I wasn't totally familiar with the concept of "placeholder squadmembers" at the time, but Daveth is how I knew Mairi was going to die as soon as she said she hadn't taken her Joining yet. He was the one willing to take the risk and he died. Likewise, Mairi was excited to be a Grey Warden.
Reminds me of Jenkins. Poor sod. Lasted about two minutes. (I knew he was going to die the moment he joined the party, too. He looked too much like a regular NPC in comparison with Kaidan. Suspicious!)
Reminds me of Jenkins. Poor sod. Lasted about two minutes. (I knew he was going to die the moment he joined the party, too. He looked too much like a regular NPC in comparison with Kaidan. Suspicious!)
I knew it from the conversation with him. Naive and eager is a bad combination. In fairness, he didn't die doing anything stupid.
This whole coup thing was pure bullshit. How could one teammate shoot another without a second thought? And why kill them, not just neutralize them? This is even worse. Every squadmate (maybe except for Vega) has at least one skill that could neutralize Udina/VS without killing them, but no, BioWare wanted more drama and more reason to hate Ash/Kai. ( I guess trained soldiers like Ash/Kaidan don't even use kinetic shields... )
In my opinion, VS' problem with mistrust towards Shepard was way overused. BioWare really couldn't understand when to back off with it.
Of course, it's really easy to make then stand down during the coup, even without paragon/renegade persuasion or even interrupt, but still... the whole situation is both silly and stupid.
I may be, again, one of the few people who liked the coup. I agree it's about drama, but I felt it was a good one. Things between Shepard and the VS have been shaky at Mars and really tense, too, depending on how you play it, and frankly, if Shepard does not visit the VS in the hospital or just neglect them, then they can't set a path to working things out in their conversation.
Though I assume the VS had been in an emotionally unstable position during the coup anyway. They were just made Spectre (no doubt because of Udina's political BS, and because he knew they were loyal, using that to his advantage), they wanted to protect the Council, and then Shepard comes along, out of the blue. The VS had just gotten over the whole Horizon thing (if visited in the hospital), and then Udina uses Cerberus again to manipulate them to stay on his side while Shepard tries to get the VS on their side. What is the right thing to do here? Trust your old commander without evidence or trust Udina without evidence. At least Kaidan would be in a position that would eat away at him I imagine, always trying to end things without making a rash decision, without having to shoot someone if it's not absolutely necessary (not sure about Ash, but since she reacts exactly the same, this can be assumed for both I think).
I thought it was well done on a level whether there was more or less trust between Shepard and the VS. I liked how the variables flow into this scene depending on what you did or didn't do earlier.
I know a lot of people don't like the mistrust the VS shows, but I can't help but understand why they do. If I were in their shoes, I'd probably react the same way. Staying loyal is a good thing, but considering how Shepard treated the VS on Horizon, I don't blame them at all if they are only reluctantly showing loyalty.
I guess if anything I'd blame ME2's treatment of the Horizon and the death/coma situation, because without any chance of Shepard being able to properly explain themselves, I don't think it's a surprise there's still mistrust in the VS. But that's just my opinion 
I never approach the Virmire situation as a choice between Ashley or Kaiden, but out of how I view their capabilities and the mission parameters.
And it's nothing personal, I do like both characters. It comes down to how I approach the situation that dictates the outcome.
I may be, again, one of the few people who liked the coup. I agree it's about drama, but I felt it was a good one. Things between Shepard and the VS have been shaky at Mars and really tense, too, depending on how you play it, and frankly, if Shepard does not visit the VS in the hospital or just neglect them, then they can't set a path to working things out in their conversation.
Though I assume the VS had been in an emotionally unstable position during the coup anyway. They were just made Spectre (no doubt because of Udina's political BS, and because he knew they were loyal, using that to his advantage), they wanted to protect the Council, and then Shepard comes along, out of the blue. The VS had just gotten over the whole Horizon thing (if visited in the hospital), and then Udina uses Cerberus again to manipulate them to stay on his side while Shepard tries to get the VS on their side. What is the right thing to do here? Trust your old commander without evidence or trust Udina without evidence. At least Kaidan would be in a position that would eat away at him I imagine, always trying to end things without making a rash decision, without having to shoot someone if it's not absolutely necessary (not sure about Ash, but since she reacts exactly the same, this can be assumed for both I think).
