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[Kurogane335]

That sounds right to me.

 

As regards the Qunari, I was trying to think of a culture, any culture or religion, in which the raising of children/offspring is collectivized as Iron Bull will describe.  The only thing I could come up with is the Israeli Kibbutz, where the children spend their time in a house specifically designed to raising children and are cared for and educated by a nanny in a role similar to a Tamassran.

 

Can anyone else think of anything similar, or a better real world parallel for Qunari collectivized child rearing?

 

Fournier's Phalanstères are really close on the basics of the Qunari society : no marriages, children are taught by the community and basically have no parents, everyone as very strict activities (even, if you have to change them at set hours of the day, alternating between manual labour and artistic creation), there is no family, etc.

 

All in all, the Qun seems to be a mix of Fournier's socialist utopia, Buddhism (Koslun has discovered what he considers the truth of the world's ways, just like Buddha did. Contrary to the monotheist Prophets, no God or divinity came to grant them knowledge, they achieved illumination by themselves, and this Illumination is supposed to free them from the sufferings of the world, and so does it for those they teach it) and dystopian control of society (but not to the extreme people often ascribe to them). I can't feel anything remotely islamic (which is distinct from Islamist) in the Qunari society or the Qun.
 

[Heimdall]

I mean that Jeanne was an almost entirely symbolic person whose own battlefield behavior was borderline moronic and she only succeeded as well as she did because of the extensive help and experience she go from other nobles and the Court.

Actually her own generals attested that she was a brilliant battlefield tactician, according to my history professor.

[MissOuJ]

I wouldn't call the Qunari culture religion by any stretch of the world, although we really haven't seen enough of it to make any definitive analysis. First of all, the Qun is referred to as a philosophy by the Qunari, and the founder of the Qun is Ashkaari (scolar/scientst) Koslun - then again that is not far from teacher which is what Buddha is often called and we consider Buddhism a(n atheistic) religion. But the Qunari don't seem to have any rituals or holy places, religious practices or holidays, which usually are one of the defining characteristics of a religion. Nor do they (seem) to have any creation myths or any other similar myths. All in all, I'd call the Qun a mix of philosophy and an ideology, but not a religion. But, historically speaking, their actions do have similarities to the Islamic conquests (not to mention superior technology, both military and civilian), and the fighting between the Qun(ari) and the Chantry (and the Exalted Marches in particular) are so obviously inspired by the Crusades that the similarities are pretty clear.

 

The Chantry is quite obviously a mixture of the three largest Abrahamic religions, i.e. Judaism, Christianity and Islam (warrior prophet, the betrayal and public execution of the prophet, the concept of the original sin), and I love that they actually got the early Christian schisms worked in as well (the debate over Andraste's holiness seems similar to the debate over the status of Jesus' holiness / the concept of the Holy Trinity during the First Council of Nicaea, and the Tevinter-Southern Chantry divide is a pretty obvious nod to the East-West Schism).

 

The elves, on the other hand, seem (to me) to be a mixture of multiple polytheistic religions from the ancient Mesopotamia to the Celts, and although there are some similarities with Judaism, most of those points apply to many - if not all - marginalized religions/people throughout the world history (e.g. the Native Americans, the Roma people and so on). This might be because I mostly associate Judaism as the first large monotheistic religion, and the elves' polytheism is the complete opposite of that.

[Meredydd]

Thanks to everyone who have contributed to the discussion so far.  I really did not expect so many thoughtful responses.  I was rather hesitant to post this topic since I know that discussions on religion can get a bit heated at times. So I thank you all for being respectful to myself and others.  Many of you have given very knowledgeable and well informed responses to the topic and some of you have even corrected me on some things I got wrong or misinterpreted, which is good. Keep it up!

