However, I would not tolerate the mistrust shown on Horizon anyway, every single other companion chooses to trust you, your LI chooses not to. Horizon totally justifies a change in LI in my opinion, and then Mars makes sense but the Hospital only kind of does.
To be fair, your LI thought you'd died, then you show up working for the same organization that murdered Alliance Marines as well as an Admiral and is classed as a terrorist organization. I'd mistrust Shepard too.
No, I agree with you. As I said, I don't like it that they are forced into the same roles, but since it's part of their character development in the game, there's nothing else left for me to do than accept it and make the most of it. It's still part of those characters now. They've already been written.
I must disagree here. Mars and the Citadel Coup do take romance into account. Even if the most visible difference is the change in dialogue and some animations. (FemShep can actually act fairly touchy feely on Mars if Kaidan was her LI and Kaidan doesn't shut up about how much he liked/likes her but he's still trying to wrap his head around what was her relationship with Cerberus. That's all there is to it. He wants to make some sense of it.) I actually feel that they act fairly unprofessional on Mars because they chat about their relationship almost more than about the mission if you go the "paragon" route. (Not that I don't enjoy the drama.)
During the Citadel Coup, you even get additional points for having romanced the VS and staying faithful to them/admitting you've been with somebody else. On the outside, that means they trust you more than if not romanced.
Since I do romance Kaidan, I spent some time thinking about where Horizon puts them. And I came to the conclusion that the VS's mistrust is perfectly understandable. As I have said in my long-ass post before, there's no reason they should trust Shepard. Given the circumstances, Shepard is either a traitor or a clone. Take your pick. (My Shepard had a scar on her face in ME1 that completely disappears and instead has glowing scars in different places in ME2. That wouldn't freak anybody out.) The fact the first thing the VS does is that they hug Shepard when in romance, before it hits them how goddamn surreal this situation is, is freaking dangerous as hell to begin with. Shepard was gone for two years - no messages, no nothing, then shows up with terrorists. They would be stupid to trust them. That just makes me think that my LI uses their brain and not their emotions because, "OMG WE SLEPT TOGETHER TWO YEARS AGO," is, imo, not good enough justification to trust somebody when your dead lover magically returns without letting you know and working with the enemy. Did they act emotional? Sure. But their reaction makes sense and they soon apologise for it.
To me, it's Garrus who acts weird. He has no reaction at all. He's like, "So, you're back, okay, lol." Then he gets freaking shot in the face and fixed by Cerberus so he doesn't really have much choice in the matter. He pretty much owes Shepard and Cerberus one. Tali doesn't follow you until much later, until after Horizon, and she might not follow you unless you track her down and save her ass... yet again.
The VS later at least apologises for their emotional outburst and confesses how they felt about it all, even if it's just a goddamn mail, and ultimately it's Shepard who cannot answer their message and you're not allowed to meet them again until ME3 because the writers wanted to get rid of them for the rest of the game. (I totally expected some Citadel meet-up with them later in ME2.) Then I freaking blow up an entire star system with my Mindoir Shep which makes her look like a real terrorist (and there's no other witness besides Shepard)... yeah, that's not awkward.
So, yeah, if after two years of believing somebody was dead, you'd be able to trust them the second they returned with Cerberus backing them up fully and without a question, then I applaud to you, because I probably wouldn't. And even if my Shepard didn't have a full understanding of it, it's not like you can suddenly turn your feelings off and move on to another person like nothing that happened between you mattered.
And that's not to say that moving on would be wrong. Not at all. That's just how I see it. If I dramatically end a relationship, starting another one would be pretty low on my to-do list.
The hospital scenes actually give a lot of closure to the romanced relationship and send it the right way. It also contributes to the outcome of the Citadel Coup.
