168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Most, people, yes, end up doing "bad stuff" with it.  Not at first, perhaps.  But in time, the misuse of blood magic seems to grow. And even when it is used for a "good" cause, things seem to backfire.  Look at Isseya, Avernus, Lady Harriman.

What do you expect if it's something we're supposed to see as evil without thinking about it?  
 

Blood magic is clearly far more than "simple magic augmentation.  That barely scratches the surface. It is something different. It's a different kind of magic altogether, Something darker.  We have no idea where the power comes from, just what fuels it.  It's extremely dangerous and destructive, It has side effects we can't begin to predict.  Spirits loathe it and demons teach it.  I'd say it's something to be kept at arm's length whenever possible.

Except, you know, it isn't. Fundamentally different I mean. You can augment spells with it just as you can with lyrium, so it's actually mostly the same as other magic, with a few exceptions. We know as much about where its power comes from as we do about magic in general - mages can draw power from the Fade, or from blood, beyond that the internal workings of magic are unknown - and anyway, being unknown does not justify condemnation, it just means you have to be careful. I have seen no general loathing by non-demonic spirits of blood magic as such - all examples involved human sacrifice. And the claim about "side effects we can't predict....", LOL, that's nonsensical - if you don't know how do you know it's bad? How can you even assert the existence of side effects if you don't know them?

I'd say people's discomfort with the idea - and the fact that human sacrifice and mind-control are possible - lets them seek for more pitfalls than there are. The only thing I'll concede it that it appears to attract demons, and even that makes little sense since you don't even need to contact the Fade for blood magic. This whole setup really has all the hallmarks of a badly-planned contrivance - you know, similar to when they let DA2's act 3 drown in a flood of insane mages because in their tests, too many people sided with the templars, and overlooked that the injustice of the Annullment - killing mages wholesale, most of them IN the circle while the actual atrocities took place outside - was too fundamental to be countered by mere numbers.

I agree in one thing: blood magic is not the first option you should consider to power your spells, and actually, anyone sane would avoid it except if there was no other option, simply because nobody wants to harm themselves for no important reason. Assuming you're not the type for human sacrifice, anyway, but I don't think we need to talk about those.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

If one is just talking about Fade magic, sure.

 

Blood magic, unlike normal tools (or Fade magic), requires harm and is rooted in pain and death.

 

It's like saying that buying clothes made by slaves in sweat shops is not that bad because it is just clothes and buying clothes is not evil. It may not be from that bad of a sweat shop, but it's still a sweat shop. Those clothes can keep people warm and allow people to survive a cold winter... but they are still made by slaves in a sweat shop...

 

It's more the context of blood magic that makes people claim it is evil/bad.

This is a good point. I need to rethink this.

[Ieldra]

If one is just talking about Fade magic, sure.
 
Blood magic, unlike normal tools (or Fade magic), requires harm and is rooted in pain and death.
 
It's like saying that buying clothes made by slaves in sweat shops is not that bad because it is just clothes and buying clothes is not evil. It may not be from that bad of a sweat shop, but it's still a sweat shop. Those clothes can keep people warm and allow people to survive a cold winter... but they are still made by slaves in a sweat shop...
 
It's more the context of blood magic that makes people claim it is evil/bad.

The analogy is flawed. It's more akin to saying that buying clothes imported from East Asia is bad because most of the clothes imported from there are made in sweat shops (just an example, I'm not actually claiming this), discounting the possibility that someone may actually know what they're buying in some more detail.

And it's just like those who claim it's evil to overlook the rather fundamental difference between human sacrifice and injuring yourself.

[Daerog]

Injuring yourself on purpose is still not a good thing. I can understand people making themselves suffer in order to do a good, but the suffering is still suffering, and people should seek ways to do good without needing to suffer (example: Parent goes without eating so kids can eat. Kids eat = good. Parent starving = bad. It's noble of the parent to do so, and overall can be called right, but that doesn't make the parent starving a good thing). Blood magic is something that should be a last resort, because using it causes harm no matter the purpose it is being used for. Harm must be done when using blood magic.

 

All analogies are flawed, depending on how much scrutiny is placed on them.