I thought it was well done on a level whether there was more or less trust between Shepard and the VS. I liked how the variables flow into this scene depending on what you did or didn't do earlier.
I know a lot of people don't like the mistrust the VS shows, but I can't help but understand why they do. If I were in their shoes, I'd probably react the same way. Staying loyal is a good thing, but considering how Shepard treated the VS on Horizon, I don't blame them at all if they are only reluctantly showing loyalty.
I guess if anything I'd blame ME2's treatment of the Horizon and the death/coma situation, because without any chance of Shepard being able to properly explain themselves, I don't think it's a surprise there's still mistrust in the VS. But that's just my opinion
I largely agree with you. I think my biggest problem with the Coup is how Shepard always loses their brain in this kind of situations and they never use actual arguments to solve them or to get the Virmire Survivor on their side. (Well, I have more issues with it, but since we're discussing Kaidan/Ashley, I'm going to stick to that.) You can't try to contact the Virmire Survivor. You can't have Shepard properly holster their weapon when they see the Virmire Survivor. They don't let the Virmire Survivor handle it and make the situation unnecessarily difficult. You are not allowed the option to properly reason with them. Your companions do not speak out to support you. (Not even James! James, the single Alliance guy in my crew, is the one I'd expect to support me in this situation, just like he did on Mars.) Shepard keeps fiddling with their weapon even when you use the paragon interrupt to put it away. Etc. All that leads to the Virmire Survivor having to make a leap of faith based on "So, what do I know about this person right now?"
You can see Shepard do this every single damn time when Kaidan/Ashley is involved. On Horizon, you don't get to give them arguments. You mostly can tell them they're too emotional and that they should look around them and that's about it. Shepard barely puts any sort of effort to explaining anything. On Mars, you can either tell them to shut the hell up and get in line, or you can resort to being emotionally manipulative instead ("How can you compare me to him?!" Thanks, that really helps. That explains everything.) and being like "But I still wuv you, Kaidan," instead of trying to actually give them reasons to trust you. Not that I don't like getting all fluffy and cuddly, but it certainly doesn't help anybody understand anything. As much as I love the hospital convo because it's sweet and offers a lot of closure, Shepard still doesn't get a chance to explain what was actually going on with them...
Anyway. I agree it's only logical that the Virmire Survivor is going to be protective of the Council because that's their job and one of the councillors accuses Shepard of something they have been known to have done in the past because they felt it was necessary back then. Even if Shepard has fixed their reputation, you can't just go and ignore when the single most important human in the Council Space accuses somebody of being a terrorist. Not even if it's a friend. Kaidan/Ashley therefore naturally decide to make sure the situation is safe before they proceed. It's all Udina's fault. You can see the Virmire Survivor lowers their weapon the moment they see Shepard and ask what the hell is going on. Shepard certainly doesn't help it acting the way they do.
Another thing is the goddamn Salarian councillor herself/himself. They suspect Udina from doing something suspicious and who do they contact? Shepard who is in a different part of the galaxy at that time and not the Spectre actually present on the Citadel.
The Citadel Coup's saving grace, at least as far as I am concerned, is that it makes Kaidan/Ashley's story interesting and the romance is quite dramatic then. How many romances allow you to have an armed standoff with your love interest, right? I've never played a game with a more complicated and dramatic romance and I greatly enjoy how bittersweet the whole thing is throughout the franchise (only to turn fully sweet later on because I still like me my happy endings). But Shepard's writing makes me really unhappy sometimes.
It's funny that he has a full skill tree though.Reminds me of Jenkins. Poor sod. Lasted about two minutes. (I knew he was going to die the moment he joined the party, too. He looked too much like a regular NPC in comparison with Kaidan. Suspicious!)
I may be, again, one of the few people who liked the coup. I agree it's about drama, but I felt it was a good one. Things between Shepard and the VS have been shaky at Mars and really tense, too, depending on how you play it, and frankly, if Shepard does not visit the VS in the hospital or just neglect them, then they can't set a path to working things out in their conversation.