Ashley/Kaidan's mistrust on Horrizon I can understand to a certain degree. After that my patience wears very thin. They both ignore the real threat to the colonies and that is the collectors. They assume Cerberus might be working with the collectors. If that was the case, why would Shepard work with Cerberus? Here's a question I like to ask them. Why didn't they along with the rest of the SR1 crew and Anderson make any effort to find a way to stop the reapers? They most likely would just stand there suffering from cat-got-your-tongue syndrome. Both turned their back to humanity, the galaxy and most of all, Shepard. That's why I mentioned I would smash them in the face to knock some sense in them. As soon as the name Cerberus was mentioned, both turn stupid.
On Mars, they ask Shepard why Cerberus is there. What a stupid question. How would Shepard know? Had they pulled their head out of their fifth point of contact and visited Shepard during the six months, they would know Shepard has had no contact with Cerberus and all ties to them have been severed. Where's the dunce hat when you need one.
As far as romancing them and the coup, its not hard to get them to stand down if you visited them 3 times in the hospital and get the booze or poetry for them. Of course Shepard still has to use the interrupt and the dialogue on the left to get them to stand down
It is quite odd that both Tali and Garrus - "the aliens", trust Shepard pretty much from the get go while Ashley/Kaidan are outright hostile. Given the Quarians experiences with Cerberus, she is the one you'd expect to be suspicious about Shepard.
It's so funny that with Udina that Garrus has evolved to be the shooter.
It is quite odd that both Tali and Garrus - "the aliens", trust Shepard pretty much from the get go while Ashley/Kaidan are outright hostile. Given the Quarians experiences with Cerberus, she is the one you'd expect to be suspicious about Shepard.
You also right away have the option to give Tali evidence that Shepard is truly Shepard which conveniently misses in all the other dialogues.
Ashley/Kaidan's mistrust on Horrizon I can understand to a certain degree. After that my patience wears very thin. They both ignore the real threat to the colonies and that is the collectors. They assume Cerberus might be working with the collectors. If that was the case, why would Shepard work with Cerberus? Here's a question I like to ask them. Why didn't they along with the rest of the SR1 crew and Anderson make any effort to find a way to stop the reapers? They most likely would just stand there suffering from cat-got-your-tongue syndrome. Both turned their back to humanity, the galaxy and most of all, Shepard. That's why I mentioned I would smash them in the face to knock some sense in them. As soon as the name Cerberus was mentioned, both turn stupid.
On Mars, they ask Shepard why Cerberus is there. What a stupid question. How would Shepard know? Had they pulled their head out of their fifth point of contact and visited Shepard during the six months, they would know Shepard has had no contact with Cerberus and all ties to them have been severed. Where's the dunce hat when you need one.
As far as romancing them and the coup, its not hard to get them to stand down if you visited them 3 times in the hospital and get the booze or poetry for them. Of course Shepard still has to use the interrupt and the dialogue on the left to get them to stand down
I think part of the "ignoring the Reaper threat" bit, which is, obviously, quite stupid on both the part of the Council and the Alliance, can actually be chalked up to the Reapers not being an immediate threat right now. The immediate threat are the colonies going missing. Nobody knows why and your LI is bait (and at this point I really need to be told what VS stands for because I haven't figured it out yet). I mean, there's still no obvious evidence that the Reapers are behind any of this. I'm not sure it's all that clear to Shepard until you board the Collector ship and find the broken DNA of the Prothean race.
So, purely in the sense that the job of the Alliance is to protect human colonies, I can stretch to allow that that's what they're doing. They're not actively looking for Reaper involvement. Now, there's really no reason the Council isn't sending Spectres to look for Reaper involvement. Of all the Spectres they've only got Shepard doing that job, and only sort of half-hearted at best? That's where my patience starts to wear thin.
As for the rest and the conversation on Mars, I completely agree.
and at this point I really need to be told what VS stands for because I haven't figured it out yet.
Oh, sorry! It's "Virmire Survivor".
I always choose Kaidan for the narrative sake (and obviously, he's my canon LI, whatever). He was already a well-decorated officer like Shepard before he was assigned to the Normandy. He was trained to fly Normandy as Joker's co-pilot. He was ambitious and an experienced special operative. His L2 give him powers within the range of an Asari. He was already familiar with Anderson as his commanding officer. He made sense to me as a Spectre since other than Shepard, he was the logical secondary candidate that everyone considered from the start.