 

Maybe they added the whole "rooted in pain and death" stuff to make it more evil, maybe they always thought that but realized they didn't emphasize it enough beforehand, and now they are. Like I said, it's like the dark side of the force, the writers/developers/creators want it to be evil... unless they want to make some anti-hero or good intentioned dark jedi or something, then it just becomes a tool with negative side effects.

[Iakus]

What do you expect if it's something we're supposed to see as evil without thinking about it?  
 

I'm not sure I understand the question.  All of the examples I gave used blood magic in order to do things they thought they were justifiable, they just needed more power.  All of their plans either backfired spectacularly or came with prices far higher than they anticipated (or both).

 

 

 

Except, you know, it isn't. Fundamentally different I mean. You can augment spells with it just as you can with lyrium, so it's actually mostly the same as other magic, with a few exceptions. We know as much about where its power comes from as we do about magic in general - mages can draw power from the Fade, or from blood, beyond that the internal workings of magic are unknown - and anyway, being unknown does not justify condemnation, it just means you have to be careful. I have seen no general loathing by non-demonic spirits of blood magic as such - all examples involved human sacrifice. And the claim about "side effects we can't predict....", LOL, that's nonsensical - if you don't know how do you know it's bad? How can you even assert the existence of side effects if you don't know them?

I'd say people's discomfort with the idea - and the fact that human sacrifice and mind-control are possible - lets them seek for more pitfalls than there are. The only thing I'll concede it that it appears to attract demons, and even that makes little sense since you don't even need to contact the Fade for blood magic. This whole setup really has all the hallmarks of a badly-planned contrivance - you know, similar to when they let DA2's act 3 drown in a flood of insane mages because in their tests, too many people sided with the templars, and overlooked that the injustice of the Annullment - killing mages wholesale, most of them IN the circle while the actual atrocities took place outside - was too fundamental to be countered by mere numbers.

I agree in one thing: blood magic is not the first option you should consider to power your spells, and actually, anyone sane would avoid it except if there was no other option, simply because nobody wants to harm themselves for no important reason. Assuming you're not the type for human sacrifice, anyway, but I don't think we need to talk about those.

Magic, standard magic, augmented with lyrium, comes from the Fade, yes.  Blood magic is augmented with, well, blood. But it does not come from the Fade.  So, where does the power come from?  Given the disastrous uses blood magic has been put to, even by experienced mages, I'd say one should be more than merely "cautious" around it.  Look at Soldier's Peak, the griffon aeries of Weishaupt, and Brecelian Forest if you want to see a few examples of what blood magic can do.

 

Blood magic attracting demons totally makes sense.  First, it weakens teh Veil.  And demons want to cross over.  So yeah, they;re going to be drawn to a spot where they can potentially do that.  For another thing, blood magic is magic born of pain and violence.  Why wouldn't demons be drawn to that?  Finally Demons teach blood magic.  It may not be of the Fade, but it's something of theirs.  It's speculation on my part, sure, but I suspect they can tell when it's being used.

 

I'll reiterate, blood magic is not evil.  But it is dark.  And very, very dangerous.  It's clearly different from standard magic.  Sure, you can use it to get the same result as standard magic, but it operates on different rules.  Rules we don't fully understand yet.  Heck it would be a stretch to say it operates on rules we only kinda understand.  

[The Baconer]

Is hemokinesis possible, I wonder? Could the same be achieved by conventional telekinesis rather than ebul magic? Some interesting opportunities there. 

[actionhero112]

There is some medical applications of it according to Krem. I think that's neat. 

The issue is that Blood Magic should only be used by competent, emotionally stable beings, that intrinsically know what they're messing with under supervised conditions. Fact is, that it's almost always the exact opposite is true. 

 

This is because there is no limitation on the power. It's as available to a weak, angry kid trying to save his father as it is to an experienced magister. And that problem hasn't gone away with training. 

 

In general I think the world just too young to make use of it. It's too dangerous. 

[Iakus]

Is hemokinesis possible, I wonder? 

Blood Control was a spell in DAO, yes

[The Baconer]

Blood Control was a spell in DAO, yes

 

Eeehh I can only put so much stock into those DA:O ability descriptions. That was before they really found their "groove" with the lore. 