Though I assume the VS had been in an emotionally unstable position during the coup anyway. They were just made Spectre (no doubt because of Udina's political BS, and because he knew they were loyal, using that to his advantage), they wanted to protect the Council, and then Shepard comes along, out of the blue. The VS had just gotten over the whole Horizon thing (if visited in the hospital), and then Udina uses Cerberus again to manipulate them to stay on his side while Shepard tries to get the VS on their side. What is the right thing to do here? Trust your old commander without evidence or trust Udina without evidence. At least Kaidan would be in a position that would eat away at him I imagine, always trying to end things without making a rash decision, without having to shoot someone if it's not absolutely necessary (not sure about Ash, but since she reacts exactly the same, this can be assumed for both I think).
I thought it was well done on a level whether there was more or less trust between Shepard and the VS. I liked how the variables flow into this scene depending on what you did or didn't do earlier.
I know a lot of people don't like the mistrust the VS shows, but I can't help but understand why they do. If I were in their shoes, I'd probably react the same way. Staying loyal is a good thing, but considering how Shepard treated the VS on Horizon, I don't blame them at all if they are only reluctantly showing loyalty.
I guess if anything I'd blame ME2's treatment of the Horizon and the death/coma situation, because without any chance of Shepard being able to properly explain themselves, I don't think it's a surprise there's still mistrust in the VS. But that's just my opinion
The problem with the coup is Cerberus, not the VS. I like the confrontation. It's actually handled well in that, while the distrust of Shepard is annoying, it's there and we know about it. The hospital gives us time to address it and repair the relationship. It's your fault if you didn't do that. The weakest part of it is that it's working off of the mess that was ME2. I blame the poorly written Horizon scene as where Shepard was unable to explain himself. I like that Shepard can be dismissive on Mars. I was sick of it then too!
I never approach the Virmire situation as a choice between Ashley or Kaiden, but out of how I view their capabilities and the mission parameters.
SpoilerAnd it's nothing personal, I do like both characters. It comes down to how I approach the situation that dictates the outcome.
Hey, cool, I do it the same way. For me, it's not just that Kaidan is more experienced, it's that he's an officer and the whole reason I'm putting him on the Salarian team is coordination.
It's funny that he has a full skill tree though.
You could do a Level 60 import and max his health and armour trees, give him level X armour and mods, and he still goes down in typical Bioware Sacrificial Party Member fashion.
I never slapped equipment on him before. Do you lose the stuff he gets?
The problem with the coup is Cerberus, not the VS.
How so? Because we fight them yet again?
But it makes sense. Udina always wanted to advance and protect humanity's interests, and isn't it the logical choice then that he'd ask Cerberus for help? I think he was really desperate, and character-wise that made a lot of sense to me, as you can see in the beginning that he's devastated about what happens to Earth, to some of his friends, and it's a desperate try to help Earth by overthrowing the Council and gain full control of their fleet.
How so? Because we fight them yet again?
But it makes sense. Udina always wanted to advance and protect humanity's interests, and isn't it the logical choice then that he'd ask Cerberus for help? I think he was really desperate, and character-wise that made a lot of sense to me, as you can see in the beginning that he's devastated about what happens to Earth, to some of his friends, and it's a desperate try to help Earth by overthrowing the Council and gain full control of their fleet.
That we fight them yet again certainly doesn't help. We seem to fight them more than the Reapers, which is ridiculous. However, the issue, as it is with ME3 Cerberus in general, is logistics. How the hell did Cerberus pull this off? How did they take over the Citadel?
I see where you're coming from as far as motivation, but even the characters question what the hell Udina was thinking.
That we fight them yet again certainly doesn't help. We seem to fight them more than the Reapers, which is ridiculous.However, the issue, as it is with ME3 Cerberus in general, is logistics. How the hell did Cerberus pull this off? How did they take over the Citadel?
I see where you're coming from as far as motivation, but even the characters question what the hell Udina was thinking.
Strength in numbers? 
I'm not sure just how long everything at Sanctuary went on, but it seems Cerberus took refugees to create their little army for some time now. Whether it's believable, that is something everyone has to answer for themselves. I thought it was okay how at least their soldier numbers were explained, already starting to see on Mars that Cerberus is up to something shady again. But I also understand people who think it's too much.
Though actually Cerberus is my favourite enemy to fight so I don't complain about that, haha.
