*Spoiler for Trespasser*
We all know that the Chantry is full of bullshit and it wasn't the Maker that erected the Veil it was Solas. But if the story about Andraste was true and that she met the Maker. Maybe the Maker is just a really powerful spirit or demon and Andraste was a mage. What is your thought on the Maker?
The Chantry doesn't say the maker created the veil, it says the maker created the fade, the golden/black city and the world which is the same thing the ancient Neromenians tribes and their successors the Ancient Tevinter Imperium believed not the veil.
As for Andreste being a mage that is what the original Tevinter Chantry, the Tevinter started their chantry before the Orlaisans did it simply merged with the southern chantry in a attempt to avoid the religious conflicts over the nature of Andreste that would later leading to the Tevinter Chantry becoming independent again along with the whole the Tevinter having male priests who had families and other issues.
To me the maker likely seems like it might be really be the only real god in the setting depending on how you define a god, he supposedly creates the world and has a firm belief in his creations having fee will which is likely why he doesn't actively interfere with the world.
The Maker's been known well before Andraste, at least by humans.
"known" = acknowledged, not worshipped
why worship something "distant" or "neautral" if other powerful creatures can boost your tribe/oneself materially?
It's the Ultimate Being, it's not confirmed nor debunked if it interacts with its creations.
Devs say that its nature won't be revealed, because it represents the essence of faith.
I'm a little too spent today to type out much of my own reponse, but I was reading something of the same subject matter earlier, and the posts there did a fairly good jo on unpacking the religious situation given our current knowledge.
https://www.reddit.c...bout_the_maker/
In Chantry lore the Maker symbol is often the Sun , and the Maker power are often related to the Light.
In Dalish and ancient elven lore there was a Sun deity , but he was overthrown by Elgarn'an (an Evanuris).
The Sun wasn't the only ancient deity before the elves , the earth is also seen as a "thing" ( at the very least we know there are Titans underground , but we don't know if the "Stone" is apart from Titans or just multiple Titans)
Also the Maker , in theory , didn't create everything : he wasn't involved in creating dwarves.
Anyway chances are the" Maker " is a very ancient deity , and the Chantry got some things wrong
What everyone else said, but I just wanted to add that the devs have said they'll never confirm or deny the existence of the Maker in the games.
That said, if he is real, then the Chantry got a lot wrong, as others have pointed out. And even before Dorian tells us that the Tevinter chantry thinks Andraste was a mage, Morrigan raises the possibility in party namter with Leliana. So it's something people in the universe have thought about.
The Chantry doesn't say the maker created the veil
The dragon age wikia says: "It is said that long ago, the Maker created the Fade as His first world.>...>He separated it from the first world by putting the Veil in between them.
I think it's clearly said that the Maker indeed created the Veil, so my cant it be Solas? The creation of the Fade can be the same event as dividing it from the rest of the world. Or both events are separate and was decided to be created by the sole person for the sake creating a monotheism (which is a very convinient form of religion that lets rule the nations more easily and unite them in general instead of having several deities) The rest of human lore/religion is just reprocessed stories.
Now wild speculations:
If Andraste was a mage (which is a pretty solid theory that goes around Thedas with all the books and stuff) she could be influenced by Him in her dreams. That could be one of the reasons she decided to side with the elves, Shartan, and try to free them too, not only because she was that kind and pure but also because the Maker told her to do so.
The CHANT doesn't say that the Maker created the VEIL.
This is an assumption made by characters and players.
DAI makes the Veil to be understood as a CONSTRUCT made by SOLAS. POST creation of the Fade and Thedas. Its described as an ultimately unnecessary element of creation, that Solas intends on bringing down and returning existence to its prior state - with the Fade and Thedas as still separate but much more intermingling realms.
DAI = The Chant isn't necessarily wrong, but much of the interpretations and politics of the Chantry is. Redeem, dismiss, or evolve the Chantry (or rather, all 3 by the end).