[Heimdall]

I wouldn't call the Qunari culture religion by any stretch of the world, although we really haven't seen enough of it to make any definitive analysis. First of all, the Qun is referred to as a philosophy by the Qunari, and the founder of the Qun is Ashkaari (scolar/scientst) Koslun - then again that is not far from teacher which is what Buddha is often called and we consider Buddhism a(n atheistic) religion. But the Qunari don't seem to have any rituals or holy places, religious practices or holidays, which usually are one of the defining characteristics of a religion. Nor do they (seem) to have any creation myths or any other similar myths. All in all, I'd call the Qun a mix of philosophy and an ideology, but not a religion. But, historically speaking, their actions do have similarities to the Islamic conquests (not to mention superior technology, both military and civilian), and the fighting between the Qun(ari) and the Chantry (and the Exalted Marches in particular) are so obviously inspired by the Crusades that the similarities are pretty clear.

I think less the Crusades and more the period immediately after the Crusades of Ottoman conquest towards Constantinople and eastern Europe. They had (primitive) cannons and everything. For the Qunari anyway. The Exalted Marches are transparently based on the Crusades of course, but the role the Qunari play seems more analogous to the historical role of the Ottomans.
 

The Chantry is quite obviously a mixture of the three largest Abrahamic religions, i.e. Judaism, Christianity and Islam (warrior prophet, the betrayal and public execution of the prophet, the concept of the original sin), and I love that they actually got the early Christian schisms worked in as well (the debate over Andraste's holiness seems similar to the debate over the status of Jesus' holiness / the concept of the Holy Trinity during the First Council of Nicaea, and the Tevinter-Southern Chantry divide is a pretty obvious nod to the East-West Schism).

If I recall correctly, David Gaider said one of the first ideas they threw around when they were creating the Chantry was "What if Christianity had been founded by Jeanne d'Arc?" So I think that actually has a lot more to do with the warrior prophet business than any allusion to Islam. The Chantry leans on Christianity a lot more heavily than anything else. I too loved that they replicated the early church schism though. I was actually kind of disappointed there weren't more schisms and theological debate within the Chantry. Throughout the Middle Ages, the Church was rife with theological and moral debate.
 

The elves, on the other hand, seem (to me) to be a mixture of multiple polytheistic religions from the ancient Mesopotamia to the Celts, and although there are some similarities with Judaism, most of those points apply to many - if not all - marginalized religions/people throughout the world history (e.g. the Native Americans, the Roma people and so on). This might be because I mostly associate Judaism as the first large monotheistic religion, and the elves' polytheism is the complete opposite of that.

Well there's a distinction to be made between the analogous position of the elves in society to real history and the similarities in their beliefs. The way the elves are forces to live in ghettos is clearly evoking the historical position of Jewish populations in Europe. But remember the elves in cities are followers of the Chantry, they don't worship elven gods even if they hold on to some traditions. The Dalish seem loosely analogous to romani in the way they are treated and itinerant lifestyle. Their beliefs could correspond to any number of polytheistic pantheons.

[QueenCrow]

I mean that Jeanne was an almost entirely symbolic person whose own battlefield behavior was borderline moronic and she only succeeded as well as she did because of the extensive help and experience she go from other nobles and the Court.

 

Careful.  You sound like the English-speaking guys whose job it was to discredit and malign her before they burned her.  Politics....

[QueenCrow]

Further entertaining the inspiration for Dragon Age taken from religious history, it seems obvious that Hessarian's remorse after Andraste's execution is based on the statement of extreme remorse made by Geoffroy Terage, Joan of Arc's executioner.  

 

-Pernoud, Régine. "Joan of Arc By Herself and Her Witnesses", p.233

[Gwydden]

As far as I can see the Qunari are communists. Not particularly Marxist communists, but still broadly communists. With a fair bit of dystopia ala Brave New World or 1984 and a dash of mysticism mixed in.

As someone who was raised in a communist country and was forced to learn Marxist theory... not really.

 

I think the confusion comes from the fact that the Qun is a collectivist (what the individual wants is irrelevant; only the needs of the collective matter) and totalitarian (the individual is completely subject to the State) society. Communist is always the former and usually the latter. But not only can communism not be totalitarian, as is the case with anarcho-Marxism, but a society can be collectivist and totalitarian and still not be Marxist.