Yeah, that's true that everyone is surprised, and surely we can be, but on the other hand Udina always felt strong about humanity, and I guess that maybe he just snapped, considering the threat I would think it's entirely possible that this makes some a little extreme or crazy. Sometimes people do desperate things in desperate times.
If they had let this mission play out like they intended, then the Coup would've been staged later in the game, when TIM flees to the Citadel. But it seems there were some hurdles they couldn't do it in that way, and I think as a compromise this mission works still well enough.
The number of grunt soldiers makes some sense, though I still question it because of the issue of time. It's only been a few months since ME2 and nobody needed Sanctuary until the Reapers arrived. The bigger issues are manufacturing and logistics. How did they get all their ships, weapons, armor, gear, and mechs made so quickly? How did they get enough people in position to take over the Citadel like that? I suppose Udina can use his position to get some of that done but it's still a stretch for me.
I see where you're coming from as far as gameplay if you like fighting Cerberus better. I do too since their troops have a bit more tactical variety to them. However, from a story perspective it's wrong. The Reapers should be the primary antagonist. It's not like Dragon Age where the Darkspawn army is way in the south while you deal with Loghain.
I've never bought the reasoning that he wanted to get control over the fleet. Udina is an usurper and a criminal. He allowed a terrorist attack on the Citadel and helped perform it. Did he really think the Citadel fleet would just pack their bags and head to Earth to throw themselves at the Reapers just because some criminal scum who violently took control of the Citadel said so? It doesn't help we never get to find out in the game. As far as I know, this info is only in the codex. (Neither the Council, nor Shepard, nor Anderson and Hackett, nor anybody else understands it in the game, but the codex somehow magically has an explanation.) I never thought of checking the codex in order to understand the story before I learnt of it here. I still don't think that's a proper way to do it. (Show, don't tell, anyone?) It feels lazy and half-assed. But I guess a poor explanation is better than none at all. It still should've been clear from playing the game.
I like the idea of Udina growing desperate and doing something stupid. That wouldn't really be a big surprise. To be honest, I suspected he was going to do something weird when I returned to talk to him once and he told me about moving mountains and stuff. But the Citadel Coup was, in my opinion, pushing it. The Citadel Coup doesn't really make sense because it was supposed to be after Thessia when TIM already knew that the Citadel is the Catalyst. Therefore TIM knew he needed it to control the Reapers. Therefore Cerberus attempted to take control of the Citadel. (Udina would help because he would be desperate to end the Reaper war.) But because the game was rushed and there was no time to do stuff properly (They even removed Javik who was an integral part of the story completely.), they just moved the Citadel Coup right after Tuchanka and hoped nobody's going to think about it too much. Unfortunately, this development shows.
The number of grunt soldiers makes some sense, though I still question it because of the issue of time. It's only been a few months since ME2 and nobody needed Sanctuary until the Reapers arrived. The bigger issues are manufacturing and logistics. How did they get all their ships, weapons, armor, gear, and mechs made so quickly? How did they get enough people in position to take over the Citadel like that? I suppose Udina can use his position to get some of that done but it's still a stretch for me.
I see where you're coming from as far as gameplay if you like fighting Cerberus better. I do too since their troops have a bit more tactical variety to them. However, from a story perspective it's wrong. The Reapers should be the primary antagonist. It's not like Dragon Age where the Darkspawn army is way in the south while you deal with Loghain.
Yeah, I remember some threads about this topic, many said it's not believable.
As for how to take over the Citadel. Hm, not sure if it could be argued that since they strike at the heart of C-Sec, they have the upper hand in a surprise attack and have no real trouble fighting the officers. The people on the Citadel were portrayed as too relaxed the whole time (James and Joker mention it and generally you have the impression people live in denial bad things can happen on the Citadel), guess that could count for C-Sec as well. Plus Cerberus mooks are heavily armored, while the C-Sec staff isn't. I would think that this has a role to play as well. And I remember a dialogue with I believe it was Thane from ME2 where he says that he sees lots of security holes in C-Sec, seems they are not so well organized as they should be 
Yeah, me too, I love how they can easily flank me if I don't pay enough attention and it keeps the fights really interesting and tactically varied, like you said.