[Urzon]

Magic, standard magic, augmented with lyrium, comes from the Fade, yes.  Blood magic is augmented with, well, blood. But it does not come from the Fade.  So, where does the power come from?  Given the disastrous uses blood magic has been put to, even by experienced mages, I'd say one should be more than merely "cautious" around it.  Look at Soldier's Peak, the griffon aeries of Weishaupt, and Brecelian Forest if you want to see a few examples of what blood magic can do.

Technically, the lyrium used by mages and Templars is the blood of the Titans. It doesn't come from the Fade itself, but it has strong connections to the lyrium growing in the Fade, and mages use this connection to enhance their own abilities for a short while since it strengthens their own ties to the Fade. Their spells then get a large boost because they can more readily and easily draw upon the Fade to power their spells.

So we can almost say that any lyrium enchanted spell casting could be considered a form of blood magic as well, but the blood itself has to be extracted and refined from a very specific creature (the Titans).
 

Finally Demons teach blood magic.  It may not be of the Fade, but it's something of theirs.  It's speculation on my part, sure, but I suspect they can tell when it's being used.

Considering that blood magic has no ties to the Fade, I doubt the demons/spirits came up with it first. The elves or someone else probably invented it, and after that it was simply enough for the demons to learn from the dreaming minds of the blood mages and pass out amongst themselves. Knowledge is eternal in the Fade, and once they know something, demons and spirit will usually keep that knowledge as long as it's valuable for them. Especially if they can use it later on as a bargaining tool with mortals.

[Iakus]

 
So we can almost say that any lyrium enchanted spell casting could be considered a form of blood magic as well, but the blood itself has to be extracted and refined from a very specific creature (the Titans).

That is actually an interesting point

 

 

Considering that blood magic has no ties to the Fade, I doubt the demons/spirits came up with it first. The elves or someone else probably invented it, and after that it was simply enough for the demons to learn from the dreaming minds of the blood mages and pass out amongst themselves. Knowledge is eternal in the Fade, and once they know something, demons and spirit will usually keep that knowledge as long as it's valuable for them. Especially if they can use it later on as a bargaining tool with mortals.

A possibility, but also doesn't disprove the possibility that the demons know more than they let on about blood magic.  That they can somehow exploit its use by mortal mages somehow.

[Ieldra]

That is actually an interesting point

 

A possibility, but also doesn't disprove the possibility that the demons know more than they let on about blood magic.  That they can somehow exploit its use by mortal mages somehow.

Our information at this point is such that there's a wide range of possibilities that can't be falsified. It's just as likely that the use of lyrium has some unknown side effects, such as making you subject to the will of a titan. In either case, "unknown side effects" is not something I consider valid in a debate, since they can always exist around anything you might care to name and you can never disprove them - they're unknown after all. Using such constructs in a debate is fallacious. In order to have weight, being possible is not enough. At the very least, it must be demonstrated to be both plausible (which includes more plausible than the alternative) and relevant.

[Iakus]

Our information at this point is such that there's a wide range of possibilities that can't be falsified. It's just as likely that the use of lyrium has some unknown side effects, such as making you subject to the will of a titan. In either case, "unknown side effects" is not something I consider valid in a debate, since they can always exist around anything you might care to name and you can never disprove them - they're unknown after all. Using such constructs in a debate is fallacious. In order to have weight, being possible is not enough. At the very least, it must be demonstrated to be both plausible (which includes more plausible than the alternative) and relevant.

Lyrium does in fact have side effects:  It is highly addictive.  It makes templars delusional and paranoid.  In mages it is also a mutagen (I am left to wonder how much of Corypheus' appearance is because of the taint and how much is simply long-term lyrium use)

 

The magister lords of the Tevinter Imperium were widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as creatures that had once been human

 

If you want to argue that blood magic should be more thoroughly researched to discover the true limits of its power and the potential dangers it poses, I certainly won't argue with that (though I'd stress that utmost care needs to be taken, and it should have ethical limits as well) But I stand by my belief that blood magic has fundamental differences from Fade magic, and the two are not equivalent.  You'll find me as ready to believe that they are as alike as blue lyrium is to red.

[diaspora2k5]

That is actually an interesting point

 

A possibility, but also doesn't disprove the possibility that the demons know more than they let on about blood magic.  That they can somehow exploit its use by mortal mages somehow.

