99 réponses à ce sujet

[thesuperdarkone2]

As shown in the Trespasser dlc, the College of Enchanters has not infact backfired despite what all the pro-templars seem to believe. 

 

If the College did backfire, where are all the mentions of the abominations that everyone acted were certain to appear? Where are all the blood mages trying to conquer Thedas? Where are all the problems that everyone assumed that the College would cause?

 

Don't forget how Vivienne who utterly despises the College grudgingly admits that it's a good place for mages to get training so even the person who hates it the most thinks mages can have great training.

 

Furthermore, the fact that non-divine Vivienne's codex entry is the same regardless of whether she's in the circle or college exists pretty much means the College is the Circle but without templars, the restrictions, or the atmosphere which makes mages seem like cursed creatures rather than people.

 

All in all, it seems mage freedom is actually working. What are your thoughts?

[Xilizhra]

Further time may be needed to tell, though at least it's gotten off to a good start, and actual catastrophes seem unlikely to spring up thanks to us leaving southern Thedas for the next game... so things seem hopeful for now. At least my Hawke's fight wasn't in vain, and that's a remarkably comforting realization for her.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Leliana is mary sue and writers pet so pretty much i called it even before trespasser .

I pretty much expected nothing more than praising leliana and college to heaves even if mages were tearing apart thedas and i expect nothing less in sequels.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Further time may be needed to tell, though at least it's gotten off to a good start, and actual catastrophes seem unlikely to spring up thanks to us leaving southern Thedas for the next game... so things seem hopeful for now. At least my Hawke's fight wasn't in vain, and that's a remarkably comforting realization for her.

Mine too. It's nice to know that my pro-mage Hawke managed to help give mages their freedom. At least Hawke finally got a good ending.

[Former_Fiend]

Leliana is mary sue and writers pet so pretty much i called it even before trespasser .

I pretty much expected nothing more than praising leliana and college to heaves even if mages were tearing apart thedas and i expect nothing less in sequels.

 

It actually makes me somewhat physically ill to say this, but I'm inclined to agree, at least somewhat.

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with the College working in and of itself. I may come off as pro-templar sometimes - and I do see some of their points - but the college isn't too far off from what I felt the right solution was, so it working doesn't bother me.

 

What bothers me is that Leliana is able to inact all of these amazing, radical changes and suffer no real backlash or consequences for it. Minor uprising that, if you steel/harden her, is dispersed within months. Aside from that, everything works perfectly. And that just doesn't fit what Dragon Age is. It's way too idealistic for this setting to have someone just be able to say "Rules changed!" without really having to work and strive for it and then have that work.

 

So, just the fact that she's able to accomplish all that she does is more indicative of her being a sue than anything else.

[actionhero112]

Somewhere in the future I'd imagine.

 

This is of course, assuming that Dragon Age remains consistent in its writing. I highly doubt the countries of thedas will remain impartial to the consolidation of mage power with no restrictions, especially considering their reaction to the presence of the inquisition. A unaligned force will not be ignored. 

 

In general these things take time though.

 

It would be a failure of the narrative to present a controversy such as the College of Enchanters, and not provide a counterpoint. 

 

Though I think a lot of people like to classify people as mage/templar supporters. Reality is that for most people it isn't that binary. For myself, I think both orders need changes, but I don't think the answer is letting the mages govern themselves without templar involvement.

[Xilizhra]

It actually makes me somewhat physically ill to say this, but I'm inclined to agree, at least somewhat.

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with the College working in and of itself. I may come off as pro-templar sometimes - and I do see some of their points - but the college isn't too far off from what I felt the right solution was, so it working doesn't bother me.

 

What bothers me is that Leliana is able to inact all of these amazing, radical changes and suffer no real backlash or consequences for it. Minor uprising that, if you steel/harden her, is dispersed within months. Aside from that, everything works perfectly. And that just doesn't fit what Dragon Age is. It's way too idealistic for this setting to have someone just be able to say "Rules changed!" without really having to work and strive for it and then have that work.

 

So, just the fact that she's able to accomplish all that she does is more indicative of her being a sue than anything else.