 

The reason I don't think of them as communist is because they have several, very uncommunist traits. To mention some of the most noticeable:

1. They're a hierarchical meritocracy. Communism believes in eventually reaching the ideal of equality of outcome, but the Qun only believes in equality of opportunity. There is not even the conceit that the State is at the service of the common people. Rather the State is just one part in a well oiled machine.
2. They're aggressively expansionist. Communist states usually prefer to spread their ideology through good PR. The revolution is inevitable anyway, right?
3. They're a theocracy. Communism and religion, uh... Well, they're not mutually exclusive, per se, but they don't mix well. Having priests as the de facto rulers and basing your ideology on an esoteric holy book is a little too much.

They only Marxist thing about the Qun that stands out is that they shun private property. Which is a big deal, make no mistake, but in terms of real world political systems that have seen practical use beyond the theory? I'd say the Qun comes much closer to fascism. They even have the whole analogy of society as an organism, with different parts of it standing in for various areas of the body.

[Meredydd]

 
If I recall correctly, David Gaider said one of the first ideas they threw around when they were creating the Chantry was "What if Christianity had been founded by Jeanne d'Arc?" So I think that actually has a lot more to do with the warrior prophet business than any allusion to Islam. The Chantry leans on Christianity a lot more heavily than anything else. I too loved that they replicated the early church schism though. I was actually kind of disappointed there weren't more schisms and theological debate within the Chantry. Throughout the Middle Ages, the Church was rife with theological and moral debate.
 

I would have loved to seen something similar to the Protestant Reformation happen in the Dragon Age universe or maybe another Exalted March (which might happen with the recent Qunari invasion of Tevinter).  The invasion might be so devastating that it forces Tevinter to call for aid (just like Byzantium did) and the Divine will respond by calling for an Exalted March (like the Pope calling for the Crusades). You never know, there is nothing really stopping Bioware from doing it.

[ModernAcademic]

This is just a list of similarities I have noticed between the civilizations of Thedas and real world religions. I'm not arguing that these groups are solely based off these religions, however the similarities are undeniable.

 

The Elves were influenced by the Jewish peoples. Both:

1. Are composed of various different clans/houses
2. Were driven away from their original homeland
3. Are persecuted, either for their race or their religion
4. Have lived quartered off areas e.g. Alienages, Camps (Nazi Germany), the old Jewish quarter in Jerusalem
5. Are or have been nomadic
6. Refuse to worship Andraste/Jesus

I haven't found anything for the dwarves really. They are similar to the old pagan religions in terms of ancestor and earth reverence, but no striking similarities have come up. 

 

I always thought the Elves in DA were a copy of the elves in The Lord of the Rings. A lost civilization of immortal people who were well-versed in magic and wondrous creations (the Silmarils), had direct contact with the Creators of the world and built an empire, but that overtime was destroyed and became decadent, its culture now only a lost legacy. 

 

The whole DA universe is heavily inspired by Tolkien.

[Steelcan]

Actually her own generals attested that she was a brilliant battlefield tactician, according to my history professor.

She had one truly great victory, her lift of the siege of Orleans, and even that had much more to do with the English being totally unprepared for a French response than any tactical genius on her part.

 

The rest of her campaigns were various degrees of failure, particularly her failed siege of Paris.

[Meredydd]

I always thought the Elves in DA were a copy of the elves in The Lord of the Rings. A lost civilization of immortal people who were well-versed in magic and wondrous creations (the Silmarils), had direct contact with the Creators of the world and built an empire, but that overtime was destroyed and became decadent, its culture now only a lost legacy. 

 

The whole DA universe is heavily inspired by Tolkien.

What you said is true, but this discussion focuses primarily on similarities between the peoples of Thedas and religions of our world, as I said in the title.  I'm sure there are other forum posts that cover similarities between the DA verse and other works of fiction and fantasy.

[Former_Fiend]

And, of course, "heavily inspired by Tolkien" covers 90% of fantasy in one way or another. 