IIRC a blood mage in Last Flight learns the skills from a demon itself. Avernus says demons know everything about Blood Magic- it's the blight that's alien to them.

[Aren]

In mages it is also a mutagen (I am left to wonder how much of Corypheus' 

 

 

I didn't know this.

[Ieldra]

Lyrium does in fact have side effects:  It is highly addictive.  It makes templars delusional and paranoid.  In mages it is also a mutagen (I am left to wonder how much of Corypheus' appearance is because of the taint and how much is simply long-term lyrium use)

 

The magister lords of the Tevinter Imperium were widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as creatures that had once been human

 

If you want to argue that blood magic should be more thoroughly researched to discover the true limits of its power and the potential dangers it poses, I certainly won't argue with that (though I'd stress that utmost care needs to be taken, and it should have ethical limits as well) But I stand by my belief that blood magic has fundamental differences from Fade magic, and the two are not equivalent.  You'll find me as ready to believe that they are as alike as blue lyrium is to red.

I can't see any reason to be more paranoid about intrinstic dangers of blood magic than about those of other magic. The defining drawback is ethical, being paranoid about misuse makes sense, but apart from that I can't see any reason to expect blood magic to be more dangerous. It may turn out that way, it may not, we don't know, but at this point, it's more that the moral dimension makes people want it to have side effects, because well, something with such potential for misuse should be dangerous to the user, right? I'm in the opposite camp. I think stories should rather stress that more often than not, the world doesn't work according to our moral preferences, and doesn't give us any help in that regard. We'll have to do all the hard work of figuring out how we want to live for ourselves.

 

As for the lyrium, I had forgot about that. I have my hypothesis about why Corypheus and the Architect look as they do, and it doesn't involve lyrium, but there's enough evidence that long-time lyrium use can lead to disfiguration to consider the possibility that it had some effect on Corypheus as well. I'd certainly look out for something on the same scale when considering blood magic, but as I said, I see no reason to be *more* paranoid about it.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Technically, the lyrium used by mages and Templars is the blood of the Titans. It doesn't come from the Fade itself, but it has strong connections to the lyrium growing in the Fade, and mages use this connection to enhance their own abilities for a short while since it strengthens their own ties to the Fade. Their spells then get a large boost because they can more readily and easily draw upon the Fade to power their spells.

So we can almost say that any lyrium enchanted spell casting could be considered a form of blood magic as well, but the blood itself has to be extracted and refined from a very specific creature (the Titans).
 

Considering that blood magic has no ties to the Fade, I doubt the demons/spirits came up with it first. The elves or someone else probably invented it, and after that it was simply enough for the demons to learn from the dreaming minds of the blood mages and pass out amongst themselves. Knowledge is eternal in the Fade, and once they know something, demons and spirit will usually keep that knowledge as long as it's valuable for them. Especially if they can use it later on as a bargaining tool with mortals.

It's called "a metaphor" It's not LITERALLY blood.

[Cobra's_back]

*Sigh* Time to beat this dead horse again.

Blood magic isn't itself evil, but most of its applications are evil. To paraphrase Dorian:

So let's say you use your blood or that of a willing participant. No harm in that, right? But that only gets you so far. What if you need more power? You ALWAYS need more. That's when you get into human sacrifices and demon summoning.

And then let's consider that we know very little about the nature of blood magic. In the book Last Flight, a Warden used blood magic to empower the griffons so that they would fight harder. Without that ritual, the Archdemon might not have been beaten. So a good was achieved, right?

Spoiler

Except that the spell also ended up creating a magical disease that drove the griffons violently insane. They ended up being killed by each other or by the Wardens themselves.

One could speculate that this was the true cost of the spell. In exchange for ending the Blight, it cost the lives of an entire species, and now the Wardens are severely hampered in their efforts to battle the Archdemon.

Blood magic has never been used to achieve a good end without severe repurcussions. Consider that.

+5 Excellent post and great find.

[Lumix19]

It's called "a metaphor" It's not LITERALLY blood.

Isn't it more of an analogy? I mean if lyrium serves a similar function for Titans as blood serves for humans than what's the difference? It's still blood magic, as in the use of a creature's vital substance to work magic.