56 réponses à ce sujet

[Mlady]

Well, I don't think Cory and Archy needed the host's permission. They just seem to sort of spontaneously possess. Flemeth tells Morrigan that she was never in danger because the transfer (of Mythal) must be of her own free will. But then again the Cory/Archy version is the corrupted one, so...

 

Yeah I was thinking that. She's also the best as Solas said. Fair and kind-hearted, so she would not force herself on anyone, and she willingly let Solas take what remained (but I doubt that can actually affect the choice if she wanted to force herself), but his comment about Corypheus discovering effective immorality makes me think that the Blight can make anyone have the power of a God aka the Evanuris (powerful mages). Which also sort of connects with the whole enter the city (obviously Blighted) and become a God.

[azarhal]

 

Hold your horses, I can't seem to find a date for her supposed life, but the Chantry didn't enter Ferelden until the Exalted age, over five centuries after the foundation of the Chantry.  That Flemeth was an Alamarri noblewoman prior to the Chntry entering Ferelden doesn't necessarily put her in the historical vicinity of Andraste.

 

The timeline in WoT put her birth at Tower 0.

 

Well, I don't think Cory and Archy needed the host's permission. They just seem to sort of spontaneously possess. Flemeth tells Morrigan that she was never in danger because the transfer (of Mythal) must be of her own free will. But then again the Cory/Archy version is the corrupted one, so...

 

Corypheus most probably need permission, he has the people who he jump into under his influence/control, so it is easy to get it. Darkpsawns don't have a soul, so that's not a problem. As for Grey Wardens, now you have a very good reasons why the Archdemon auto-destruct when he tries.

[Qun00]

Flemeth talks about herself in the third person sometimes,  She's weird like that.
 
We know she was a mage that encountered Mythal, I'm not sure I catch your meaning.

As far as I'm concerned, the tales are unreliable and very little of it is likely to be true.

[Mlady]

As far as I'm concerned, the tales are unreliable and very little of it is likely to be true.

 

Flemeth herself says it when you use the History perk to state her life story. She says one day someone will do the same for you, and then says yes it's true. Then she gets angry and shouts out about betrayal and vengeance for her and Mythal. "She was betrayed as I was betrayed as this whole world was betrayed!" I suspect Andraste was the same.

[Statare]

What Flemeth did in DA2 to come back to life is actually nothing like what Corypheus or the Archedemons do. Flemeth gave Hawke an amulet, said amulet was placed upon an altar of Mythal in a ritual conducted by an elf (Merrill), and her Flemeth body, not just Mythal spirit, materialized (either teleportation or rebirth, depending on Warden choice in Origins). What she did is actually more akin to random things done in the setting where we do some ritual and summon a demon. There was no body that suddenly transformed into Flemythal, as would be the case of Cory or the Archedemon.

 

Solas says the Evanuris were just mages. Well, they were more powerful than any mage we have seen in the post-Veil world, so that is obviously about as true as comparing an Archedemon to a Dragon, they have similarities, but they aren't the same. Solas himself, and Abelas, do not believe modern Elves to be Elves, and this has something to do with something more than their immortality and magical capabilities. The question then becomes, what were the Elvhen? Because they clearly aren't Elves (as we know them, humans with pointy ears and slight builds), and they clearly don't exist with the Veil up except in rare circumstances.

 

So, Solas says the Evanuris are powerful, Elvhen, mages. So, Mythal's power comes from 1) whatever the hell the Elvhen were (and by that I mean, their connection to the Fade, which remains ambiguous) 2) really old (related to being powerful) 3) magical (which is like saying water is wet).

 

But that's really all we have to go on. Solas answered about as many questions as if when you asked, "why is the sky blue?" and they said, "because." 

[Mlady]

What Flemeth did in DA2 to come back to life is actually nothing like what Corypheus or the Archedemons do. Flemeth gave Hawke an amulet, said amulet was placed upon an altar of Mythal in a ritual conducted by an elf (Merrill), and her Flemeth body, not just Mythal spirit, materialized (either teleportation or rebirth, depending on Warden choice in Origins). What she did is actually more akin to random things done in the setting where we do some ritual and summon a demon. There was no body that suddenly transformed into Flemythal, as would be the case of Cory or the Archedemon.

