264 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

That's all a load of complete nonsense. Modern fiction has heavily suffered from the very wrong idea that 'greyness' equates automatically to maturity and insight. It's indicative of weak and shallow writers. It also depends on a very ridiculous and poorly reasoned grasp of what an audience's 'interpretation' is.
 

 

First, that wasn't very nice...

 

Second, you didn't really contradict my point.   I said that games are a medium which permit greater freedom of expression, in contrast to traditional media such as books or movies where answers are solely at the province of the creator. Obviously, this has many limitations in practice, but in general, you are asked to come up with solutions on your own to things like should the council be protected or should Sovereign be prioritized. In a movie, the writer decides that, you simply watch.

 

I said the effect in a sense was that they were "gray" or transgressive which I left pretty undefined, it seems perhaps you interpreted in a particular way.  I didn't mean really anything other than they were (at least at one time, perhaps still) controverting the kind of straight give and receive dynamic of more traditional media.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Tela Vasir

Captain Enyala

[Lady Artifice]

First, that wasn't very nice...

 

Second, you didn't really contradict my point.   I said that games are a medium which permit greater freedom of expression, in contrast to traditional media such as books or movies where answers are solely at the province of the creator. Obviously, this has many limitations in practice, but in general, you are asked to come up with solutions on your own to things like should the council be protected or should Sovereign be prioritized. In a movie, the writer decides that, you simply watch.

 

I said the effect in a sense was that they were "gray" or transgressive which I left pretty undefined, it seems perhaps you interpreted in a particular way.  I didn't mean really anything other than they were (at least at one time, perhaps still) controverting the kind of straight give and receive dynamic of more traditional media.

 

Don't let him get to you. Opinions that aren't his make Puncher very angry, and when that happens manners seem to elude him. 

[SardaukarElite]

I didn't say that there weren't any, just that they were rare. I don't think that list is big enough to make me reconsider that opinion. Plus, a few of them aren't very physical at all, certainly not in the way I meant. Carmilla and Poision Ivy, for example, are both generally distance fighters. 

 

Where you drawing the line here, do you need to be a melee grappler to count as physical?

 

 

An “antagonist” is really kind of the easy way out as far as games go, it means you can check your own interpretations at the door, the writers are going to take care of all the complicated questions for you and so on.

 

The word antagonist just refers to opposition. Whether the antagonists make us check our interpretations is up to the writers. Antagonists can be better people than our character, or even figments of our character's imagination.

[WildOrchid]

Ouch... So how about Aria T'Loak?  And if you read the books and comics it fleshes out more how she ruled Omega and the Terminus systems with fear? And again what about Cersei Baratheon (of course she got into a bit of trouble at the end of the last series).  On a different tac I always thought Kai Leng was a weak version of O-Ren Ishii now there's a villain worth getting behind...

But wait I think I just fell into a Troll Trap

 

Just saw this post, pls don't compare useless Kai Lame to the glory that is O-Ren Ishii...... This woman is pure fear.

 

[BabyPuncher]

First, that wasn't very nice...

 

Second, you didn't really contradict my point.   I said that games are a medium which permit greater freedom of expression, in contrast to traditional media such as books or movies where answers are solely at the province of the creator. Obviously, this has many limitations in practice, but in general, you are asked to come up with solutions on your own to things like should the council be protected or should Sovereign be prioritized. In a movie, the writer decides that, you simply watch.

 

You're thinking on a very shallow level.

 

They don't allow greater 'freedom of expression.' They give you no more 'freedom' than a movie does to decide if an idea or action is right or wrong. They can't.

 

The player choice doesn't matter. What matters is the story responds to that choice. Which is something the writers have 100% control of and the player has 0% control of. If the writers want to treat one choice as stupid and clearly wrong and one choice as clearly right, they're going to just that. The player has zero control to make their choice the 'right' one.

 

It goes further than that, really. The writers send a message of what right and wrong is regardless of whether they want to or not. There is no such thing as a silent narrator. Thus the idea of a game providing and 'letting the player decide' what the right choice is stupid and doomed to fail. A story cannot do that.

 

In fact, the very idea of a video game providing 'more' freedom for the audience to think something is right or wrong is patently absurd because it implies that books and films somehow don't "give" audiences 100% of that freedom in the first place. Does a book grow and an and point a gun at your head if you don't agree with it's theme? It does not. The audience always has a 100% ability to decide whether the content of the story is right or wrong, good or bad.

[Lady Artifice]

Where you drawing the line here, do you need to be a melee grappler to count as physical?

 

In the sense I was using the word...yeah. I realize it was a vague choice. I'm trying to think of female antagonists who defy the Guys Smash, Girls Shoot tradition. They exist (I think Meredith and Vassir are excellent examples), but they're rare. 

