168 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

No. It's just has way too much conflict with it to justify normal use.

[Ieldra]

Restricting blood magic to those in power isn't exactly the best idea, ComedicSociopathy. The result of your setup would be that those in power have their pet blood mages while everyone else will still get killed for it.

 

Also, you drastically overstate the danger of blood magic that doesn't involve mind control, human sacrifice and demon summoning. Upgrading a regular spell with your own blood is no more problematic than using a bigger gun rather than a smaller one, something also achieveable with lyrium. Of course those in power will want people to believe it's *all* much more problematic, because they have a vested interest in monopolizing power.

 

Restricting knowledge tends not to work. The most likely result is that it ends up exactly in the hands of those you don't want to have it, while everyone else stays defenseless because they're afraid to break the law and learn to defend themselves - or fall into the hands of demons because they aren't allowed to learn from books. I say let everyone learn, and let those of goodwill help to fight those who use it for evil purposes. If I were a mage in Thedas, I would be honored to join such a force, but at the same time, in the face of forbidden knowledge I'd be severely tempted to call on a demon just to spite those in power, at the risk of my life and sanity. 

[Medhia_Nox]

Since people have this weird fixation with "evil" as a term.  Here's what blood magic is to me. 

 

It is a power source by which magic can be performed that requires the use of your blood to perform minor to middling magical feats.  Further magical feats require the use of a non-animal sacrifice (any use of animals as such a sacrifice has been, to my knowledge, totally unexplored in DA), while the greatest uses of blood magic require more than one such sacrifice.  While using this power source you not only increasingly weaken the Fade, but also become a greater beacon to demons who, as reported via novels, go into a kind of frenzy around it. 

 

The powers unique to blood magic are the usual violent fare, but also include the ability to override the free will of others both in a short and long term basis.  It can, though unsuccessfully to date, be used to "reprogram" a person as seen with the attempt of certain magisters and their sons.

For me - blood magic is for the weak who cannot do natural magic (that is, lyrium based magic) or the deranged who want to consort with demons to take over other people's minds.  At it's best - it is undesirable and embarrassing to have to work blood magic (because, like Jowan, you're an incompetent real mage) and at it's worst - it's worthy of Tranquility.  I am not interested really in the moral high ground of a blood mage's arguments after they've been enslaving other people's minds. 

 

EDIT:  Let us also not forget the recent addition that "pain" is a requirement to make blood magic even more potent.

[renfrees]

Restricting blood magic to those in power isn't exactly the best idea, ComedicSociopathy. The result of your setup would be that those in power have their pet blood mages while everyone else will still get killed for it.

 

Also, you drastically overstate the danger of blood magic that doesn't involve mind control, human sacrifice and demon summoning. Upgrading a regular spell with your own blood is no more problematic than using a bigger gun rather than a smaller one, something also achieveable with lyrium. Of course those in power will want people to believe it's *all* much more problematic, because they have a vested interest in monopolizing power.

 

Restricting knowledge tends not to work. The most likely result is that it ends up exactly in the hands of those you don't want to have it, while everyone else stays defenseless because they're afraid to break the law and learn to defend themselves - or fall into the hands of demons because they aren't allowed to learn from books. I say let everyone learn, and let those of goodwill help to fight those who use it for evil purposes. If I were a mage in Thedas, I would be honored to join such a force, but at the same time, in the face of forbidden knowledge I'd be severely tempted to call on a demon just to spite those in power, at the risk of my life and sanity. 

Yeah, let everyone learn how to make explosives and hope they will use it to split the rocks, not to blow offending neighbours.

[Ieldra]

Yeah, let everyone learn how to make explosives and hope they will use it to split the rocks, not to blow offending neighbours.

The thing is, everyone can easily find out how to make explosives nowadays. The world still exists, and the only thing that's grown worse - on a global scale - in the last thirty years is the number of people who populate the Earth and the consequences of that. The great majority of people isn't murderous as long as they're living in a somewhat stable social environment - and no matter how bad things appear, nations on Thedas are such enviroments, as a rule.

[Daerog]

Andraste said it was bad. So, it's bad.

 

It is also only used by weak, crazy, and/or evil mages. One only resorts to it if they are not strong enough, are just insane and don't care about consequences, or are just evil and will do anything for power.

[Ieldra]

For me - blood magic is for the weak who cannot do natural magic (that is, lyrium based magic) or the deranged who want to consort with demons to take over other people's minds.  At it's best - it is undesirable and embarrassing to have to work blood magic (because, like Jowan, you're an incompetent real mage) and at it's worst - it's worthy of Tranquility.  I am not interested really in the moral high ground of a blood mage's arguments after they've been enslaving other people's minds.

Using blood magic to augment your spells because you lack lyrium doesn't make you weak, incompetent or deranged.