Nothing we learned here actually disproves the Chant IMO. Maker didn't make the Veil. Its not part of the story.
I don't see why Corypheus would have any reason to lie about having been to the seat of the Maker and finding it empty.
I don't see why Corypheus would have any reason to lie about having been to the seat of the Maker and finding it empty.
A few ways this could have happened, the Maker could have left or altered his memories so he thinks that there is no Maker.
The Maker may not exist but there are strong arguments to him existing.
Possible reasons:
I think the best point made on the Maker in DAI is when talking to Josephine and Varric. "Perhaps the Maker set these events in motion we no longer see his hand in it." "Demons raining from the sky, to the people out there these are the end times. You are their savior that maybe their prayers aren't falling on deaf ears."
http://forum.bioware...-maker-and-why/
- Andraste and her Ashes.
And it's the ashes that get me. Sure, a Joan of Arc figure could rise up under the banner of a god that isn't there and then get canonized/deified herself, but for those ashes to have actual healing powers (not to mention all the other stuff that went down in the temple during DA:O) without some kind of deity at work is quite a stretch.
Some hints (sorry for lack of sourcing) that 'The Maker' is not so much necessarily/always of a singular humanoid entity that he is assumed to be (and this can also mean that The Maker can be beyond both space.. and time), that beliefs form reality (and therefore IMO leaves open the possibility of a causality loop that may create the Maker that makes everything), and that since the Fade is several/many/infinite layers of perception, what is seen as the Black City could very well be the Golden City is seen from the certain magical point of view.
Basically what I mean is that the magisters' mentality may have very well made the City black for them and this spread out, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a truly (though more abstract than assumed) 'Golden City' in existence.
I'm just shooting out ideas here.
In terms of 'blessings are actually Titans' line of thought as a result of the idea that the Temple of Sacred Ashes lies above a Titan or whatever - we have to remember that the Maker may have existed before the elves, before the titans, before everything/almost everything we consider Thedas. It can still, and IMO probably will, be a continued narrative that even the Titans' power may (if you have some hope/faith about it) have originated still backwards into the Maker myth. I like the 'Valta is like Andraste' theory for this reason.
And it's the ashes that get me. Sure, a Joan of Arc figure could rise up under the banner of a god that isn't there and then get canonized/deified herself, but for those ashes to have actual healing powers (not to mention all the other stuff that went down in the temple during DA:O) without some kind of deity at work is quite a stretch.
We know that Faith Spirits are Hax as far as Spirits go. Beings from a dream realm fueled by belief.
Spirits can either take the form of people from their observations and from what they learn from their memories, or an intense enough death can lead the dead person's identity to become imprinted on Spirit whose nature resonates the most with the deceased at the moment of their death.
At it's most basic Blood Magic can refer to either creating a sympathetic bond between the blood and it's owner(stuff like tracking, or voodooing them) or sacrificing life-force to power magic which weakens the Veil.
Andraste as she burned, basically got Sacrificed and that combined with the belief in her Divinity no doubt served to heal Havard.
The Location of the Temple, built upon a Temple to Mythal, the Gauntlet closely resembling the sort of puzzles and challenges you face in the other Temple of Mythal.
The amount of Disciples of Andraste that Sacrificed themselves to pyres in the Sacred Ashes Temple, I mean, literally lit themselves on fire as a show of devotion to Andraste.
High concentrations of Lyrium.
As far as I'm concerned that's the first time I've read of putting an Epic Level Enchantment on an object, by accidentally using Blood Magic and Consorting with Demons.
The Lyrium and Blood Magic provide fuel for the Enchantment, Belief and Faith Spirits Direction, the Temple already has kick-ass defenses and who knows what else, the Ashes' one of healing power becomes a permanent enchantment, it could even be that the Urn was enchanted and would have always been full.
The Sacred Ashes are nothing more than Demons, Lyrium, and Blood Magic.
