188 ответов в этой теме

[Whitering]

You still haven't answered my original question: Why wasn't it enough to stop Wrex? Why was it necessary to shoot him several times like a maniac until he died? Why is it the right way to "make the hard decision"? Because Kaidan's reaction is not wimpy. Kaidan's reaction is perfectly appropriate towards somebody who displays this kind of behaviour.

Oh, sorry, I have played ME1 maybe twelve or thirteen times, this is the first time I have shot Wrex and only the second time he's died (once I let Ashley shoot him). I was just trying something different. Also, I wanted a playthrough where the Krogan aren't healed. I know Wrex is fan favourite, and I find him funny as well, but he's done a lot of bad stuff in his past, and Eve was the only nice Krogan we got to know. I don't want to doom the galaxy to a war with the Krogan a hundred years after the war with the Reapers. I don't know if it would happen, you go a long ways towards healing their opinions towards the rest of the galaxy, but remember the first Krogan war was a war of aggression, meaning they hadn't yet learned to hate anyone else, except the Rachni. There is no great reason to believe they won't backslide after ME3 if they are cured and their population blows up again, Wrex and Eve won't live forever and Wrex was never even all rah rah Peace! anyway. MEHEM changes the ending so that the relays don't blow up which makes aggression a real concern.

 

This is probably my last playthrough for quite a while, there is a bit of a break until several important things happen, so yep, I wanted this one perfect (in my mind), and that means a dead Wrex, no cure, and a soldier Spectre instead of a whiny one.

 

I get that people will see that moment with Kaidan differently than me, but if they haven't experienced it (you only get it by shooting Wrex I think), then they don't know what I am talking about, because up until I saw that I'd always chosen Kaidan over Ashley.

[Monica21]

Oh, sorry, I have played ME1 maybe twelve or thirteen times, this is the first time I have shot Wrex and only the second time he's died (once I let Ashley shoot him). I was just trying something different. Also, I wanted a playthrough where the Krogan aren't healed. I know Wrex is fan favourite, and I find him funny as well, but he's done a lot of bad stuff in his past, and Eve was the only nice Krogan we got to know. I don't want to doom the galaxy to a war with the Krogan a hundred years after the war with the Reapers. I don't know if it would happen, you go a long ways towards healing their opinions towards the rest of the galaxy, but remember the first Krogan war was a war of aggression, meaning they hadn't yet learned to hate anyone else, except the Rachni. There is no great reason to believe they won't backslide after ME3 if they are cured and their population blows up again, Wrex and Eve won't live forever and Wrex was never even all rah rah Peace! anyway. MEHEM changes the ending so that the relays don't blow up which makes aggression a real concern.

 

This is probably my last playthrough for quite a while, there is a bit of a break until several important things happen, so yep, I wanted this one perfect (in my mind), and that means a dead Wrex, no cure, and a soldier Spectre instead of a whiny one.

 

I get that people will see that moment with Kaidan differently than me, but if they haven't experienced it (you only get it by shooting Wrex I think), then they don't know what I am talking about, because up until I saw that I'd always chosen Kaidan over Ashley.

 

So this is "whiny" Kaidan: https://youtu.be/Bh2033jHBVc?t=4m10s

 

[Vanilka]

Ah, sorry, I'm not calling you out on your in-game decisions, of course. If it sounds like that, then I owe you an apology. The options are there to be explored and enjoyed, very possibly during multiple playthroughs. I respect what you're doing with your game and while I may disagree with you in some things (like the genophage, etc.), that doesn't mean I'm right or that I have any right to push my opinions on you. And, well, we've already settled that we have different opinions on what it takes to be a good Spectre. That's fine by me, too.

 

I guess it just puzzles me why Kaidan's reaction should make him look wimpy and should mean he would ultimately fail the whole mission (or be a worse Spectre, for that matter) when all he did was object to/ask about killing Wrex. He doesn't even call Ashley out on attacking him or protecting Shepard or anything like that. As I said, and it's my opinion, when somebody takes a person out by shooting them not once, but four times, three of those shots happen when Wrex is obviously lying on the ground and unable to defend himself... well, then being like WTF is a fairly reasonable reaction. I just don't know why that suddenly makes Kaidan into a total loser and Ashley somehow better than him. Well, if Spectres were real, let's just say I'd feel a hell lot safer if they were like Kaidan and not like Ashley or Shepard during that particular exchange. You never know when they decide it's necessary to make the hard decision to shoot you (e.g. for disagreeing with them)... or through you.

 

EDIT: That's just to explain my standpoint. Guess it would be good to stop running in circles because we both obviously have different opinions on that, as well. Well, at least I don't think I'll get it.

 

Also, how is Kaidan "whiny"? Can somebody, please, finally explain this one to me? I haven't heard a solid explanation why people use this word yet.