[MissOuJ]

If I recall correctly, David Gaider said one of the first ideas they threw around when they were creating the Chantry was "What if Christianity had been founded by Jeanne d'Arc?" So I think that actually has a lot more to do with the warrior prophet business than any allusion to Islam.

 

Yes, now that you mention it, I vaguely remember having heard that before, and it fits pretty well. Although I always sort of associated Andraste's unification of the Alamari tribes as an allusion to Mohammad, but then again, it might not.

 

Well there's a distinction to be made between the analogous position of the elves in society to real history and the similarities in their beliefs. The way the elves are forces to live in ghettos is clearly evoking the historical position of Jewish populations in Europe. But remember the elves in cities are followers of the Chantry, they don't worship elven gods even if they hold on to some traditions. The Dalish seem loosely analogous to romani in the way they are treated and itinerant lifestyle. Their beliefs could correspond to any number of polytheistic pantheons.

 

Absolutely, and I didn't mean to dismiss that. I just wanted to point out that there are other religious communities in addition to the Jewish people who have faced similar conditions in the mainstream societies they've lived in, for example, the reservations where some of the indigenous peoples of North America still live, and even the European Roma people who are forced into disadvantaged and poor neighbourhoods (and sometimes even makeshift hovel villages), and that personally those are the most immediate connections I personally make - probably because one of my first association with the Jewish faith is 'strict monotheism' (and possibly also because I know significantly less about the former cultures and religions than I know about the Jewish culture and religion, so similarities and differences become more pronounced). That's not to say there aren't multiple allusions to the Jewish people and faith in the elves and their history, such as the fall of Arlathan and the Dales, which could be a reference to the destruction of the First and Second Temples, but then again that is also a matter of interpretation.

[MissOuJ]

I would have loved to seen something similar to the Protestant Reformation happen in the Dragon Age universe or maybe another Exalted March (which might happen with the recent Qunari invasion of Tevinter).  The invasion might be so devastating that it forces Tevinter to call for aid (just like Byzantium did) and the Divine will respond by calling for an Exalted March (like the Pope calling for the Crusades). You never know, there is nothing really stopping Bioware from doing it.

 

I actually thought that the Inquisition was that reformation movement - or at least that there were several allusions to it. No matter what you do, the Chantry gets reformed, one way or another - the difference is that in DA:I, the reform overtakes the mainstream religion and the counter-reformation is actually done by the conservative sects which arise in response to the mainstream reforms. And if that image of Cullen nailing the declaration of the Inquisition on the door of the Chantry in Haven isn't an allusion to Martin Luther nailing the 95 Theses on the door of the All Saint's Church in Wittenberg I'm super disappointed.

[Wulfram]

As someone who was raised in a communist country and was forced to learn Marxist theory... not really.
 
I think the confusion comes from the fact that the Qun is a collectivist (what the individual wants is irrelevant; only the needs of the collective matter) and totalitarian (the individual is completely subject to the State) society. Communist is always the former and usually the latter. But not only can communism not be totalitarian, as is the case with anarcho-Marxism, but a society can be collectivist and totalitarian and still not be Marxist.
 
The reason I don't think of them as communist is because they have several, very uncommunist traits. To mention some of the most noticeable:

• 
  
• They're a hierarchical meritocracy. Communism believes in eventually reaching the ideal of equality of outcome, but the Qun only believes in equality of opportunity. There is not even the conceit that the State is at the service of the common people. Rather the State is just one part in a well oiled machine.
• They're aggressively expansionist. Communist states usually prefer to spread their ideology through good PR. The revolution is inevitable anyway, right?
• They're a theocracy. Communism and religion, uh... Well, they're not mutually exclusive, per se, but they don't mix well. Having priests as the de facto rulers and basing your ideology on an esoteric holy book is a little too much.

They only Marxist thing about the Qun that stands out is that they shun private property. Which is a big deal, make no mistake, but in terms of real world political systems that have seen practical use beyond the theory? I'd say the Qun comes much closer to fascism. They even have the whole analogy of society as an organism, with different parts of it standing in for various areas of the body.

