let me remind you that leliana is a Scyzo . yes the changed are great and i aprove all of them . but i do not trust leliana . she will **** things up some how . i'm sure. if only casandra did the same changes to the chantry i would choose her 100 time over leliana cause that women is unstable .
TKS is that you?
"Because I am not a monster. If they must die, I would rather they die in comfort."
"Live well, while time remains."
~Solas~
I think as well Bioware is going to move on from the mage/Templar debate but at the same time I think this is a mistake BECAUSE it is what separated Thedas as a setting from your bog standard fantasy setting. If magic is no different than say Elder scrolls magic, how is the setting different from any other standard fantasy setting?
I honestly don't see what makes Thedas more appealing/different in the post Inquisition era than what we had at the beginning of Origins. I'm also including the loss of the Chantry/Chant as being a major influence on the setting. Thedas as presented in Origins was a fantasy world where magic was dangerous not just to others but to the mage itself AND a setting where monotheism was by and large the default. Can you actually name a setting in fantasy (books, movies, games) other than maybe Wheel of Time that was structured with that?
Sure, people hated this idea and wanted there "ideal world" but this turns Thedas into your typical fantasy world and in a lot of ways, it actually weakens the appeal of the setting since quite frankly, nothing about the post Inquisition world actually makes it unique ("Oh look, the plot of DA4 is another ""we're going to save the world" but against a backdrop of a setting that you could pull from your typical fantasy world). What makes say Thedas different from say the Forgotten Realms now?
TKS is that you?
Nah, that just another voice of reason here.
I think as well Bioware is going to move on from the mage/Templar debate but at the same time I think this is a mistake BECAUSE it is what separated Thedas as a setting from your bog standard fantasy setting. If magic is no different than say Elder scrolls magic, how is the setting different from any other standard fantasy setting?
I honestly don't see what makes Thedas more appealing/different in the post Inquisition era than what we had at the beginning of Origins. I'm also including the loss of the Chantry/Chant as being a major influence on the setting. Thedas as presented in Origins was a fantasy world where magic was dangerous not just to others but to the mage itself AND a setting where monotheism was by and large the default. Can you actually name a setting in fantasy (books, movies, games) other than maybe Wheel of Time that was structured with that?
Sure, people hated this idea and wanted there "ideal world" but this turns Thedas into your typical fantasy world and in a lot of ways, it actually weakens the appeal of the setting since quite frankly, nothing about the post Inquisition world actually makes it unique ("Oh look, the plot of DA4 is another ""we're going to save the world" but against a backdrop of a setting that you could pull from your typical fantasy world). What makes say Thedas different from say the Forgotten Realms now?
Saving the world in the name of a darkly-toned magocratic empire would be a bit different, would it not? Not to mention that the qunari are still fairly unique. And isn't the world still dominated by monotheism?
That's fairly arbitrary and open to interpretation. "It's not consistent with setting" isn't really the best argument, no offence, because we aren't the ones who wrote it, that was the writers.
The writers are perfectly capable of being inconsistent in their own work. They're human, just like the rest of us.
I think as well Bioware is going to move on from the mage/Templar debate but at the same time I think this is a mistake BECAUSE it is what separated Thedas as a setting from your bog standard fantasy setting. If magic is no different than say Elder scrolls magic, how is the setting different from any other standard fantasy setting?
I disagree that the low form of pew pew magic is the only thing that sets this universe apart from others. There's a lot of unique lore involving the known and unknown history of different races, the politics and war history between the known and unknown nations and territories, the high magic in the form of archdemons, Blights and darkspawn, demons, spirits and the Veil, how a lot of that history and high magic tie back into the different religions and credos in the world, how those credos shape socities, etc. Just like the pew pew gameplay magic is not what sets Elder Scrolls apart, but the borderline ridiculously complex system of divinity and how it shapes that universe into existing and not at the same time.
What set DAO apart from other fantasy games of the time was not the magic debacle, that wasn't even a big issue until DA2 made it into one. The Circles issue there was a side subplot, peripheral at best to all the other complex issues the world presented, until DA2 brought it to the foreground and made everything about mages and Templars, at the expense of everything else that is unique to the universe (so much that bringing back ancient darkspawn, the Dalish, the qunari and the dwarven caste system in DAI felt a bit dissonant at first, because we'd lost track of those discussions by that point). But we don't have to stay stuck in that pointless loop or circular arguments about this one subject alone forever, there is a lot more that is unique to this setting that we can turn our heads to, give the same importance and make the new debacle of the week in this universe.
Saving the world in the name of a darkly-toned magocratic empire would be a bit different, would it not? Not to mention that the qunari are still fairly unique. And isn't the world still dominated by monotheism?
Nope. Magocratic empires, be it either as a current day antagonist or historical footnote of a setting or even just background fluff _IS_ one of the most common tropes in fantasy fiction. Bioware itself got started on this thanks to Baldur's Gate. Red Wizards of Thay anyone?