[Monica21]

The thing is that there are valid RP reasons for whatever is decided with Wrex. I can say that he's irrational and clearly a liability. I mean, he did pull his gun on me. I can also think that this is a guy I want to talk down, because we've been through a lot, he's an ally, and you never know when you'll need a Krogan on your side.

The RP reasons don't matter to me. It's transferring the player's decision to how a squad mate will act in the future that confounds me. You have no idea that either Kaidan or Ashley will be potential Spectre candidates, so applying some kind of weird logic about who would be a better one based on a decision your Shepard makes doesn't make any kind of sense.

[GoldenGail3]

*Gasps at the very possiblity of leaving Kaidan on Virimin*. Why did you do such a thing? He's like my Alistair in ME, I can't bear to loss my Alistiar.

[Whitering]

The thing is that there are valid RP reasons for whatever is decided with Wrex. I can say that he's irrational and clearly a liability. I mean, he did pull his gun on me. I can also think that this is a guy I want to talk down, because we've been through a lot, he's an ally, and you never know when you'll need a Krogan on your side.

The RP reasons don't matter to me. It's transferring the player's decision to how a squad mate will act in the future that confounds me. You have no idea that either Kaidan or Ashley will be potential Spectre candidates, so applying some kind of weird logic about who would be a better one based on a decision your Shepard makes doesn't make any kind of sense.

It's not about being a Spectre, I think Ashley is the better soldier (classes not withstanding), I am kind of surprised Kaidan didn't end up teaching at Grissom with Jack, that would have been funny, Ashley though is all about this war. Also, he's totally questioning a superior officer in public. At least Ashley only does that on the ship.

 

Ya, like I said, I've chosen him every other time and it sounds like 95% of everybody else did, maybe that's why they didn't bother writing Ashley for ME2 or 3. I am assuming it's true she doesn't do much after joining your crew, as opposed to Kaidan. If they have all the same lines, that's probably why.

 

Edit, also Vanilka, heh, I am a cranky old man like Admiral Hackett, not a sensitive whiner like Kaidan haha.

[Monica21]

It's not about being a Spectre, I think Ashley is the better soldier (classes not withstanding), I am kind of surprised Kaidan didn't end up teaching at Grissom with Jack, that would have been funny, Ashley though is all about this war. Also, he's totally questioning a superior officer in public. At least Ashley only does that on the ship.

 

Well, you're the one who said it was about being a Spectre. That was your reason for starting this thread. "Ashley would make a better Spectre because she won't hesitate at making the hard decisions." And he does not question you in public. He says, "I knew he was angry, but I didn't think he'd lose his life over it." He still puts the blame on Wrex.

[Vanilka]

You still haven't answered why he's, according to you, a "whiner". I always see people throwing this word around when they dislike a male character because it's the easiest way to mock them but they are unable to ever explain where this notion comes from. When does Kaidan ever complain and when does he ever complain without a good reason?

 

I have nothing against picking Ashley over Kaidan on Virmire. I just don't understand that people always have to put the one they leave behind down. Do you need to invent reasons why they deserve to die so that you can feel better or something? I don't get it.

 

Also, Ashley is, according to you, a better soldier for shooting Wrex, but you completely ignore the fact she allowed Wrex to point a gun at Shepard and took her sweet time to do anything about it, too.

 

Well, I guess that's where we are different. I hate when people kiss my ass and don't have enough backbone to give me their opinion.

[Whitering]

Well, you're the one who said it was about being a Spectre. That was your reason for starting this thread. "Ashley would make a better Spectre because she won't hesitate at making the hard decisions." And he does not question you in public. He says, "I knew he was angry, but I didn't think he'd lose his life over it." He still puts the blame on Wrex.

It is on this playthrough, but I have reflected on it more and more since I saw that interaction with Kaidan (which I never saw before since I always saved Wrex), it really weakened him in my opinion. That was a couple of days ago before we began discussing it. Yep, now I just think she's the all around better soldier.

 

Also, I never actually brought him on any missions, I find the strongest group to be Wrex/Tali, or Liara/Tali. I started letting Wrex come on all the mercenary type missions, if they were kind of C-secy, I bring Garrus, and if it's Geth/Saren I bring Liara and Tali, because Saren basically got Liara's Mom killed and Tali...well, Geth.

 

Vanilka, have you seen the interaction I am talking about?

 

Like I said, 100% of the time before this I chose Kaidan.

[Vanilka]

Indeed. I have seen multiple versions of what you are talking about. I do my homework.

 

I take Kaidan on missions almost all the time. In ME1, he's so stupidly overpowered that I could sit back and polish my nails during combat... well, if I didn't micromanage my team, that is. Also, he opens all crates for me, hacks all devices, and heals my unit. I don't need the other squadmate when he's around.