We know that Faith Spirits are Hax as far as Spirits go. Beings from a dream realm fueled by belief.
Spirits can either take the form of people from their observations and from what they learn from their memories, or an intense enough death can lead the dead person's identity to become imprinted on Spirit whose nature resonates the most with the deceased at the moment of their death.
At it's most basic Blood Magic can refer to either creating a sympathetic bond between the blood and it's owner(stuff like tracking, or voodooing them) or sacrificing life-force to power magic which weakens the Veil.
Andraste as she burned, basically got Sacrificed and that combined with the belief in her Divinity no doubt served to heal Havard.
The Location of the Temple, built upon a Temple to Mythal, the Gauntlet closely resembling the sort of puzzles and challenges you face in the other Temple of Mythal.
The amount of Disciples of Andraste that Sacrificed themselves to pyres in the Sacred Ashes Temple, I mean, literally lit themselves on fire as a show of devotion to Andraste.
High concentrations of Lyrium.
As far as I'm concerned that's the first time I've read of putting an Epic Level Enchantment on an object, by accidentally using Blood Magic and Consorting with Demons.
The Lyrium and Blood Magic provide fuel for the Enchantment, Belief and Faith Spirits Direction, the Temple already has kick-ass defenses and who knows what else, the Ashes' one of healing power becomes a permanent enchantment, it could even be that the Urn was enchanted and would have always been full.
The Sacred Ashes are nothing more than Demons, Lyrium, and Blood Magic.
The problem about the Maker is the way in which many of the characters seem to believe he is intervening in the world or hope that he will.
In WoT1 section on religion it specifically says that the faithful believe the Maker simply observes the world and will not perform miracles on their behalf. Ultimately the Maker will return when the world will be cleansed of all evil and the darkspawn. The Chantry teach that the Maker will only return if people from all corners of the world praise him, which is how they justify their Exalted Marches and aggressive conversion of those who do not follow their religion.
This is why I found it somewhat odd that people thought it was Andraste in the Fade and that the anchor was bestowed by the Maker, since it was clear that the world had not universally accepted the Chant of Light, regardless of the chaos that existed or the challenge presented by the Elder One. Still, it was also clear in DAI that that the faithful, such as Cassandra, Leliana and Giselle, are happy to adapt interpretation of events to suit their purposes regardless of the truth of the matter. The ordinary people just tend to follow their lead, since many people are illiterate and probably don't know much of the precise detail of what they are meant to believe.
The Maker may exist as a First Cause who brought the world into being but beyond that it is very much left up to what you personally want to believe. Having read both reference books and played through the entirety of DAI and its DLC, I find it very difficult to credit Andraste with having been in contact with the Maker since so much of what it is claimed she said doesn't fit with the facts, particularly concerning the evanuris and Solas. However, she never wrote anything down and so the traditions were passed on by word of mouth, after which the Chantry got hold of them so who knows how much they altered her visions to suit their world view. The end of the world scenario actually came from Drakon, which he in turn claimed was a vision bestowed on him by the Maker/Andraste, the Canticle of Silence (giving the greatest detail about the offending Magisters) came from Hessarian and was later denounced by the Divine as politically motivated, and of course the Canticle of Shartan was removed for political convenience, so I am frankly sceptical about anything in the Chant actually coming genuinely from the Maker.
I don't see why Corypheus would have any reason to lie about having been to the seat of the Maker and finding it empty.
Other than the fact the maker was supposed to have left after the first sin so why would he have been in the city in the first place, the entire speech about there being no maker is a attempt to break the Inquisitor. In his own memory crystal journals he refers to the maker as simply being a absent god not a fake one and states that the people deserve better than a god who will not answer their prayers.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Corypheus is not a reliable narrator, he's clearly insane and prone to counterdicting himself like saying the Golden city was already black . He in a later encounter rants later about how he walked its golden halls while denouncing how far beneath him you are.
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