Like I said I agree its not Marxist but I don't think that excludes it from being communist. A lot of the details of Marx's theories and thought are very much of their time, or based on our history, and seem superfluous to the broader categorisation.

As far as the distinctions you make

1. They have different roles, some of which issue orders to others. But I don't believe that "higher" ranks recieve greater privileges, or even necessarily greater honour. They are, at least by Qunari ideology, equal. And I don't thnik the distinction between state and people is one that the Qunari would recognise - to serve the Qun is to serve the People.

2. The Qunari do spread their ideology through PR, for example they won converts in Kirkwall. They use conquest when they think it necessary, just as communist countries did. And

3. From what we've seen so far, the religious nature of the Qun seems rather limited. You could shift the nomenclature without changing the reality. And the Qunari are similarly dismissive of religions that aren't the Qun.

I think the universalist nature of the Qunari ideology stops them being meaningfully fascist.

[Former_Fiend]

Just thought this would be worth throwing into the discussion; here's what David Gaider had to say in regards to the Qunari and real world counter parts(more from a cultural than religious stand point)

 

The Qunari have a role in Thedas very similar to that of the Mongol horde. As you all have already pointed out, of course, the details of their culture are pretty radically different. Something more akin to Vikings or Muslims (and by that I mean that Muslims in the medieval period were much more philosophically and technologically advanced than contemporary Europeans, not to any particular tenet of their beliefs). Someone at work once said they were like Vulcans mixed with the Borg, and that comparison works, too.

 

http://forum.bioware...ions/?bioware=1

[X Equestris]

I actually thought that the Inquisition was that reformation movement - or at least that there were several allusions to it. No matter what you do, the Chantry gets reformed, one way or another - the difference is that in DA:I, the reform overtakes the mainstream religion and the counter-reformation is actually done by the conservative sects which arise in response to the mainstream reforms. And if that image of Cullen nailing the declaration of the Inquisition on the door of the Chantry in Haven isn't an allusion to Martin Luther nailing the 95 Theses on the door of the All Saint's Church in Wittenberg I'm super disappointed.

I agree. With luck, the way the Chantry's reforms unfolded will let it avoid the sort of sectarian-fueled conflicts that happened in Europe during the Reformation and Counter-Reformation. Southern Thedas doesn't need more war.

[QueenCrow]

I would have loved to seen something similar to the Protestant Reformation  (~snip with my apologies~)

The last thing I want to do is take away from the discussion about real world religion as relates to Dragon Age, but I'd also like to take the opportunity to share a game related to the Protestant Reformation, in case you've not seen it already and might enjoy such a game.

 

Kingdom Come:Deliverance - scheduled for release next year.  No elves or magic.  Plenty of Bohemians, Hussites, and swords.

 

https://www.kingdomcomerpg.com/

[Medhia_Nox]

I'm not going to go as in depth as some, but here's my thoughts. 

 

First, I don't think any of them fit very well into real world religions.  They're hodge podge even if similar.  Each great real world religion today has many denominations. This alone makes classifying the simplistic religions of Thedas as any one of them problematic (with Andrasteanism having a maximum of three:  Southern, Northern and Dragon based (extinct?)). 

 

Andrasteanism:  Clearly draws inspiration from Christianity - though, you can't have Christianity without Christ.  Regardless of what Jeanne was - I don't think she was someone who would truly have inspired the world to form a religion around her (to my knowledge, there are not even any monastic sects of Christianity devoted to her.)  She was a tool to be used by France and discarded when no longer useful.  Her story offers no real moral lessons.  No great insights into the human condition with which to ascribe to her. 

 

Andraste really only seems to have one:  "Magic is meant to serve man and never rule over him."  Though, I have to ask:  Wasn't that already IN the Chant of Light prior to her saying it?  

 

Elven religion:  I don't see a Jewish connection at all.  Their cultural plight is, to me, more akin to the indigenous tribes globally, but most notably in North America.  