Ashley's existence is an anomaly. She's just a special snowflake grunt you pick up from a backwater colony who is lucky to be alive to replace Jenkins, lucky to be assigned to Normandy, lucky to be alive again when everyone is dead, lucky to jump through ranks which is taken as an apology over their treatment toward her and her family. She only join the military because she want to redeem her family (Kaidan join the military because he killed someone with his biotics as a kid and its the only career path he could take) and "If anyone else can look at Shanxi and say, 'This is why the humanity need to be stronger' and so can I. I am entitled!".... Her grandfather choose to save his people from orbital bombardment and starvation and she wished that he was 'stronger' and not give in to the aliens? She resented her grandfather and how his decision affected her and her father's military life, and not once she considered that she could have chosen another career. No, she's too stubborn for that and because she's entitled to it. And after getting all that she 'deserved'; an officer rank, a spectre rank; suddenly she went from someone with a purpose to a person who kept whining about her existential crisis and bad decisions. I offered her a place in my ship, no, she cant decide anything yet, she have to ask Udina for permission...??? And then after I made her kill him and she's all "I don't know what I'm doing".... which applies to pretty much the rest of her existence in the story including getting drunk on the floor.
Where was this beautiful headstrong woman with an acid tongue, who fight better against Geth Colossus with a sniper rifle than a medium-armored Garrus, whose face isn't a morph of Kim Kardashian, who isn't a spineless Spectre who felt more loyalty to an ******* traitorous politician than her own commanding officer...Nope. I'm still happy that I sacrifice her on Virmire. Her story ends tragic but she remains the same person I like in ME1. Shepard and Kaidan still grieving for her years later. The Turian military and Salarian Union recognized her sacrifice and made her a hero. She was replaced by James. Anderson wouldn't need to train another soldier to fill in Shepard's place. I don't need another Lieutenant on my warship. All is good.
I'm going to post it here just because I happened to find this thread and it's a somewhat recent thought for me: Despite what is claimed everywhere, Ashley isn't racist: she's nationalistic. Mentally transform the situation into modern day, real world terms. Let's say the US builds a really advanced ship, and as part of a joint operation has crew from other nations. Command would have to consider how much they want those sailors to see and know because, while they are united with them in this cause, they have other loyalties. This is the same argument the Angry Admiral makes when he inspects the Normandy.
I'm going to post it here just because I happened to find this thread and it's a somewhat recent thought for me: Despite what is claimed everywhere, Ashley isn't racist: she's nationalistic. Mentally transform the situation into modern day, real world terms. Let's say the US builds a really advanced ship, and as part of a joint operation has crew from other nations. Command would have to consider how much they want those sailors to see and know because, while they are united with them in this cause, they have other loyalties. This is the same argument the Angry Admiral makes when he inspects the Normandy.
Add to it that some of them are mercs that kill for money and suddenly Ashley sounds really reasonable. I agree. I think Ashley is just being cautious. Although I am surprised she worried more about Garrus, a C-Sec officer and a turian (The Normandy is of human-turian design. The turians already have the plans.), rather than Tali because the quarians have pretty poor reputation.
Also, her talk about sacrificing the dog to save yourself can be a bit unpleasant at first. However, by that she makes a very good point that we're still a lesser race to the Council races (Hell, even Avina calls the non-Council races "lesser races".) and that they are likely to cover their own ass first and foremost. Then ME3 comes and proves her oh so right, too. (I didn't like the dog and bear analogy because it sounded cruel but she had a point regardless.)
I've also heard some people have issues with her "I can't tell the aliens from the animals," which, I have heard, is a bug and the line should be said around Keepers. It's perhaps an unkind remark, but considering that Shepard can go and call a random hanar a "big, stupid jellyfish" and everybody finds that to be hilarious, well, she didn't really say that much in comparison. (Not saying I like her comment. I don't.)
I think Ashley's "problem" is that she has such a big mouth and doesn't pick words carefully. I also don't think she's racist. Heck, if you let her talk to the Terra Firma guys, she sends them to hell along with their ideas. "Terra Firma is a pack of jackals," she tells me.