 

Solas says the Evanuris were just mages. Well, they were more powerful than any mage we have seen in the post-Veil world, so that is obviously about as true as comparing an Archedemon to a Dragon, they have similarities, but they aren't the same. Solas himself, and Abelas, do not believe modern Elves to be Elves, and this has something to do with something more than their immortality and magical capabilities. The question then becomes, what were the Elvhen? Because they clearly aren't Elves (as we know them, humans with pointy ears and slight builds), and they clearly don't exist with the Veil up except in rare circumstances.

 

So, Solas says the Evanuris are powerful, Elvhen, mages. So, Mythal's power comes from 1) whatever the hell the Elvhen were (and by that I mean, their connection to the Fade, which remains ambiguous) 2) really old (related to being powerful) 3) magical (which is like saying water is wet).

 

But that's really all we have to go on. Solas answered about as many questions as if when you asked, "why is the sky blue?" and they said, "because." 

 

We know what she did in DA2 was not body hopping, just a backup plan. There is no doubt her body is gone now and spirit in Solas, but unlike Cory, he won't turn into her. The Blight makes things a bit more like regenerating than taking over a host. Blighted always means bad, so Cory's is the bad version of something that the Evanuris (who could turn into dragons) most likely did. People can argue, but Flemeth was willingly giving her spirit to Solas, not forced.

 

Cole said that Cory had changed bodies so much he wasn't who he was anymore. I wonder if you lose yourself each time you are reborn.

[Ariella]

Well, I don't think Cory and Archy needed the host's permission. They just seem to sort of spontaneously possess. Flemeth tells Morrigan that she was never in danger because the transfer (of Mythal) must be of her own free will. But then again the Cory/Archy version is the corrupted one, so...

 

Technically speaking any Blighted host with a soul *has* given permission for the host jump. In fact, the Joining is specifically designed to facilitate the jump in order to kill the Archdemon. Just nobody expected there to be a Blighted creature, with a soul, who could also jump bodies and survive the process.

 

As for the darkspawn themselves, body jump is part of their design specs. 

[Heimdall]

As far as I'm concerned, the tales are unreliable and very little of it is likely to be true.

What about Morrigan's version, the one she got from Flemeth herself?

 

Or that she seems to acknowledge the inquisitor's identical version if you use the history perk?

[Qun00]

What Flemeth did in DA2 to come back to life is actually nothing like what Corypheus or the Archedemons do. Flemeth gave Hawke an amulet, said amulet was placed upon an altar of Mythal in a ritual conducted by an elf (Merrill), and her Flemeth body, not just Mythal spirit, materialized (either teleportation or rebirth, depending on Warden choice in Origins). What she did is actually more akin to random things done in the setting where we do some ritual and summon a demon. There was no body that suddenly transformed into Flemythal, as would be the case of Cory or the Archedemon.

Solas says the Evanuris were just mages. Well, they were more powerful than any mage we have seen in the post-Veil world, so that is obviously about as true as comparing an Archedemon to a Dragon, they have similarities, but they aren't the same. Solas himself, and Abelas, do not believe modern Elves to be Elves, and this has something to do with something more than their immortality and magical capabilities. The question then becomes, what were the Elvhen? Because they clearly aren't Elves (as we know them, humans with pointy ears and slight builds), and they clearly don't exist with the Veil up except in rare circumstances.

So, Solas says the Evanuris are powerful, Elvhen, mages. So, Mythal's power comes from 1) whatever the hell the Elvhen were (and by that I mean, their connection to the Fade, which remains ambiguous) 2) really old (related to being powerful) 3) magical (which is like saying water is wet).

But that's really all we have to go on. Solas answered about as many questions as if when you asked, "why is the sky blue?" and they said, "because."

Flemeth still acknowledges modern elves. She has referred to both Merril and the Dalish Inquisitor as "one of the People".

Abelas and Solas are just supremacist jerks, ha ha.

