168 réponses à ce sujet

[Yaroub]

Am not sure about blood magic, but 99.99% of blood mages are wackos.

[renfrees]

All that proves it that blood magic is a tool that can easily be misused. No one is contesting that.

Also note my counterexample. Good and evil lies in people (defined as "intelligent agent with the ability to make decisions based on ethics") and their actions, and nowhere else.

It's a tool that offers a possibilities and tempts people to go further than would be possible with normal means. How many were saying: "If only I could..."? Well, blood magic (and demons that reach through the weakened Veil) often offers that step at a cost. And like any power, it's addictive.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Am not sure about blood magic, but 99.99% of blood mages are wackos.

 

That's probably because most of those wacko's were either desperate (and insane) apostates or Tevinter magisters, who with only a couple exceptions are all evil.  

[TevinterSupremacist]

No, blood magic is totally awesome, safe if you're not dumb and definitely not evil.

 

Trust me, I'm an objective analyst with no personal interest in the matter.

 

Blood magic is cool.

 

I promise.

[Ieldra]

No, blood magic is totally awesome, safe if you're not dumb and definitely not evil.

 

Trust me, I'm an objective analyst with no personal interest in the matter.

 

Blood magic is cool.

 

I promise.

Perfectly convincing, coming from someone with a name like yours

 

Having said that, it has some rather useful attributes:

(1) Templars have trouble countering it (that alone almost elevates it to awesomeness)

(2) It makes you more independent - where others use lyrium to increase the power of their spells, you only need yourself - and perhaps a little more food than other people.

[renfrees]

Perfectly convincing, coming from someone with a name like yours

 

Having said that, it has some rather useful attributes:

(1) Templars have trouble countering it (that alone almost elevates it to awesomeness)

(2) It makes you more independent - where others use lyrium to increase the power of their spells, you only need yourself - and perhaps a little more food than other people.

(2) ...or a little more people than others

[Ieldra]

(2) ...or a little more people than others

Sure, but then you're not independent anymore. Sort of defeats the purpose from my point of view.  But then, the sort of power I could never have enough of is not one for ruling over others, but for keeping others away.

[Qun00]

I find the word "misuse" to be very inadequate.

There isn't a positive way to inflict pain and death on unwilling participants or consorting with beings that will (demons).

Of course, there are exceptions like the Joining and phylacteries, but you'll note that these are done by non-mages.

Among the blood mages themselves, demon pacts and human sacrifices still are the most common form of this practice.

[Ieldra]

Things like the Joining, phylacteries and the use of your own blood are nothing but exceptions.

Among blood mages, the most common use still is the pact with demons and performing human sacrifices.

If you make blood magic a crime, of course most of those who still use it will be the kind of people who aren't afraid to break the law. These wouldn't go away if you lift the ban, but quite likely the picture would become more balanced. That's not necessarily a justification for lifting the ban, but it means that you can't use these numbers in a debate, except to show that blood magic is often misused. And yet again, nobody is contesting that.

[SentinelMacDeath]

I think the problem with blood magic is it's own power source. How much blood is needed for the task at hand. Your own body can give only so much before you weaken yourself and this is where sacrifices come in. Power is probably the real evil here. Not many can handle having it.

[renfrees]

If you overuse lyrium to power your spells, the side effect is felt by you only. The caster can take only so much lyrium before the body will give out. If you overuse blood magic - people end up on the altars. There is no limit so long as the blood is flowing.

[Ieldra]

If you overuse lyrium to power your spells, the side effect is felt by you only. The caster can take only so much lyrium before the body will give out. If you overuse blood magic - people end up on the altars. There is no limit so long as the blood is flowing.

So it's more dangerous to people apart from the caster. Again, nobody is contesting that. "Dangerous" and "easy to misuse" are still different from "evil". Forget it, renfrees, you're not going to win this. The only kind of tool you could call evil with some kind of justification is one that can't be used for anything but evil, and I'd contest even that as a matter of principle since evil always lies in the actions of people.

[renfrees]

So it's more dangerous to people apart from the caster. Again, nobody is contesting that. "Dangerous" and "easy to misuse" are still different from "evil". Forget it, renfrees, you're not going to win this. The only kind of tool you could call evil with some kind of justification is one that can't be used for anything but evil, and I'd contest even that as a matter of principle since evil always lies in the actions of people.

Well, at least this fandom isn't painting slavery as the grey area. Yet A few more charming Dorians with their justifications for it and I'm afraid it will. That's the fandom's logic on morality - if your fave says it's okay, perhaps it's not so bad.

[Dancing_Dolphin]

Blood magic has never been used to achieve a good end without severe repurcussions. Consider that.

Indeed. Blood magic is a terrible bargain, but if one is cornered and about to lose everything they care about in the world I can understand using it.

[Zana]

Magic is power.  Blood magic is simply more power.  Power attracts corrupt.  Large amounts of power will attract those who are highly corrupt.

 

In it's own, blood magic need not be evil, but those desiring it are more likely to be corrupt and use it for evil purposes.

[Dabrikishaw]

Blood Magic is "evil magic" because writers decided it is. The Dark Side is the "Evil Force" because George Lucas decided it to be. why do people argue with writers about Lore?

 

 

EDIT: In fact outside the protagonist and companions has there ever been a truly sane Blood Magic user? that wasn't for questionably moral reason?

Pretty much this.

[The Baconer]

Well, at least this fandom isn't painting slavery as the grey area.