I think that she did have to work and strive for it, it's just that the game didn't show that process because most people aren't interested in Chantry politics.

[thesuperdarkone2]

It actually makes me somewhat physically ill to say this, but I'm inclined to agree, at least somewhat.

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with the College working in and of itself. I may come off as pro-templar sometimes - and I do see some of their points - but the college isn't too far off from what I felt the right solution was, so it working doesn't bother me.

 

What bothers me is that Leliana is able to inact all of these amazing, radical changes and suffer no real backlash or consequences for it. Minor uprising that, if you steel/harden her, is dispersed within months. Aside from that, everything works perfectly. And that just doesn't fit what Dragon Age is. It's way too idealistic for this setting to have someone just be able to say "Rules changed!" without really having to work and strive for it and then have that work.

 

So, just the fact that she's able to accomplish all that she does is more indicative of her being a sue than anything else.

Then why don't you ever complain about Bhelen practically changing dwarven society and pretty much being the correct option?

 

Also, how about the fact that a dwarf becomes the ruler of an entire marcher city state or the fact that an elf, dwarf, or qunari can become a comte despite how radical a non-human gaining a noble title is.

[Former_Fiend]

I think that she did have to work and strive for it, it's just that the game didn't show that process because most people aren't interested in Chantry politics.

 

Not showing it can be the same as it not happening in fiction.

 

The slides give the indication of she declared it and it was so, with some protest. Even if the writers have a two hundred page novel worked up in the office detailing her arduous struggle to make these reforms a reality, we get no real sense of that. So as far as we're concerned, what we got is what there was. 

 

And again, I just think that on the whole it was just too much. I'm all for the status quo changing in big ways, but they've established a tone for this setting and Leliana as Divine just did not fit that.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It actually makes me somewhat physically ill to say this, but I'm inclined to agree, at least somewhat.

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with the College working in and of itself. I may come off as pro-templar sometimes - and I do see some of their points - but the college isn't too far off from what I felt the right solution was, so it working doesn't bother me.

 

What bothers me is that Leliana is able to inact all of these amazing, radical changes and suffer no real backlash or consequences for it. Minor uprising that, if you steel/harden her, is dispersed within months. Aside from that, everything works perfectly. And that just doesn't fit what Dragon Age is. It's way too idealistic for this setting to have someone just be able to say "Rules changed!" without really having to work and strive for it and then have that work.

 

So, just the fact that she's able to accomplish all that she does is more indicative of her being a sue than anything else.

 

Yeah , but college is ridiculous because it is treated as solution to the problems that mages present and were shown to us through series ,instead they just ignored said threats in DAI completely when they should be apparent more than they ever were .So pretty much college solves problem it realistically speaking should intensive greatly ,but no freedom solves everything.

 

Yeah , that leliana is mary sue in DAI is painfully obvious even in base game when you catch things like massive amount of praise in various fields she gets from many characters that mention her , her getting away with things or not being able to call her on something or just her portrayal in inquisition.Writers bias is obvious even without writers reinforcing it out of universe. 

[Former_Fiend]

Then why don't you ever complain about Bhelen practically changing dwarven society and pretty much being the correct option?

 

Also, how about the fact that a dwarf becomes the ruler of an entire marcher city state or the fact that an elf, dwarf, or qunari can become a comte despite how radical a non-human gaining a noble title is.

 

Thing is, he doesn't. Aside from the fact that, as I recall them - it has been a while, admittedly - the ending slides made Bhelen's reforms out to be more of a struggle than they did with Leliana's, twelve years later in DAI, there's no real indication that his struggles have taken effect. I recall there being some threads back not long after release mentioning war table missions that show the situation in Orzammar is still pretty much the same.

 

I may need to look it up, but I do I remember because I specifically called out the fact that if they had Leliana's reforms from the main game stick when they didn't with Bhelen's would cement Leli as a sue for me, and here we are.

 

As for the Kirkwall stuff, let's break that down. Firstly, Kirkwall is one tiny city state, not three fourths of a continent. Secondly, we never really see any anti-dwarf racism in Kirkwall in the seven years we spent in that town; the Dwarven Merchant's guild is apparently a big power player there, owning a district in High Town, and Varric is a native son as well as a nobleman, and he committed serious resources to it's restoration. So, yeah, him being made Viscount, especially when it's established that no one else wants the job? Not a huge deal, anywhere near on the level of Leliana's over all reforms to the chantry.