[Ieldra]

Andraste said it was bad. So, it's bad.

She didn't. She said - if you believe that account - that using magic to harm or enslave others is bad (more or less, I don't recall the exact phrasing). Blood magic doesn't always do that, so it's not always bad. Regular magic sometimes does it, so it's sometimes bad.

Anyway, I would not accept this even she said it because it's an argument from authority and as such, a fallacy.

[Steelcan]

She didn't. She said - if you believe that account - that using magic to harm or enslave others is bad (more or less, I don't recall the exact phrasing). Blood magic doesn't always do that, so it's not always bad. Regular magic sometimes does it, so it's sometimes bad.

Anyway, I would not accept this even she said it because it's an argument from authority and as such, a fallacy.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that Andraste is indeed the Bride of the Maker and her Chant is indeed his work.

 

Is the argument from authority then wrong?  In a setting where religious authority far outweighs that of secular authority such a position needs to be entertained.

[TevinterSupremacist]

Andraste said it was bad. So, it's bad.

 

Andraste is severely overrated.

[actionhero112]

Inherently? No.

 

Is there that many good uses for controlling demons, mind control and boiling people's blood? No.

 

The arguably most moral use of blood magic is using it to fuel powerful spells instead of lyrium. However it rarely seems to stop there and the entirety of Blood Mages in this series (beyond your pc) have negative consequences for using it. Also, for real, just use the goddamn lyrium. 

 

Usage of the school also attracts demons, which has it's own ill effects. 

 

You'll always get the people who are like, "Blood magic isn't bad man, it's just misunderstood. I love being dark mysterious and edgy. Read my poetry where I rhyme dark with dark"

 

But forreal, the school's unsafe. Better for everyone if people just stopped using it. 

[FemShem]

since it's a video game and not real...no.

Plus Merrill was my 3rd fav Bioware gf...really cute for a BM...

And my Humorous F/Hawke did not feel evil as a BM though the dialogue was a bit dicey and I had a bit of an issue with suspension of disbelief I definitely did NOT have with rogue or warrior Hawke.

Shrug.

[Wulfram]

The thing is, everyone can easily find out how to make explosives nowadays. The world still exists, and the only thing that's grown worse - on a global scale - in the last thirty years is the number of people who populate the Earth and the consequences of that. The great majority of people isn't murderous as long as they're living in a somewhat stable social environment - and no matter how bad things appear, nations on Thedas are such enviroments, as a rule.

By and large the problem with magic in Thedas is that everyone can't easily work out how to do magic. Which creates a power imbalance that can lead to abuse. Hence Tevinter. If Magic was universal it would eliminate a lot of that sort of problem.

Of course this is undermined by the sense the games tend to give that mages aren't all that much more powerful than warriors.

(Another problem is that occasionally mages seem to find things that are more equivalent to nukes than conventional explosives. And that's not a problem that'd be solved by letting everyone have their own nukes if they want them. Plus there's the whole "get possessed, go crazy" thing)

[Daerog]

She didn't. She said - if you believe that account - that using magic to harm or enslave others is bad (more or less, I don't recall the exact phrasing). Blood magic doesn't always do that, so it's not always bad. Regular magic sometimes does it, so it's sometimes bad.

Anyway, I would not accept this even she said it because it's an argument from authority and as such, a fallacy.

 

Blood magic is fueled by harm. The greater the harm, the greater the potency. That is why the Seven sacrificed slaves rather than just draining their blood (it would be better to let the slaves live, otherwise, to have a constant source of blood for later). By its nature, blood magic comes from harm. Harm comes first, then the blood magic. This is unlike other attacks where the attack is first and the harm comes later.

 

So, if it is true that those who use magic for unprovoked harm are wrong, then blood magic is wrong... maybe using it in battle could be argued as a loop hole to it, but that is just focusing on the letter of the law rather than the purpose/spirit of it.

 

Also, as Steelcan mentioned, if Andraste is the Maker's prophet (whether or not she is the Bride), and what she said is what the Maker commands/says, then that is a truth to the reality of the world whether or not one can argue its case. It didn't sound like she was just listing rules of proper conduct, she was claiming a moral law... maybe, they don't go into that much of the Chant and such, just snippets with some background info on some snippets...

[The Baconer]

But I'm gonna need an efficient way to find Qunari and Solas' spies.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ieldra:  Regardless of the fact you're merely arguing with my opinion. 

 

The amount of mana a mage possesses is based on with Willpower in game.  This can have an easy, and direct, analogue to the lore wherein a greater mental fortitude can both acquire and maintain a greater reservoir of personal mana. 