 

As for their religion.  It is polytheistic and makes me think of the Celtic faith.  The Tuatha de Danann in particular. 

 

Qun:  While I know there's quotes suggesting what the Qun, and the Qunari are supposed to be... the Qunari don't make me think "Mongols" at all.  The Mongols were a nomadic "Horde" loosely affiliated under Temujin.  The mongols practiced Tengriism - which was an animistic religion.  

 

The "communal" aspects of the Qun seem very Eastern, but the way of going about this community doesn't.  Confucianism, at least how it is presented in the Analects (not the end all be all of Confucianism to be sure) is certainly a call for a way to operate in civilization - but is centered around "the Gentleman's Code".  It was a way of both being a citizen and a ruler.  

 

Culturally, they absolutely fit the role of the Ottoman Turks.  As for Islam, the only parallel I see is the call to submit to the Qun.  

[Dean_the_Young]

I dislike relying on any analogy too much when it comes to fictional groups and historic civilizations... in large part because the people making the comparisons often don't know much/enough about the groups they're comparing to carry the comparison far.

 

I mean, sure, some are obvious- the Chantry is loosely based on Christianity. But others are as much wishful thinking/projection as anything: city elves are like jews, unless we raise historic jewish stereotypes and issues such as being associated with banking and wealth (which elves are not), foreign gods (city elves are Andrastian), frequent pogroms (no real modern Thedasian equivalent). Dalish elves are even further removed: they may get the foreign gods, but Jews and their sort of anti-semitism have never been particularly linked to nomadism, violent separatism/separation, or the sort of historical revaunchism of the Dalish.

 

Then there are the groups that have multiple analog sources. Like the Qunari- there's no one historical source or analog to the Qunari.

[Wulfram]

frequent pogroms (no real modern Thedasian equivalent).

"Purges" of Alienages seem to happen fairly regularly. For example in Wycombe during the Clan Lavellan operations, by Howe in the Denerim Alienage and another one that killed Soris' parents

[Ashagar]

Hmm unlike the catholic church complex relationship with Jews you don't have chantry priests getting killed trying to protect elves from mobs like catholic priests were killed attempting to protect Jews and the Divines aren't threatening to excommunicate nobility and kings if they don't protect elves unlike the Popes who also made it clear in numerous papal bulls that anyone who murdered a Jew, forced them to convert  or prevented them from freely worshiping and celebrating their festivals faced excommunication from the church, things that later used by protestants to attack the catholic church for the evils of being tolerant and protective of Jews during the reformation.

[Meredydd]

The last thing I want to do is take away from the discussion about real world religion as relates to Dragon Age, but I'd also like to take the opportunity to share a game related to the Protestant Reformation, in case you've not seen it already and might enjoy such a game.

 

Kingdom Come:Deliverance - scheduled for release next year.  No elves or magic.  Plenty of Bohemians, Hussites, and swords.

 

https://www.kingdomcomerpg.com/

Looks interesting. Thanks.

[Bleachrude]

Hmm unlike the catholic church complex relationship with Jews you don't have chantry priests getting killed trying to protect elves from mobs like catholic priests were killed attempting to protect Jews and the Divines aren't threatening to excommunicate nobility and kings if they don't protect elves unlike the Popes who also made it clear in numerous papal bulls that anyone who murdered a Jew, forced them to convert  or prevented them from freely worshiping and celebrating their festivals faced excommunication from the church, things that later used by protestants to attack the catholic church for the evils of being tolerant and protective of Jews during the reformation.

 

You know...I kind of forgot about that aspect of the catholic church...and they say BSN doesn't have decent threads....

 

Although, if you squint, the fact that the alienages were created by the order of the Divine to prevent the wholesale genocide of the elves _COULD_ be looked as something similar...then again, in DA:O, Vaughn is able to walk in on a wedding and sexually assault a woman even with a chantry mother trying to stop him kind of disproves the idea that the Chantry has THAT much sway....