my characters lack combat prowess.

[Chealec]

...

What makes a soldier better at combat than them? Once we know that, we just don't give those characteristics to the non-combat protagonist.

...

 

Discipline.

 

I'm not sure how you'd take that away from a non-combat protagonist though - go to a cutscene where they dive under a table and cower whenever shots start flying?

[Shechinah]

Well, Liara was an archaologist with what seemed to be minimal knowledge in combat and she seemed to  be able to adapt to combative situations even without the use of her biotic so I would not consider it too odd for a protagonist who similarly has minimal knowledge when it comes to combat but learns along the way.

 

What combative skills we may have could be explained by us having to undergo a small training program to ensure we knew enough to defend ourselves against minor and unexpected threats.

 

I'd dig being the source of exposition for once and I do not believe it would leave new players hanging since they'd still recieve the exposition except it would be from their character explaining it to someone else.

[Black Jimmy]

I'm kinda hoping that other than being human, they're otherwise able to be moulded as we please.

I also hope backgrounds range from: Military, Civilian, Governemnt

 

Or something like that. I dunno.

[Samahl na Revas]

The new protag and all the scientist are going to learn to use this new technology in 2 seconds (hyperbole of course). Therefore, auto-dialogue guaranteed in some cases. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Discipline.

I'm not sure how you'd take that away from a non-combat protagonist though - go to a cutscene where they dive under a table and cower whenever shots start flying?

I'd love to see a morale mechanic.

I also want a return to stat-based accuracy, like ME1.

[LinksOcarina]

I'd love to see a morale mechanic.

I also want a return to stat-based accuracy, like ME1.

 

Stat-based accuracy annoyed me to no end in Mass Effect 1, it is one of the things I am glad was removed honestly. 

[mickey111]

I'd love to see a morale mechanic.

I also want a return to stat-based accuracy, like ME1.

 

the stat based accuracy was random and bad. Deus Ex: HRs gun would sway which was better because you can see where all your bullets would go and compensate for low accuracy ratings to an extent by getting good. You weren't able to spray bullets with laser precision, but with a bit of effort you can control where one or two bullets at a time will hit.

[KaiserShep]

In an actual shooter game (without ME's revolutionary pause-to-aim mechanic), all of my characters lack combat prowess.

But that's not really true though. No matter the style you play, Shepard is always a killing machine.

[Zekka]

Do you know what I really wanna be? Don't guess I'll tell you: a scientist. Obviously a scientist that shoots things skillfully but primarily a scientist.

A Gordon Freeman

[Sylvius the Mad]

the stat based accuracy was random and bad. Deus Ex: HRs gun would sway which was better because you can see where all your bullets would go and compensate for low accuracy ratings to an extent by getting good. You weren't able to spray bullets with laser precision, but with a bit of effort you can control where one or two bullets at a time will hit.

I don't want the player to be able to overcome his character's deficiencies, though.

Poor aiming should be random. Random is a good feature in RPGs.

[Sylvius the Mad]

But that's not really true though. No matter the style you play, Shepard is always a killing machine.

Because the mechanics make him so.

Imagine if they didn't.

[Golden_Persona]

I'm just glad humans are the only playable race. Inquisition basically proved the argument that multiple playable races means more generic playable characters. It's either a testament to how resources are limited, or that Bioware itself just can't do it right. I think, and have proved with evidence along with many others, that it just can't be done right in the age of voiced-protagonists. Perhaps that's one of the best arguments against voiced-protagonists. Fallout 4 fans are still losing their minds over it.

 

Due to this the ME:A protagonist should easily be a much deeper character than a multi-race character like the Inquisitor ever could, and thus using Inquisition as a basis for how you think ME:A is going to do things doesn't work imo. Compare Hawke to the Inquisitor. Hawke always felt like her own person who was grounded in the world. She had a detailed history before the blight and builds up her legend throughout the game, and due to her always being human it not only allowed for deeper race conflicts that is a cornerstone of Dragon Age as a whole, but also allowed Bioware to make Hawke's dialogue more descriptive, engaging, and more personal to the events going on in the world.