[Bhryaen]

Corypheus most probably need permission, he has the people who he jump into under his influence/control, so it is easy to get it. Darkpsawns don't have a soul, so that's not a problem. As for Grey Wardens, now you have a very good reasons why the Archdemon auto-destruct when he tries.

 

Technically speaking any Blighted host with a soul *has* given permission for the host jump. In fact, the Joining is specifically designed to facilitate the jump in order to kill the Archdemon. Just nobody expected there to be a Blighted creature, with a soul, who could also jump bodies and survive the process.

 

As for the darkspawn themselves, body jump is part of their design specs. 

The condition of requiring hapless victims in no way means Archy/Cory needed permission- i.e., willful, conscious acceptance. There's no such interaction, and no corruption comes with an explicit agreement as such. "Technically speaking" isn't actually speaking. That they relied on using "soul-less" or otherwise unresisting corrupted sorts in no way means either one asked a darkspawn or corrupted templar, "So, Joe, just wondering- by the way, I like your tie, good choice- um, would you be willing for me to basically erupt back into life through ripping your body into my own shape? Yes, you'd be obliterated in the process- probably painfully. You know the phrase 'ripping you a new-' Ah, you know it. Anyway, you don't have to give me a reply right now- just think about it." It isn't voluntary. The Wardens make themselves into unpossessible vessels that appear capable of being possessed, but, as I said above, it looks more like a "spontaneous possession." I mean, why wouldn't Archy just say, "Woh! I'm not going to fall for that wily, ol' Warden trick- particularly as that same Warden is the one that just killed me! Ya can't fool me! I'm going with that genlock over there instead, k?" But he doesn't because the process for Archy/Cory is apparently aggressive and relatively random. And it didn't look like Cory was only possessing his one pre-chosen vessel who had been groomed for the position either. He just found himself zapped to death by elfy lightning and took over the nearest hapless corrupt dude (who also had seemed a bit on the dead side). If you have to weaken someone's resistance to the point of nil before you can possess them, you're not possessing them willingly. Just ask a frat brother... or Bill Cosby...

 

And all that's in great contrast to the more subtle approach of Mythal being outright unable to transfer without a fully willing, deliberately passive recipient- not to mention the way her transfer doesn't blow up the new host's body in the process.

[BansheeOwnage]

Dead. She is dead.

After what she did in DA2 and her sending what looks like a soul through an eluvian, I don't think we should consider that a fact yet. Especially considering it wasn't just Mythal who was "resurrected', but Flemeth too.

[Mlady]

After what she did in DA2 and her sending what looks like a soul through an eluvian, I don't think we should consider that a fact yet. Especially considering it wasn't just Mythal who was "resurrected', but Flemeth too.

 

Based on the dev notes, she gave Solas her remaining life force but sent her god powers to Morrigan.

[BansheeOwnage]

Based on the dev notes, she gave Solas her remaining life force but sent her god powers to Morrigan.

Which seems sort of backwards to me, since Solas needs her powers and not her life-force. Either way, it's interesting, but the devs did say not to consider it as canon yet. *shrug*

[Mlady]

Which seems sort of backwards to me, since Solas needs her powers and not her life-force. Either way, it's interesting, but the devs did say not to consider it as canon yet. *shrug*

 

I wonder if Kieran was originally meant to be born but with so many not liking Morrigan or not wanting to see Alistair sleep with her even if it meant both the Warden and him would live, he was turned into an option? I found the whole scene in the Fade (with that disturbing blood gushing statue of Dirthamen) to be more canon than meeting her at the alter if he wasn't born.

[BansheeOwnage]

I wonder if Kieran was originally meant to be born but with so many not liking Morrigan or not wanting to see Alistair sleep with her even if it meant both the Warden and him would live, he was turned into an option? I found the whole scene in the Fade (with that disturbing blood gushing statue of Dirthamen) to be more canon than meeting her at the alter if he wasn't born.

I don't know if it was originally not a choice, but it does seem like the canon "preferred" option. I get the impression with a few choices that more effort was put into them because the devs liked that choice. Anyway, you've reminded me that I have yet to even see that outcome, ha! I've only had world-states with my Warden alive. Do you have a video of it?