 

The Qun has a lot of fans.

[Iakus]

"Evil" kinda needs free will to exist, just as "good does.

 

So as such blood magic isn't "evil"  But it is "dark".

 

It runs of the life force of others, and is more powerful when pain in involved.  So yeah, if you're willing to use it on yourself or a willing blood battery, it's not what one would call "evil"

 

But as noted, that only gets you so far.  For the really fun stuff, you need sacrifices.  Torturing people to death for their blood and life.  

 

Then there are side effects.  Blood magic with all the pain and death involved, weakens the Veil.  Often it involves demon summoning, since they hold a lot of knowledge about blood magic (and often they are the ones who teach it to begin with)  Then we get to the whole mind-control aspects of it, which is a slippery slope to the Dark Side right there.  And as Last FLight demonstrated, blood magic has other side effects that are difficult to predict or even understand.

 

SO in the end, blood magic is a powerful, but dangerous tool.  Its a gift from demons, which means it has a tendency to backfire on the users and tempt them down dark, and yes "evil" paths.

[Wahed89]

I think it leads to evil for the most part. Something is only really evil if it's affecting someone other than yourself in a negative way and you're fine with that consequence. The problem is that the things you can't do with normal magic, and therefore you use blood magic, probably need a good amount of blood.

 

I just think that, though the whole "blame the user not the tool" does make sense, ultimately in real life the tool is still not good because of the chances of abuse. I almost think of it in the way drug laws work. Some spells might only affect yourself, your own blood, that's the small non-deadly drugs that are just bad for you. But some require the blood of others, like the class A drugs that require a lot of connected criminal activity (gang culture and crime, murder, trafficking, animal abuse etc). So then it follows that the smaller spells affecting only yourself can be seen as "gateway" spells, you become too desensitised to the cost and the value of blood quickly cheapens. This in the same way the minor drugs allegedly act as a gateway to the more dangerous stuff.

 

So it's not evil in of itself. But I do think it's a footstep to evil thoughts and activity and that, if made legal in the DA universe, there should be strict laws about who can use it and when

 

I think any kind of blood magic that uses the blood of the unwilling or those unable to consent is evil though, whatever the outcome.

[renfrees]

It runs of the life force of others, and is more powerful when pain in involved.  So yeah, if you're willing to use it on yourself or a willing blood battery, it's not what one would call "evil"

 

*snip*

Can a slave be called willing participant if he's not saying "no", if he's not screaming and kicking upon seeing a sacrificial knife?

[BansheeOwnage]

New class for next DA4 please. Dual fork wielder!

Well, we got the Boon of the Spoon, so you never know!

 

And again we come to the example of Quentin. Would he have been a madman without blood magic? Probably. Would he have kidnapped and killed those women if all he had at his disposal was a fork (or even a sword)? Not likely, since he wasn't just mindlessly killing them for the kicks. A fork or a sword doesn't allow you to reanimate dead, summon demons to get the upper hand or rip the Veil.

Like I said before, you can go down this road until you ask whether people should be allowed to have fists, since they can kill people. Just because something can be misused and is more effective than something else at being misused doesn't mean it's evil.

[renfrees]

Like I said before, you can go down this road until you ask whether people should be allowed to have fists, since they can kill people. Just because something can be misused and is more effective than something else at being misused doesn't mean it's evil.

In DA:O it’s said that if you use blood magic a lot, you develop wounds that don’t heal. You get issues with clotting as well, and can start to bleed from the gums, eyes etc. Because none of this happens to Merrill or PC, blood magic must be good.

It’s inherently violent as well, and the mage’s will is literally the weapon of choice. There’s a difference between killing someone with a gun from across the room and strangling them to death. If they’re reaching inside others and turning their own blood against them a la Jowan…if there’s a more intimate way of killing, I can’t think of it. That in itself is enough to **** a person up. But okay.

 

Incidentally, it’s basically the same argument put forward to legalise drugs. "If it only hurts me…" Sure, but it never stays there. It impairs your ability to function (like blood magic) which inevitably means that you have to encroach on others to survive. It creates a vicious cycle that obliterates empathy, generates entitlement and finally desperation. It causes ppl to dehumanise others, leading to skyrocketing incidences of social problems and that's why it’s illegal.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Couldn't we just say that mind control, demon summoning and involuntary human sacrifice especially is usually evil?  

 

Cutting yourself to shoot magical torrents of blood or empowering your spells on the other hand is just another weapon and/or tool. A really crappy, dangerous and possibly suicidal tool, but still just a tool...

 

A tool that only the most intelligent, powerful and vetted of mages (so not Jowan) can ever be allowed to use...

 

And only under the strictest of conditions...

 

And very far way from the any major centers (so not Merrill in Kirkwall) that could be endangered by your experiments...

 

And with a group of lyrium-users or anti-magic specialized mages to kill you if something goes wrong...

 

So, yeah, blood magic is totally just a tool. Just like nuclear reactors are just a tool. It just needs a couple many parameters to keep everything safe for the user and everyone else. 

[MisterJB]

 

Given that The World of Thedas extablished that the strenght of blood magic depends on just how violent and painful the spilling of the blood was, I would say that blood magic itself is, by its very nature, wrong and it encourages torture and human sacrifice.

 

Which doesn't mean it can't be used for good purposes.

[The Baconer]

Given that The World of Thedas extablished that the strenght of blood magic depends on just how violent and painful the spilling of the blood was, [...]

 

The canon status of this is... questionable.