 

As for the comte thing, again, minor title in a small city state, and one we get no real follow up on to see how that plays out. It's also something I don't imagine we'll ever get any real follow up on, like how the Warden could become Tyern of Gwaren. Just one of those things that's going to be quietly swept under the rug and left to our imagination.

[Bleachrude]

I don't see why Varric being made Viscount is so divisive?

 

I don't get the impression that Kirkwall's viscount is a hereditary position (the nobles elect the viscount) unlike Starkhaven and there has never been any indication of discrimination against dwarves so why would electing Varric be lore-breaking/divisive?

[Jaison1986]

I don't see why Varric being made Viscount is so divisive?

 

I don't get the impression that Kirkwall's viscount is a hereditary position (the nobles elect the viscount) unlike Starkhaven and there has never been any indication of discrimination against dwarves so why would electing Varric be lore-breaking/divisive?

 

It is actually hereditary, but as the game stated, when a viscount dies and there is no living heir, the nobles must elect a new leader.

 

I don't find the idea of Varric becoming viscount so outlandish, considering that I could totally see the nobles thinking that the title is cursed after so many quick tragedies happening to the heads of state in recent years. They might as well shove the position to the next competent person.

[MadMadCarl]

I think that is part of their dynamic to make you trust the dudes you wouldn't on a first stance:

[Qun00]

It makes me feel that Vivienne sucks nug balls.

[vertigomez]

There's still plenty of time for things to go awry.

And they will, because this is Dragon Age. People are flawed and organizations are easily corrupt. I wouldn't act like it's the shining College upon the hill just yet.

[Lumix19]

It actually makes me somewhat physically ill to say this, but I'm inclined to agree, at least somewhat.
 
I don't necessarily have a problem with the College working in and of itself. I may come off as pro-templar sometimes - and I do see some of their points - but the college isn't too far off from what I felt the right solution was, so it working doesn't bother me.
 
What bothers me is that Leliana is able to inact all of these amazing, radical changes and suffer no real backlash or consequences for it. Minor uprising that, if you steel/harden her, is dispersed within months. Aside from that, everything works perfectly. And that just doesn't fit what Dragon Age is. It's way too idealistic for this setting to have someone just be able to say "Rules changed!" without really having to work and strive for it and then have that work.
 
So, just the fact that she's able to accomplish all that she does is more indicative of her being a sue than anything else.

Not showing it can be the same as it not happening in fiction.
 
The slides give the indication of she declared it and it was so, with some protest. Even if the writers have a two hundred page novel worked up in the office detailing her arduous struggle to make these reforms a reality, we get no real sense of that. So as far as we're concerned, what we got is what there was. 
 
And again, I just think that on the whole it was just too much. I'm all for the status quo changing in big ways, but they've established a tone for this setting and Leliana as Divine just did not fit that.

That's fairly arbitrary and open to interpretation. "It's not consistent with setting" isn't really the best argument, no offence, because we aren't the ones who wrote it, that was the writers.

[Boost32]

I don't see why Varric being made Viscount is so divisive?
 
I don't get the impression that Kirkwall's viscount is a hereditary position (the nobles elect the viscount) unlike Starkhaven and there has never been any indication of discrimination against dwarves so why would electing Varric be lore-breaking/divisive?

It is hereditary, only when a Viscount dies without any heir a new one is elected.
And its divisive because Hawke can be the Viscount and they just ignored it and made Varric the Viscount to make everything equal.

[berelinde]

Two years may seem like a long time, but it isn't. Both organizations, the College of Enchanters and the Circle alike, are still feeling out their boundaries and establishing policy to guide them in the years to come. That said, the College of Enchanters was never "doomed to fail" as some would have folks believe. Mages have nothing to lose and everything to gain by proving to themselves and others that they are capable of functioning in integrated society, so that's what they're doing. Depending on the personal interpretation of the Chant of Light, that might even be their intended place. Andraste's teachings flat out state that mages who adhere to the Will of the Maker should be embraced as brothers, not cast out or reviled, so it's pretty clear that she believed that long lasting peace was possible.