[Lady Artifice]

Just saw this post, pls don't compare useless Kai Lame to the glory that is O-Ren Ishii...... This woman is pure fear.

 

 

She and the Bride were responsible for my favorite sword fight in any movie ever. 

 

Can we have her for an antagonist? 

[Donk]

*Gasp*

 

WHAT? WOMEN CAN ACTUALLY... PHYSICALLY FIGHT? WITH STRENGTH?

 

 

 

BabyPuncher's reaction:

 

[Joseph Warrick]

Don't let him get to you. Opinions that aren't his make Puncher very angry, and when that happens manners seem to elude him. 

 

He is quite rude and he's in many threads, too. Thankfully the forum provides users with a very convenient fly swatter.

 

[SardaukarElite]

In the sense I was using the word...yeah. I realize it was a vague choice. I'm trying to think of female antagonists who defy the Guys Smash, Girls Shoot tradition. They exist (I think Meredith and Vassir are excellent examples), but they're rare. 

 

I think I see what you mean. It gets a bit iffy with what counts as smashing in each setting.

 

All I can think of off hand is Boudica in Ryse, which wasn't exactly a great game.

[mickey111]

*Gasp*

 

WHAT? WOMEN CAN ACTUALLY... PHYSICALLY FIGHT? WITH STRENGTH?

 

 

 

BabyPuncher's reaction:

 

 

 

It's not that they can't it's just that men are bigger, and stronger, which is fairly key to how men and women treat each other.

[ddraigcoch123]

Just saw this post, pls don't compare useless Kai Lame to the glory that is O-Ren Ishii...... This woman is pure fear.

 

You are absolutely right I should never have mentioned them in the same thread let alone the same post... she is absolutely superb...

[WildOrchid]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sighs.

[Donk]

It's not that they can't it's just that men are bigger, and stronger, which is fairly key to how men and women treat each other.

Yeah.. Not always though. It is entirely possible for a woman to kick a man's arse in a physical fight. I have experience in the matter.

[mickey111]

Yeah.. Not always though. It is entirely possible for a woman to kick a man's arse in a physical fight. I have experience in the matter.

 

I said bigger and stronger. The weight classes in male fighting sports are higher, and nothing can really be done because that's just the way most people are born. 

[Fredward]

Also more of a moot point in a future of genetic and cybernetic enhancements and where your armor probably boosts your strength too. But if we're talking in a general, psychological way? Then sure. But physical size and strength are hardly the only ways to be intimidating, threatening or scary.

[Guitar-Hero]

Bioware has made some great female antagonists so absolutely 

[naddaya]

Yeah.. Not always though. It is entirely possible for a woman to kick a man's arse in a physical fight. I have experience in the matter.

 

Besides, the biological differences are exasperated by the fact that most women don't train for strength and tend to starve themselves. In ME soldiers are already "enhanced" and synthetic implants aren't uncommon (Saren, Shepard, TIM), I doubt women having less testosterone would be an issue.

[Killdren88]

Besides, the biological differences are exasperated by the fact that most women don't train for strength and tend to starve themselves. In ME soldiers are already "enhanced" and synthetic implants aren't uncommon (Saren, Shepard, TIM), I doubt women having less testosterone would be an issue.

I've always seen it as where men might have more physical strength, woman have greater agility. Sorta balances things out I think. Then again that how I merely see it. Part of the reason you see more female Gymnastics I suppose.

[Donk]

I said bigger and stronger. The weight classes in male fighting sports are higher, and nothing can really be done because that's just the way most people are born.

True. But women can still fight regardless of what some narrow minded git thinks women "should" be. Anybody can do anything just so long as they have the skill. Fighting requires a combination of strength, speed, agility and co-ordination, balance and a number of other things. It's like saying men can't play netball or do ballet. If you're good at it you can do it.

So in relation to this topic -- a female antagonist is possible, even if she's a brute force. She doesn't have to be the cunning manipulative b*tch like has been mentioned, Cersei Lannister.

But of course, say it happens.. The "Anti SJW agenda" brigade will be here in full force. Whinging. As usual.

[mickey111]

Besides, the biological differences are exasperated by the fact that most women don't train for strength and tend to starve themselves. In ME soldiers are already "enhanced" and synthetic implants aren't uncommon (Saren, Shepard, TIM), I doubt women having less testosterone would be an issue.

That is all true, we're still influenced by the real world psychology though.

[mickey111]

Hopefully the villain will have more success than Cersei. She is a joke.

[Killdren88]

Hopefully the villain will have more success than Cersei. She is a joke.

Mmmm...all that delicious Karma this past season...

[Fredward]

Hopefully the villain will have more success than Cersei. She is a joke.

 

Totally off topic but I don't think Cersei is supposed to be a villain, at least not in the books. No more than anyone else is anyway.