 

1)  If you're using it because you're personal mental fortitude is insufficient for your mana "need" and you don't possess the ability to acquire said fortitude by whatever means... then yes, to me, you are a lesser mage.  That the mage doesn't know his/her own limitations - like a wise person does - does not make me think any higher of that mage.

 

2)  If you're using it to throw a stronger fireball (no in game, and to my knowledge story, analogues exist) - then again - we see in the Ferelden tower that a spells power IS directly related to one's ability (the scenes in the library).  Needing blood magic to throw something stronger does suggest - to me - that the mage is incapable of producing the same effect without it.   For me, this also adds to a deranged mind.  I'm not a fan of power-mongers.  They are, by nature, weak people.

 

But I didn't say the lack of lyrium makes a mage deranged in my view.  It's the grab for power as the mage moves from self to other (but of course all the "good" blood mages would never be tempted!) that I find deranged (and, truth be told, pathetic).

 

But again... we're arguing my opinion - which is, ultimately, not a relevant basis for said argument.  I've played the same games you have - that my conclusions are different does not make me wrong simply because your ambition dictates otherwise.

[Lumix19]

Blood magic is fueled by harm. The greater the harm, the greater the potency. That is why the Seven sacrificed slaves rather than just draining their blood (it would be better to let the slaves live, otherwise, to have a constant source of blood for later). By its nature, blood magic comes from harm. Harm comes first, then the blood magic. This is unlike other attacks where the attack is first and the harm comes later.
 
So, if it is true that those who use magic for unprovoked harm are wrong, then blood magic is wrong... maybe using it in battle could be argued as a loop hole to it, but that is just focusing on the letter of the law rather than the purpose/spirit of it.
 
Also, as Steelcan mentioned, if Andraste is the Maker's prophet (whether or not she is the Bride), and what she said is what the Maker commands/says, then that is a truth to the reality of the world whether or not one can argue its case. It didn't sound like she was just listing rules of proper conduct, she was claiming a moral law... maybe, they don't go into that much of the Chant and such, just snippets with some background info on some snippets...

She never actually explicitly mentions Blood Magic though, she states

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.

That's pretty ambiguous. And the next bit "those who do harm...", doesn't explicitly mention blood magic either. And where does the ability to use blood magic through self-harm come in?

[Wulfram]

The amount of mana a mage possesses is based on with Willpower in game.

Not any more

[Lumix19]

@Ieldra: Regardless of the fact you're merely arguing with my opinion.

The amount of mana a mage possesses is based on with Willpower in game. This can have an easy, and direct, analogue to the lore wherein a greater mental fortitude can both acquire and maintain a greater reservoir of personal mana.

1) If you're using it because you're personal mental fortitude is insufficient for your mana "need" and you don't possess the ability to acquire said fortitude by whatever means... then yes, to me, you are a lesser mage. That the mage doesn't know his/her own limitations - like a wise person does - does not make me think any higher of that mage.

2) If you're using it to throw a stronger fireball (no in game, and to my knowledge story, analogues exist) - then again - we see in the Ferelden tower that a spells power IS directly related to one's ability (the scenes in the library). Needing blood magic to throw something stronger does suggest - to me - that the mage is incapable of producing the same effect without it. For me, this also adds to a deranged mind. I'm not a fan of power-mongers. They are, by nature, weak people.

But I didn't say the lack of lyrium makes a mage deranged in my view. It's the grab for power as the mage moves from self to other (but of course all the "good" blood mages would never be tempted!) that I find deranged (and, truth be told, pathetic).

But again... we're arguing my opinion - which is, ultimately, not a relevant basis for said argument. I've played the same games you have - that my conclusions are different does not make me wrong simply because your ambition dictates otherwise.

I would just point out that those needn't be the only reasons. We know that some believe that blood magic is more tied to the physical and doesn't rely on favors from spirits which mana does.

[Marshal Moriarty]

Its unwholesome and unpalatable image, fuels the whole 'Mages are suspicious and constantly up to no good' view that regular people have of magic. Couple with the fact that practioners of this art are always from groups that are already viewed with suspicion (Elves of all kinds, Tevinters, Hedge Witch/wizard apostates, criminals etc), this marginalizes them and a lack of knowledge/contact will always breed suspicion and paranoia about what they are up to.

 

In the simplest terms, no it is not evil. In practical terms, in the realities of modern Thedas and the views that most Southerners have on the issue, it will always be considered so. The problem is that throughout history, there are very few examples you could make of Blood Magic being used, that the common man would either understand or would be willing to accept was a positive thing. It will always seem like meddling with the natural order, even moreso than he thinks magic in general already does.

 

Perception is  powerful thing, and whilst the stigma surrounding blood magic persists, it will never be accepted by the majority. Ironically, the Grey Warden Joining is probably the most successful and important use of Blood Magic currently in consistent use that serves the public good. But the Wardens would be very reluctant to ever reveal that, precisely because of the unwholesome and blaspemous image it would give people of them, and they strive very hard to avoid such attention.