Ashley, as far as I know, doesnt seem all that racist, She still just has some grudges, afterall she still isnt over the fact that her grandfather had to lose during the attack on Shanxi... Though her analogies are quite well unpleasant but she isnt as bad as a full blown racist renegade shepard who can kill countless of species Rachni, Krogan, and I think there are more... She is a good soldier, as for spectre material? Shes too hot headed, brash and trigger happy though i am quite unsure if she actually develops in ME3 haven't had the time to watch her growth as a character... But as she stands in ME1 no i dont think she should be a spectre especially killing wrex, afterall like Vanilka pointed out why not shoot to disarm? Shes a skilled soldier shes capable of doing it and also Shepard but I guess killing is always the answer :|...
It's not really racist to assume that if the Genophage is cured the Krogan will spread across the Galaxy as they did before, nor is it crazy to believe the Rachni will do the same. You only have the Queen's word, the word of a Queen, who despite genetic memory, was not actually alive back then, and you have just been attacked by tons of Rachni, why should you believe her?
Shepard has to make some big decisions, but only the biggest ******* Shep can be racist against the crew he recruited. Ashley actually ask can we trust them? A C-Sec officer who was investigating Saren, a Quarian who helped us get the support of the council is the ultimate reason I became a Spectre and got my own ship? I can see her wondering about Wrex, and to a degree Liara, but she says this even if you don't grab Wrex, I tried this last night.
I liked both Ashley's and Kaidan's comments on the Rachni mission. I understand Ashley's concern with potential collateral damage if you release the Queen. I think she's right. It's exactly what I was thinking the first time around, too. (I did in the end release the Queen but that's beside the point.) Kaidan made a great point that it wasn't our place to make that decision to begin with and that it was something better left to the Council that had already dealt with Rachni before... which makes me think about why the heck we couldn't keep the Queen where she was and leave her to the Council, indeed, because that would be the best course of action. (It's not like the cage had a timer, right?) Either way, I don't think that being worried about releasing an already extinct and pretty infamous race is racist at all. That's pretty sensible. I also think it's sensible to assume that curing the genophage might go all kinds of wrong. (I cure it very much realising that and have to hope that doing what I feel is the right thing won't come biting us in the ass. Leaps of faith everywhere.) It's not racist to be cautious based on what we know of these races. (I think that's what makes ME games great. There are no obvious rights or wrongs sometimes.)
You make a good point about Tali, Whitering, she should be trustworthy since she did so much to help us. (On the other hand, I don't really believe that a person that helped us could never use us in any way or have ulterior motives. [I've had a long-term companion stab me in the back towards the end of one of BW games. You never know! 
] That's not a comment about Tali, though. More in general.) Being suspicious about Liara and Wrex makes much more sense. And she's not really worried about them because of their races but, from what I understood, they're simply strangers to the Normandy and the Alliance. They're basically bound by no rules. There's no reason they should be loyal to us the way the Alliance crew is. Liara's Benezia's daughter. Wrex is a gun for hire. I mostly find Ashley's concern with Garrus really strange. Maybe it's her family's past speaking?
I like Ashley's comment during the rachni mission. 'C**kroach down'.
You make a good point about Tali, Whitering, she should be trustworthy since she did so much to help us. (On the other hand, I don't really believe that a person that helped us could never use us in any way or have ulterior motives. [I've had a long-term companion stab me in the back towards the end of one of BW games. You never know!
Except she couches it in terms of aliens irc, her and Pressly must have lunch together.
Except she couches it in terms of aliens irc, her and Pressly must have lunch together.
You mean she says something along the lines that she's "worried about the aliens" or...?
Yeah, there's no arguing that Pressley was racist. It was pretty sweet to find his journal on Alchera and read he learnt better. Kind of wish we got to see it in ME1, though.
You mean she says something along the lines that she's "worried about the aliens" or...?
Yeah, there's no arguing that Pressley was racist. It was pretty sweet to find his journal on Alchera and read he learnt better. Kind of wish we got to see it in ME1, though.