I'm not fully agreeing on it's wrong for the story. On one hand, yes, Reapers should be our primary focus and enemy, but on the other hand, since Cerberus opposes Shepard so hard and tries everything to stop the efforts to unite the galaxy, I'm okay with how it goes. TIM really went to more extremes in this game, and his desire to control rather than destroy shows again and again. That, and that of course he is indoctrinated, likely thinking he is doing all of this for himself when in reality it's probably the Reapers' influence to a certain degree. It's never clearly stated obviously, but using him as a source to oppose Shepard, I can see it.
I've never bought the reasoning that he wanted to get control over the fleet. Udina is an usurper and a criminal. He allowed a terrorist attack on the Citadel and helped perform it. Did he really think the Citadel fleet would just pack their bags and head to Earth to throw themselves at the Reapers just because some criminal scum who violently took control of the Citadel said so? It doesn't help we never get to find out in the game. As far as I know, this info is only in the codex. (Neither the Council, nor Shepard, nor Anderson and Hackett, nor anybody else understands it in the game, but the codex somehow magically has an explanation.)
You get a bit of information on this from Bailey, directly after the coup. Shepard asks if Udina really expected his takeover plan to work and Bailey says it looks like it, and that they sifted through the evidence and that he will send a summary.
As for how Udina thinks he can proceed, I guess we don't know enough about it, but the codex entry suggests it has to do with emergency powers. Not sure what they do, but it seems he thought he could achieve this.
Now, of course it would've been nice to get all this in form of an e-mail and not a codex entry, that would've probably sufficed.
Though I don't sweat it, interpreting the happenings is also a lot of fun
Yeah, I remember some threads about this topic, many said it's not believable.
As for how to take over the Citadel. Hm, not sure if it could be argued that since they strike at the heart of C-Sec, they have the upper hand in a surprise attack and have no real trouble fighting the officers. The people on the Citadel were portrayed as too relaxed the whole time (James and Joker mention it and generally you have the impression people live in denial bad things can happen on the Citadel), guess that could count for C-Sec as well. Plus Cerberus mooks are heavily armored, while the C-Sec staff isn't. I would think that this has a role to play as well. And I remember a dialogue with I believe it was Thane from ME2 where he says that he sees lots of security holes in C-Sec, seems they are not so well organized as they should be
Yeah, me too, I love how they can easily flank me if I don't pay enough attention and it keeps the fights really interesting and tactically varied, like you said.
I'm not fully agreeing on it's wrong for the story. On one hand, yes, Reapers should be our primary focus and enemy, but on the other hand, since Cerberus opposes Shepard so hard and tries everything to stop the efforts to unite the galaxy, I'm okay with how it goes. TIM really went to more extremes in this game, and his desire to control rather than destroy shows again and again. That, and that of course he is indoctrinated, likely thinking he is doing all of this for himself when in reality it's probably the Reapers' influence to a certain degree. It's never clearly stated obviously, but using him as a source to oppose Shepard, I can see it.
Yeah, I get the idea of Cerberus having the surprise advantage once they actually attack, but my issue is more with how they get everything in place. However, like you pointed out, they did give hints that the Citadel really isn't all that secure.
TIM wanting Control is done well, and I get the idea that he's opposing Shepard. What would be cool is if he was attempting to build his own version of the Crucible. This would explain Cerberus' presence at Crucible related missions, like Mars. However he isn't. Notice how he fights Shepard, which blocks Shepard from aiding in the Crucible's completion, but needs the Crucible for his Control plan? I know he's Indoctrinated, but I don't like this contradiction.
So then why do we fight Cerberus on Surkesh and not the Reapers? Or Grissom Academy? Or the Tuchanka bomb? I just don't like how they are everywhere.
Yeah, I remember some threads about this topic, many said it's not believable.
As for how to take over the Citadel. Hm, not sure if it could be argued that since they strike at the heart of C-Sec, they have the upper hand in a surprise attack and have no real trouble fighting the officers. The people on the Citadel were portrayed as too relaxed the whole time (James and Joker mention it and generally you have the impression people live in denial bad things can happen on the Citadel), guess that could count for C-Sec as well. Plus Cerberus mooks are heavily armored, while the C-Sec staff isn't. I would think that this has a role to play as well. And I remember a dialogue with I believe it was Thane from ME2 where he says that he sees lots of security holes in C-Sec, seems they are not so well organized as they should be
I took Legion, a live geth with that typical flashlight head, on the Citadel just to see what happens. You know what happened? Nothing. Nothing happened. The security lady kindly told me to leave my "synthetic assistant" at home as they're not permitted on public transport any more and the scans picked up nothing, as well. I love how they suspect these two asari from being geth infiltrators, but an actual geth very visibly, albeit unintentionally, infiltrating the Citadel? Nah. Cerberus agents? Nah. The most unsuccessful troll I have ever attempted.