 

Edit: Also yes, the statue (and entire location) is creepy. Red lyrium, blood-gushing statue, ritual blood-glyphs on the ground...

[Mlady]

I don't know if it was originally not a choice, but it does seem like the canon "preferred" option. I get the impression with a few choices that more effort was put into them because the devs liked that choice. Anyway, you've reminded me that I have yet to even see that outcome, ha! I've only had world-states with my Warden alive. Do you have a video of it?

 

Edit: Also yes, the statue (and entire location) is creepy. Red lyrium, blood-gushing statue, ritual blood-glyphs on the ground...

 

You mean the one at the altar? It was my first because I hadn't used the Keep yet. Here's a vid I found.

 

[jedidotflow]

We really don't.

Carrying a fragment of another person's life energy isn't the same thing as literally being the latter. Flemeth isn't Mythal anymore than Kieran is Urthemiel.

Even if we accept that Flemeth has at least become Mythal, that doesn't tell us what she originally was.

Rather than answering this old question the fans had about the character, all this big reveal does is answering another we'd never asked.

 

All of this would be true if Flemeth herself hadn't said she and Mythal were one. And she does. /thread

[leaguer of one]

After what she did in DA2 and her sending what looks like a soul through an eluvian, I don't think we should consider that a fact yet. Especially considering it wasn't just Mythal who was "resurrected', but Flemeth too.

That's not her soul. That's for Morrigan. Torch has been passed.

[actionhero112]

 Flemeth is a nutty old bat.

[ModernAcademic]

We really don't.

Carrying a fragment of another person's life energy isn't the same thing as literally being the latter. Flemeth isn't Mythal anymore than Kieran is Urthemiel.

Even if we accept that Flemeth has at least become Mythal, that doesn't tell us what she originally was.

Rather than answering this old question the fans had about the character, all this big reveal does is answering another we'd never asked.

 

Flemeth sounds like a Vessel, that carried a piece of soul that belonged to an Evanuris.

 

The other piece was probably attached to a dragon or another powerful creature, thus giving her effective immortality. (speculation)

 

As for the woman herself, we only know what Chasind legends have to tell about her. The real Flemeth in itself existed in a time when Thedas was a primitive land, without nations.

[Ariella]

The condition of requiring hapless victims in no way means Archy/Cory needed permission- i.e., willful, conscious acceptance. There's no such interaction, and no corruption comes with an explicit agreement as such.

First, we've never seen if ghouls are exempt or not from Archdemon body possession. Other than that, they are the only potentially hapless victims. Darkspawn, with the exception of those experimented on by the Architect; have never shown free will, thus "permission" is meaningless, they are soulless vessels, nothing more. Grey Wardens specifically undertake the Joining with the intent that they may have to be possessed in order to slay an archdemon.

Technically speaking, that's permission. It's willful acceptance of a condition that may result in possession.

[InfinitePaths]

You mean the one at the altar? It was my first because I hadn't used the Keep yet. Here's a vid I found.

 

 

"We few who travel far, call to me and I will come."

 

Is that an anagram? Can someone solve that if it is.

[BansheeOwnage]

You mean the one at the altar? It was my first because I hadn't used the Keep yet. Here's a vid I found.

 

Thanks! You're right. This scene definitely feels like an alternate, and not just because I saw the other first. Most of the lines are reused, but they seem to fit the other scene better in tone etc. Oh well.

 

That's not her soul. That's for Morrigan. Torch has been passed.

I specifically said "what looks like a soul" because it is the same ingame model as the other "souls". It may be one, or something else.

[Donk]

I know what she is.. she's a NILF (nanna I'd like to f*ck)

 

[Aren]

Abomination! I tell you.

Whoever took inside  others personality with any kind of magic muffin is an abomination.

Morrigan and the Inquisitor who drunk from the well of sorrow are abominations too (those inside the well are persons will+Mythal).

Fragment of one person is enough to influence and change you forever,especially if is the one of an ancient enavuris.