 

So it remains what it is - a power that most don't accept should exist, but which those in the know, realize is always an option 'when needed'. The defintiion of what 'when needed' means varies according to every individual user. It has threatened world peace many times, it has saved the world many times. The same can be said of many tools, weapons and tactics.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Restricting blood magic to those in power isn't exactly the best idea, ComedicSociopathy. The result of your setup would be that those in power have their pet blood mages while everyone else will still get killed for it.

 

When I said powerful my meaning wasn't about those in power or have political or legitimate power, like say Celene. I was taking about mages who are are incredibly strong-willed and can turn demons into mince-meat. 

 

Also, you drastically overstate the danger of blood magic that doesn't involve mind control, human sacrifice and demon summoning. Upgrading a regular spell with your own blood is no more problematic than using a bigger gun rather than a smaller one, something also achieveable with lyrium. Of course those in power will want people to believe it's *all* much more problematic, because they have a vested interest in monopolizing power.

 

Using a bigger gun requires that I bleed all over the place and drain my own life force to fire it?

 

I kid, but really, the comparison here doesn't really work in my opinion. That said, you are right that those in power could use a ban on mind control, human sacrifice and demon summoning blood magic to their advantage. Of course, we really don't see that happening outside of Tevinter on any significant scale. So maybe a blood magic monopoly won't happen in Southern Thedas because of the strong cultural stigma against it. 

 

 

Restricting knowledge tends not to work. The most likely result is that it ends up exactly in the hands of those you don't want to have it, while everyone else stays defenseless because they're afraid to break the law and learn to defend themselves - or fall into the hands of demons because they aren't allowed to learn from books. I say let everyone learn, and let those of goodwill help to fight those who use it for evil purposes. If I were a mage in Thedas, I would be honored to join such a force, but at the same time, in the face of forbidden knowledge I'd be severely tempted to call on a demon just to spite those in power, at the risk of my life and sanity. 

 

1. Restricting knowledge is a very icky idea to me. I really, really hate the narrative that there are things that man was never meant to know, especially when that judgement call is made by my fellow man. But even I have to realize that there are things I probably shouldn't know or learn. Like mind control. If I had that kind of ability... bad thing things would probably happen. Very bad and very gross things. Anyways, my point is that their some abilities that are far to easy to abuse and to me blood magic has powers that make every other school of magic look like petty magic tricks. Mind control is to me is evil or close to it and anyone who values freedom in any true sense could see why. 

 

2. The Litany of Adralla could probably solve that problem. That and counter-magic.  

 

3. Anyone? Really? You have at least admit that having some of psych evaluation or tests of willpower should be implemented to make sure that only the best are allowed to learn it. Will their be rebels who try to break the rules? Sure. But the alternative seems worst to me. 

 

4. Will that would be a stupid (sorry) and childish thing to do. I mean, you're really going to risk all that just to stick it to the Man and gain some knowledge from a creature that literally embodies deceit. I'd just wear all black and listen to angsty bard songs to show my spite. 

[TammieAZ]

Is blood magic evil?

 

 

That depends ..

Can blood magic restore an arm? 

[Crimson Vanguard]

Also remember that Reaver is a form of Blood Magic too.

[jedidotflow]

Evil or not, blood magic is emo.

[Daerog]

She never actually explicitly mentions Blood Magic though, she states

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.

That's pretty ambiguous. And the next bit "those who do harm...", doesn't explicitly mention blood magic either. And where does the ability to use blood magic through self-harm come in?

 

I don't think it needs to be stated specifically.

 

I think blight magic would fall into this category as well, since it corrupts the user and does harm to them. Fade magic, in itself, doesn't do harm. Blood and blight magic, no matter its use, does harm. There may be other magics out there that also fall into this category that haven't been revealed. So, why list them out, especially if they haven't been discovered/invented at this time, when it can just be generally stated? If she stated specifically, that could be interpreted to mean that blight magic is okay since it isn't stated specifically, and no one knew until The Calling novel that non-darkspawn could use blight magic.

 

Purposefully harming one's self isn't a good thing either.

 

 

Edit: If a mage is so weak that they can't do something that the mage believes must be done, like saving an orphanage or something, then that mage could resort to blood magic out of desperation. Saving the children is a good thing, but that doesn't make the harm done by the mage a good thing. The good may overshadow the bad, but the mage should strive to not have to resort to harming someone (even one's self) in order to do good. It's an end justifies (or doesn't justify) the means kind of thing.

 

Edit2: Just to emphasize, blood magic requires harm. It thrives on harm and pain. The greater the suffering, the greater the magic. I don't think that is a magical school that needs to be advanced or developed.