 

As I said, I have no problem with you choosing Ashley. I think it's a perfectly good choice. I just think it's silly to draw huge conclusions about something that will happen in three years time based on a small exchange where Kaidan acts like the more reasonable one. And, for the record, I don't think either one of them displays exactly exemplary behaviour with Wrex on Virmire.

 

EDIT: If you never bring him on missions, how do you know he talks back in public? Or did you talk about your recent playthrough only?

[Whitering]

Indeed. I have seen multiple versions of what you are talking about. I do my homework.

 

I take Kaidan on missions almost all the time. In ME1, he's so stupidly overpowered that I could sit back and polish my nails during combat... well, if I didn't micromanage my team, that is. Also, he opens all crates for me, hacks all devices, and heals my unit. I don't need the other squadmate when he's around.

 

As I said, I have no problem with you choosing Ashley. I think it's a perfectly good choice. I just think it's silly to draw huge conclusions about something that will happen in three years time based on a small exchange where Kaidan acts like the more reasonable one. And, for the record, I don't think either one of them displays exactly exemplary behaviour with Wrex on Virmire.

 

EDIT: If you never bring him on missions, how do you know he talks back in public? Or did you talk about your recent playthrough only?

 

He talked back when I killed Wrex, I don't remember generally, I have been using the above noted combo since, maybe my 5th playthrough, because it makes the most sense from an RP reason, to me.

 

I should be clear, he is by far the more thoughtful of the two, and I like him more, but not as a soldier. Also, I play on Insanity, and let's face it, the game is pretty darned easy no matter what level 60 character you roll through it, you don't even need squadmates. If it was possible to do a solo run, I am sure it could easily be done.

[Monica21]

He talked back when I killed Wrex, I don't remember generally, I have been using the above noted combo since, maybe my 5th playthrough, because it makes the most sense from an RP reason, to me.

He does not talk back when you shoot Wrex. I posted a YouTube link with the interaction in a previous post.

[Vanilka]

Fair enough.

 

Hm, I must admit I've never replayed with an imported character. I tried once and it felt awkward to start on a higher level and with advanced equipment. I always play from the level 1. I'm weird like that, I guess.

 

 

He does not talk back when you shoot Wrex. I posted a YouTube link with the interaction in a previous post.

 

https://youtu.be/lHLhvRXhlDE?t=1m10s

 

I wouldn't exactly call it talking back myself, but that's a matter of opinion. But, as far as I'm concerned, I like his reaction because Ashley kinda acts like a psycho.

[Monica21]

You still haven't answered why he's, according to you, a "whiner". I always see people throwing this word around when they dislike a male character because it's the easiest way to mock them but they are unable to ever explain where this notion comes from. When does Kaidan ever complain and when does he ever complain without a good reason?

 

The only reason I've ever heard that people think Kaidan is whiny is because he has headaches that come with the L2 implant. Which I think is odd because he never mentions them, you only hear about them through Dr. Chakwas or in an elevator conversation. He's certainly not like Liara who needs to go lay down every time she probes your mind.

[themikefest]

When encountering Ashley/Kaidan on Horizon, they forget a bout the Collectors and focus on Shepard working with Cerberus. They assume the worst that Shepard betrayed them by helping Cerberus. At that point I wanted to smash them in the face and grab them by the collar and use some very harsh language. I would do the same if I was romancing one of them. What's bad is Shepard doesn't get more of an opportunity to explain what's going on and at the same time have Ashley/Kaidan shut up long enough to hear Shepard out. This is continued on Mars in ME3.

 

Another thing that bothered me is that Hackett gave Shepard's dogtags to Liara. Why? I would've given them to Anderson. There's a good chance he would know if Shepard was in a romanctic relationship with one of them and give the dogtags to Ashley/Kaidan or to Shepard's mother for those who play as a spacer.

 

Imagine if the scene on Horizon had Ashley/Kaidan handing Shepards' dogtags back? It most likely would've turned out better than what was seen in the game. Imagine if that scene happened after Shepard learned his/her body was given to Cerberus by Liara? I have an idea how mad Ashley would be. Not sure about Kaidan.

 

Another thing that bothered me is that both never made any effort to visit Shepard while under house arrest. I wonder if that has to do with ME3 being the best place to start playing a trilogy thing?

[Vanilka]

The only reason I've ever heard that people think Kaidan is whiny is because he has headaches that come with the L2 implant. Which I think is odd because he never mentions them, you only hear about them through Dr. Chakwas or in an elevator conversation. He's certainly not like Liara who needs to go lay down every time she probes your mind.

 

Well, you've got further than I. I've never got any explanation from anybody actually having that kind of opinion. So thanks for yours, at least. But that just makes me wonder how much people pay attention to the damn game or whether "whiny" is just a code name for "a character that dares to have different views of things than I".