 

The Inquisitor can be any race, so their responses have to be as generic as possible to accommodate for all of them, lest Bioware spend resources they just didn't have writing four different scripts. The Inquisitor also had to be able to mold into every conflict evenly, never allowing the conflicts to become truly personal and therefore interesting. The Inquisitor's background was also forced to be as generic as possible. A few extra dialogue choices dependent on race hardly made up for it.

 

I seriously hope Bioware lives up to their "a more personal story" statement. So far so a good. A smaller crew, strangely enough, also helps a bit.

[RoboticWater]

I don't want the player to be able to overcome his character's deficiencies, though.

Poor aiming should be random. Random is a good feature in RPGs.

And a bad feature in shooters.

[mickey111]

And a bad feature in shooters.

 

the hybrid system of manual + stat based aim works well in shooters. It's only the randomness of the pure dice roll based stats that are bad for shooters, but if your gun sways less with more aiming skill invested it's okay on the condition that your sights are a reflection of where your gun is pointed.

[Chealec]

I'd love to see a morale mechanic.

I also want a return to stat-based accuracy, like ME1.

 

Whereas I would hate that so much in a TPS ... I hated having control wrenched away in ME1 when hit by a Singularity and I hate it in ME3:MP when hit by an Atlas/Geth Prime stagger missile. Having my character "brick it" when their morale breaks would just be a frustrating and pointless reload point.

 

Weirdly I don't remember anything about the accuracy in ME1 and I only played it through again a couple of months back... but then I was playing as a Sentinel which meant I had no weapons skill as such (just the passive) and was restricted to pistols only. Incidentally I also dislike the weapons > class restrictions in ME1, much prefer the weapons > cooldowns system in ME1. If I want to use a Claymore on an adept....

 

 

I like both of those mechanics in XCOM ... just not sure about them in Mass Effect.

[Shechinah]

Weirdly I don't remember anything about the accuracy in ME1 and I only played it through again a couple of months back... but then I was playing as a Sentinel which meant I had no weapons skill as such (just the passive) and was restricted to pistols only.

 

I believe it shows if you equip and make use of a sniper rifle.
 

[Chealec]

I believe it shows if you equip and make use of a sniper rifle.
 

 

Ah - you can't even equip anything other than pistols playing as a Sentinel in ME1.

[sjsharp2011]

Limited weapon skills. Accuracy penalties.

The question shouldn't be how to penalize the non-combat character, but how to quantify the combat prowess of the soldier. The game is filled with non-combatants. What makes a soldier better at combat than them? Once we know that, we just don't give those characteristics to the non-combat protagonist.
Combat has always been the least interesting part of Mass Effect. Also, all 3 ME games gave us options to avoid shooter combat (aiming while paused, activated abilities, control of squadmates outside real time). BioWare has a track record of supporting the player's ability to avoid shooter combat in the ME series.

RPG gameplay consists of in-character decision-making. A non-combat character would still be doing that, and then obstacles could be overcome using non-combat skills. Much as in a fantasy game a Rogue will use stealth and traps to defeat enemies, or how tech skills in KotOR could lay mines or reprogram turrets and droids or overload power conduits.

Shooting things doesn't need to be the only way to defeat enemies.

yeah that's usually the best way and also how ME1 handles the approach. Generally though if I'm playing as character that is limited for choices I just don't use the weapon anyway in htqat playthrough.

[sjsharp2011]

Ah - you can't even equip anything other than pistols playing as a Sentinel in ME1.

You can use any weapon you like but unless your trained to use them your accuracy suffers for it. Playing as an infiltrator in my latest run so was trained in both snipers and pistols but yeah Sentinels can only use pistols in ME1 but then it's the asme with Adepts and engineers if I'm not mistaken.

[RoboticWater]

the hybrid system of manual + stat based aim works well in shooters. It's only the randomness of the pure dice roll based stats that are bad for shooters, but if your gun sways less with more aiming skill invested it's okay on the condition that your sights are a reflection of where your gun is pointed.

Certainly. As long as the player has the final say on where the bullets land and damage is fixed, then the randomness is just another challenge for the player's skill to overcome (like randomness in AI routines).

 

In practice, as long as the player never thinks "I definitely should have hit that," or feels as if every enemy is a boring bullet sponge then randomness is fine. However, achieving that result with heavily stat-based mechanics is quite difficult.

[Sylvius the Mad]

And a bad feature in shooters.

Then perhaps the two shouldn't mix.