Umm, I am old and despite having played it just last night I hesitate to commit to her exact wording, and she does clarify if you push it that it's because of her grandfather and whatnot, so she's probably just talking about Garrus.
Strangely, the companion in this game that stabs you in the back in this game is Ashley or Kaidan.
Strangely, the companion in this game that stabs you in the back in this game is Ashley or Kaidan.
I don't see it that way. But I think I've rambled more than enough about that. I've never liked being with Cerberus. I'd be gone the moment I got loose if only the game let me.
What Kaidan and ashley did wasnt a betrayal... What they did was prove their loyalty to the alliance.. Its quite annoying how shepard was railroaded to having to work with cerberus ==.== and how the alliance seemed to be sitting on their ass.. But i chalk that up to the storyline.... But if you want to see that way your choice 
Add to it that some of them are mercs that kill for money and suddenly Ashley sounds really reasonable. I agree. I think Ashley is just being cautious. Although I am surprised she worried more about Garrus, a C-Sec officer and a turian (The Normandy is of human-turian design. The turians already have the plans.), rather than Tali because the quarians have pretty poor reputation.
I've also heard some people have issues with her "I can't tell the aliens from the animals," which, I have heard, is a bug and the line should be said around Keepers. It's perhaps an unkind remark, but considering that Shepard can go and call a random hanar a "big, stupid jellyfish" and everybody finds that to be hilarious, well, she didn't really say that much in comparison. (Not saying I like her comment. I don't.)
Ashley is suspicious of Garrus because he's a Turian. The Turians may have co-developed the Normandy, but the Tantalus Drive Core is of human designs, if I'm not mistaken. I don't think the Turians have access to that. Remember that the 1st contact war was not that long ago. As I said above, she may have no problem with Garrus as far as the current mission, but she knows he has allegiance to his people, not the Alliance. Also recall how Turian society functions, particularly the sense of duty.
There is only one problem with the aliens from the animals line; almost all of the different species are humanoid so it doesn't work as it would if there were more strange looking aliens. The comment is about physical appearances, not value. Think of Men In Black where Jay first enters the Customs area and sees all those different aliens, many very strange looking. Now, plenty of cartoons have done the joke where the "fish out of water" character being exposed to aliens mistakes the master and pet, but they didn't do that. One could easily think the Elcor were just animals, for example.
I believe you took that with a renegade approach. "Whatever is necessary for the war" is basically the renegade motto. That aside, there are many reasons to rescue both, and on my first playthrough, I chose Ashley. She never really grew on me as much as she could have, either, and I pretty much just ended up picking Kaidan every time on my main Shepard, and I still don't plan on changing this back.
I feel that more paragon Shepards would choose Kaidan over Ashley, rather than the other way around. I know for certain that if you're playing through the eyes of a hardcore renegade character, then your Shepard will likely see exactly as you stated: weakness, which is not something worth having around, if you can have someone more courageous, strong hearted, etc. I know my renegade Shepard chose Ashley over Kaidan, easily.
Can't you find Garrus and not let him join the crew? Or is that only if you already have Wrex?
Yes. If you learn about Wrex from Barla Von and go to C-Sec academy, you'll meet Wrex there. Go handle Fist with him, then rescue Tali. When you go to C-Sec Academy again after the Council meeting, Garrus will be waiting at the elevator to the dock and ask to join. You can refuse.
From what I hear, it's also noteworthy that if you do this and do Virmire before recruiting Liara, Wrex will automatically back down without needing the P/R check or his family armor. I'm not sure why this is, since Tali and either Ashley or Kaidan would still give you a squad of three. I've never tried this so I don't know what the dialogue is.
@Natuureguy85 So you can't have neither of them?
@Natuureguy85 So you can't have neither of them?
You mean Wrex and Garrus? One of them has to be recruited.
I have finished a playthrough without either one on the squad. To have that happen, recruit Wrex and not Garrus. Rescue Liara before Virmire. Shoot Wrex. There you go. No Wrex or Garrus at the end of your playthrough
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