[Whitering]

Well, you've got further than I. I've never got any explanation from anybody actually having that kind of opinion. So thanks for yours, at least. But that just makes me wonder how much people pay attention to the damn game or whether "whiny" is just a code name for "a character that dares to have different views of things than I".

 

Oh, I never thought any less of him for any of that, like I said, I always chose him, but just one single interaction lowered my opinion of his soldiery attitude. I never felt like he was whiny about the L2, you actually have to go to Chakwas to get any clarity of the issues, whiny people would have chucked all of that at you themselves.

[themikefest]

I wouldn't call Kaidan whiny even though I did when I first joined BSN. I believe he's worried about using his full potential that would cause harm to innocent people.  I say, cut loose since the reapers aren't holding back

[Whitering]

I wouldn't call Kaidan whiny even though I did when I first joined BSN. I believe he's worried about using his full potential that would cause harm to innocent people.  I say, cut loose since the reapers aren't holding back

Since Miranda drops the ball so hard in the Suicide mission if you choose her to do the Bubble, makes me wonder how Kaidan would do there.

[themikefest]

Since Miranda drops the ball so hard in the Suicide mission if you choose her to do the Bubble, makes me wonder how Kaidan would do there.

That would depend on if his loyalty mission was completed. He might have problems since he's not a pure biotic like Samara or Jack

[Monica21]

Oh, I never thought any less of him for any of that, like I said, I always chose him, but just one single interaction lowered my opinion of his soldiery attitude. I never felt like he was whiny about the L2, you actually have to go to Chakwas to get any clarity of the issues, whiny people would have chucked all of that at you themselves.

What do you consider to be a "soldierly attitude"? Shoot first and ask questions later? And you did call him whiny in an earlier post.

[Whitering]

What do you consider to be a "soldierly attitude"? Shoot first and ask questions later? And you did call him whiny in an earlier post.

Yes, because of that one interaction. It was, in my opinion, whinery. Not shoot first ask questions later, but quick and decisive action, it's not like I took out my sniper rifle and shot Wrex before talking to him. Once Wrex pulled his gun on me, well, Kaidan has no business questioning the outcome in public. Maybe I am overreacting, I saw that interaction for the first time in my 12th or 13th playthrough, on Sunday.

[Vanilka]

I wouldn't call Kaidan whiny even though I did when I first joined BSN. I believe he's worried about using his full potential that would cause harm to innocent people.  I say, cut loose since the reapers aren't holding back

 

He used to be worried about that, as he himself says, that's true. He also says that he dropped the attitude after Eden Prime and, if you romance him in ME1, you can talk to him about his self-control and he says he will try to loosen up a bit. What I see as the biggest problem is that BioWare never acknowledges this in any way and never makes e.g. a cutscene with him that would show him using his biotic abilities. (Unless you romance him and have the Citadel DLC. There he blocks bullets with his barrier and knocks people out with his biotics.) It's one of the reasons the end of the Mars mission in ME3 drives me crazy. An experienced Sentinel like him wouldn't have trouble with the sexbot like that. Heck, Kaidan and Shepard had groups of AIs for breakfast every other morning in ME1. His class gets conveniently forgotten on Horizon, too. He could shield himself and others with biotic barrier, which should be pretty much a reflex to a trained biotic like himself. BioWare either keeps forgetting he has technical and biotic abilities or lazily ignores it during the whole franchise because it's convenient to make just one set of animations.

[Vanilka]

Since Miranda drops the ball so hard in the Suicide mission if you choose her to do the Bubble, makes me wonder how Kaidan would do there.

 

Yeah, I would be interested in that, as well. I have great faith in his biotic abilities but I admit I wouldn't risk it when I have a biotic goddess like Samara around. Miranda is said to be a remarkable biotic and she can't last long enough.

 

What I like to do, just for RP sake, is that I take two biotics with me so that they could switch. Which, of course, doesn't happen in the game, but that's what I would do if I were Shepard and I wouldn't make exceptions if Kaidan were around - I could take him as backup for Samara.

 

(The way the game works, though, it must be kind of morbid and funny to have Miranda fail when Shepard is a biotic her/himself or when you have another biotic in the team.)

[Whitering]

Yeah, I would be interested in that, as well. I have great faith in his biotic abilities but I admit I wouldn't risk it when I have a biotic goddess like Samara around. Miranda is said to be a remarkable biotic and she can't last long enough.

 

What I like to do, just for RP sake, is that I take two biotics with me so that they could switch. Which, of course, doesn't happen in the game, but that's what I would do if I were Shepard and I wouldn't make exceptions if Kaidan were around - I could take him as backup for Samara.

 

(The way the game works, though, it must be kind of morbid and funny to have Miranda fail when Shepard is a biotic her/himself or when you have another biotic in the team.)

Ya, I never understood why if she was failing, Adept Shep didn't just take over and let her fight instead since she's pretty good with a gun.