You know, sometimes I really worry about the Citadel's safety.
I took Legion, a live geth with that typical flashlight head, on the Citadel just to see what happens. You know what happened? Nothing. Nothing happened.
You know, sometimes I really worry about the Citadel's safety.
you should be even anderson doesnt mind it just calls legion a trophy bot... Hell even thane can still remember all the weak spots of the citadel and its been 10 years? and whats worse is that instead of the weak spots lessening they increased over the years... talk about safety... no wonder cerberus got in so easily... plus the fact i think some csec officers were bought off by cerberus... The citadel definitely isnt the safest place at all... Youd think they'd actually upgrade the defenses since the attack on ME1 but apparently they thought it wouldnt happen again... I blame the council <.<
TIM wanting Control is done well, and I get the idea that he's opposing Shepard. What would be cool is if he was attempting to build his own version of the Crucible. This would explain Cerberus' presence at Crucible related missions, like Mars. However he isn't. Notice how he fights Shepard, which blocks Shepard from aiding in the Crucible's completion, but needs the Crucible for his Control plan? I know he's Indoctrinated, but I don't like this contradiction.
So then why do we fight Cerberus on Surkesh and not the Reapers? Or Grissom Academy? Or the Tuchanka bomb? I just don't like how they are everywhere.
That would've been a good idea, I agree.
Maybe this is a stretch again, but I took it like this: finding the plans on Mars and talking to Shepard, TIM doesn't want the Crucible to be built or used because Shepard makes it clear what they intend to do with it. TIM, maybe already having this breakthrough at Sanctuary or trusting in this research (no chance to find out how far they were into these experiments already, but the Cerberus soldier the VS found might've been an early victim of their achievements) doesn't want to allow Shepard to destroy the Reapers.
He might think at the beginning he will eventually control the Reapers with his own methods. Only later on he realises he actually needs both the Catalyst, and the Crucible, but this is very late in the game only. I think he only mentions needing the Crucible in the last conversation? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that he never found out earlier because he first needed to actually also know what the Catalyst is.
And then again, maybe since the Crucible is introduced as some kind of weapon first TIM studies the plans first to realise at some point it could maybe also be used to control, similar to what Javik tells us, that in his cycle a faction believed that the Crucible could be used to control rather than destroy the Reapers.
Anyway, all of this plays conveniently into the Reapers' hands, and plays along well with indoctrination as well I guess. The only time they perceive TIM as a threat and not as some tool who can do their job is when they find out about what happened at Sanctuary.
For the second point. Why waste your own army if you have people that fight for your cause? Isn't that how the Reapers always do that? In Javik's cycle it was the case, and we also see it in our cycle. Starting fighting from within, divide and conquer.
There's interesting conversations with Javik during the Citadel coup (In our cycle, factions also turned on each other. The Reapers used them to spread fear. and In our cycle, entire planets were lost because a few leaders were indoctrinated. They urged their armies to fight one another.) and Shepard mentions how TIM should be fighting with them, not against them.
(Which also just reminded me of that comment about sleeper agents when examining one of the bodies during the coup. Guess that's how they pulled it off then?)
Yeah, it's the last conversation where he says "I know the Crucible will allow me to Control them." Of course, I have to wonder how he knows when we still have no idea what it does. I guess he just figured it out from the data he stole. Your interpretation is the best one I can think of and I share it, but I just don't know how he got from point A to point B.
Yes, fighting Cerberus makes sense in the light of them being Indoctrinated servants, but TIM has some free will because he's doing research at Sanctuary, much like Saren on Virmire, and the Reapers attack it. Also remember the inverse relationship between the level of control exerted and the utility of the Indoctrinated subject. The sleeper agents are one thing; an independent army is another. While Cerberus somehow pulls tons of resources out of its ass between games, they are at some point, finite. On the other hand, the Reapers can create their mooks out of all millions they are killing.