 

It's no secret that Leliana gets away with a lot based on sheer force of personality, but Leliana is not the only actor in this scenario. Depending on your choices, she may not even be alive anymore. The College of Enchanters is no less viable if Cassandra or even Vivienne herself is Divine.

 

As much as Vivienne abhorred the idea of mage versus mage, it doesn't have to be bloody war. Violent conflict is not the only way to fight. Non-violent mutual competition may keep both sides under control as they vie with each other to determine which organization proves a greater asset to the people of Thedas. By setting up similar but opposing organizations, they've created a situation where both sides are kept in check. If either goes off on a bender and threatens innocent bystanders, the other is poised to swoop in, fix the mess, and claim they were right all along. Neither side wants that, so both sides are highly motivated to preserve the peace. Everybody wins.

[riverbanks]

So how do you feel about Leliana's College of Enchanters not backfiring.

 

Indifferent. She's not my Divine, so what happens in other people's games doesn't affect mine either way.

 

All in all, it seems mage freedom is actually working. What are your thoughts?

 

You seem to base a lot of your arguments on epilogue slides... in a series with a consistent history of dismissing epilogue slides in favour of whatever new direction the writers want to take the story. Remember when the Ferelden monarch gave the Circle autonomy in Origins? Only for the next game to come out and say, actually, no it didn't work out like that at all? At least wait for the next game before you invest so much of your emotional stability into epilogue slides that may end up being handwaved in a blink when the writers decide that that's not where they wanted to go.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Chances are that neither the College or the Circles will backfire or be destroyed the franchise's immediate future.

 

It's a new status quo and will likely stay the same at least until a possible DA 5 . 

[AresKeith]

oh look another Darkone ego thread 

[Xilizhra]

You seem to base a lot of your arguments on epilogue slides... in a series with a consistent history of dismissing epilogue slides in favour of whatever new direction the writers want to take the story. Remember when the Ferelden monarch gave the Circle autonomy in Origins? Only for the next game to come out and say, actually, no it didn't work out like that at all? At least wait for the next game before you invest so much of your emotional stability into epilogue slides that may end up being handwaved in a blink when the writers decide that that's not where they wanted to go.

That happened in the one game where they didn't know if they'd be making any sequels. For Inquisition, all epilogues would be written to take sequels into account.

[riverbanks]

That happened in the one game where they didn't know if they'd be making any sequels. For Inquisition, all epilogues would be written to take sequels into account.

 

They knew DA2 was gonna have a sequel or several and took that into account when writing the epilogues Varric narrates, but that didn't stop them from dismissing or later changing things that were said in those epilogues too. Nothing is beyond the writers' reach if they want to change it.

 

Manage expectations, is all I'm saying. I'm very happy with how Cassandra is managing both the reformed Templars and the new Colleges in my own game because that's exactly the endgame I wanted, so I get the feeling of validation in achieving your desired endgame and seeing it not fall apart in two seconds - but I also know there is literally nothing stopping the writer's room from handwaving everything we've worked for and overriding all of our "endgames" with a new direction of their own over the next few games, because they have done exactly that so many times before. They just did it again right now with Trespasser, overlaying more or less the same status quo onto everyone, regardless of who your Divine was or which faction you recruited. Nothing stopping them from changing things again.

 

(Not that I think any of it matters in the end, mind you - they finally seem as exausted of this pointless, dead horse mages versus templars debate as most of us have been for years now. I'm being cautiously optimistic in taking the streamlining in the Trespasser slides as a good indicator that they don't care to extend this charade anymore, and just want to move on to new and more interesting directions within this universe. There's so much more to Thedas than just wah wah mages wah wah Templars, hopefully we can move on from this argument now and go explore different issues out in the world.)

[Amne YA]

let me remind you that leliana is a Scyzo  . yes the changed  are great  and i aprove all of them .  but i do not trust leliana . she will  **** things up some how . i'm sure. if only  casandra did the same changes to the chantry i would choose her 100 time over leliana cause that women is unstable .