Yeah, it's the last conversation where he says "I know the Crucible will allow me to Control them." Of course, I have to wonder how he knows when we still have no idea what it does. I guess he just figured it out from the data he stole. Your interpretation is the best one I can think of and I share it, but I just don't know how he got from point A to point B.
Yes, fighting Cerberus makes sense in the light of them being Indoctrinated servants, but TIM has some free will because he's doing research at Sanctuary, much like Saren on Virmire, and the Reapers attack it. Also remember the inverse relationship between the level of control exerted and the utility of the Indoctrinated subject. The sleeper agents are one thing; an independent army is another. While Cerberus somehow pulls tons of resources out of its ass between games, they are at some point, finite. On the other hand, the Reapers can create their mooks out of all millions they are killing.
Yeah, it might be from the plans data, or also a possibility that he pulled the data from Vendetta. And then he might have just been very enthusiastic in a "I just know it!" kinda way. He couldn't have really known about the Crucible control option (especially when it's not available ).
It's true with the resources, and I can see why people are not believing all this stuff.
Maybe it was a mistake to have them make this big focus on Cerberus after they were an opponent in ME1, where it was even optional to fight them. I guess with ME2 and Shepard's reconstruction they wanted to show that Cerberus has a lot of resources and they achieve whatever they want. And I guess it was either that or a complete new faction with the believable resources in ME3.
And then it could've been not that great if we had this complete new faction out of nowhere as well. At least the Cerberus story with all their crazy experiments and leader we used to work with created a nice case of familiarity for me. And honestly, I like TIM as a character, he's so interesting and I'm not so sure if it would've had the same effect and impact in the end if we fought a complete different group by ME3.
It's pretty clear the Illusive Man is indoctrinated, Saren thought he could work with the Reapers as well, it's the way they are insidious. This is where the extended cut fell down in my opinion (well, even more), it showed that you did control the Reapers, which, really? They should have gone totally dark and used Shepard to completely undermine the war effort and make the reaping even more complete.
It's pretty clear the Illusive Man is indoctrinated, Saren thought he could work with the Reapers as well, it's the way they are insidious. This is where the extended cut fell down in my opinion (well, even more), it showed that you did control the Reapers, which, really? They should have gone totally dark and used Shepard to completely undermine the war effort and make the reaping even more complete.
Personally, I hate that Control is even an option. You just spent the entire game, including the previous scene, telling TIM that it wasn't possible and was a bad idea even if it was.
Personally, I like the concept of controlling or destroying the Reapers, but I would go about it completely differently because (introducing a massive deus ex machina at that point and) choosing out of three (or four) gates at the end of the game to finish is rather anticlimactic and awkward. (It's not the only problem here, but I'm not going to go into all the other issues here.) And I think we should have got an option to agree with the Illusive Man throughout the game. Not because I want to agree with him necessarily, but because, as Natureguy85 said, it's absolutely ridiculous that you argue against it until the last minute and, in the end, Shepard can make 180° turn in a matter of seconds because some players do go for Control and that totally contradicts what they are forced to believe pretty much the entire game, whether they like it or not. Also, as much as I love yelling at TIM, I'd be in favour of this because this is a roleplaying game and having two or three flavours of NOPE isn't all that satisfying.
And I think we should have got an option to agree with the Illusive Man throughout the game. Not because I want to agree with him necessarily, but because, as Natureguy85 said, it's absolutely ridiculous that you argue against it until the last minute and, in the end, Shepard can make 180° turn in a matter of seconds because some players do go for Control and that totally contradicts what they are forced to believe pretty much the entire game, whether they like it or not.
The other way to do it, which relies more on better writing than opening choice, is to keep Shepard arguing with TIM at first but have the story show that TIM might be right, giving you a reason to change your mind and choose Control at the end
The best chance to do this was with Admiral Daro'Xen. On Tali's loyalty mission in Mass Effect 2, Xen tells you that she wants to bring the Geth back as their servants; she wants to Control them. All they had to do was keep this central to that whole story arc. The three Quarian Admirals would reflect the three choices at the end. Garrel (Destroy), Xen (Control) and Korris (Peace, which is Synthesis because of Geth in Quarian suits.) could be looked back on when you make that final decision.
Retour en haut