As Former Fiend mentions, the writers are human and can make mistakes and I think they made one by explicitly showing that other deities exist in Thedas. Monotheism can exist but I think inquisition made for a stronger argument against it and especially once dread wolf starts openly showing his powers, I actually expect a decrease in the power of the Chantry as well...The Chant/chantry is based on the medieval catholic church but writers tend to forget that this was NEW Testament based religion -aka belief is based on faith alone. In the old testament, it wasn't Monotheist - non hebrews had their deities and thus the god of the old testament was an ACTIVIST. In the old testament, it wasn't a question of whether or not god existed but whether or not he was more powerful than any other.
The quanari, admitedly their look and the qun itself I can't think of any close analogy - the closest might be World of warcraft taurens, but really, other than "they have horns", they have absolutely nothing in common - the quanari do NOT look like ox-men a la tauren.
How was the magic debate NOT a big thing in Origins when 2 of their 4 big quests i(I consider the big quests the circle, redcliffe, elves and the dwarves) involved "demonic possession" - circle and redcliffe and another one dealt with blood magic -the elves. Only orzammar I would argue was indepedent of the "magtic is dangerous" theme of Origins.
I'm not talking about the power level of magic or even the background lore (EVERY fantasy world has "unique background lore") I'm talking about how we the players view the setting.
How was the magic debate NOT a big thing in Origins when 2 of their 4 big quests i(I consider the big quests the circle, redcliffe, elves and the dwarves) involved "demonic possession" - circle and redcliffe and another one dealt with blood magic -the elves. Only orzammar I would argue was indepedent of the "magtic is dangerous" theme of Origins.
I'm not talking about the power level of magic or even the background lore (EVERY fantasy world has "unique background lore") I'm talking about how we the players view the setting.
Yes, and I was specifically talking about the "mages versus Templars" debate not the "magic is dangerous" debate. There's no real debate of the second, magic is dangerous in this setting, no matter how powerful or how in control you think you are, that much is established. How we deal with that is another issue. But we're talking about completely different things now; ultimately my point was that this world is not shaped solely by that tired m/t argument and hopefully the series can now move on from that discussion and into other interesting subjects, not that the magic of this world itself should be levelled out and made irrelevant.
Yes, and I was specifically talking about the "mages versus Templars" debate not the "magic is dangerous" debate. There's no real debate of the second, magic is dangerous in this setting, no matter how powerful or how in control you think you are, that much is established. How we deal with that is another issue. But we're talking about completely different things now; ultimately my point was that this world is not shaped solely by that tired m/t argument and hopefully the series can now move on from that discussion and into other interesting subjects, not that the magic of this world itself should be levelled out and made irrelevant.
The devs have said this will be the last game where the mage/templar issue takes any note, so pretty much this is the last game where this discussion occurs.
The devs have said this will be the last game where the mage/templar issue takes any note, so pretty much this is the last game where this discussion occurs.
Good to know. Thank the Maker, the Creators, the Stone, the Lady of the Sky, the Nug King, and whatever other deities are out there for this blessing.
The way I look at it Origins just laid the foundation for the different problems going on in thedas. We got a taste of everyones situation from the dalish, city elves, dwarves, circle mages and Templars, etc. DA2 focused on one of the problems Mage-Templar and introduced the Qunari threat. Then DA:I came and wrapped up the mage/Templar while further teasing the Qunari Threat to be the next event to reach its climax while setting up two new events Elves and Wardens.
Nope. Magocratic empires, be it either as a current day antagonist or historical footnote of a setting or even just background fluff _IS_ one of the most common tropes in fantasy fiction. Bioware itself got started on this thanks to Baldur's Gate. Red Wizards of Thay anyone?
What about as a protagonist?
As Former Fiend mentions, the writers are human and can make mistakes and I think they made one by explicitly showing that other deities exist in Thedas. Monotheism can exist but I think inquisition made for a stronger argument against it and especially once dread wolf starts openly showing his powers, I actually expect a decrease in the power of the Chantry as well...The Chant/chantry is based on the medieval catholic church but writers tend to forget that this was NEW Testament based religion -aka belief is based on faith alone. In the old testament, it wasn't Monotheist - non hebrews had their deities and thus the god of the old testament was an ACTIVIST. In the old testament, it wasn't a question of whether or not god existed but whether or not he was more powerful than any other.
The idea of no ancient magical figures existing beyond what the Chantry claims seems to point to a much shallower world for me. It implies that the humans might have everything figured out already, and how is that satisfying?
I think as well Bioware is going to move on from the mage/Templar debate but at the same time I think this is a mistake BECAUSE it is what separated Thedas as a setting from your bog standard fantasy setting. If magic is no different than say Elder scrolls magic, how is the setting different from any other standard fantasy setting?
I'm a little weary of the mage/templar debate and wouldn't mind seeing a civilization where magic is commonplace and not feared.
Besides, what fundamentally makes magic "different" in Dragon Age compared to other fantasy settings is that it's not simply "wizards are better than everybody else." Yes, mages are powerful, but their abilities come with very serious drawbacks - demonic possession and the fear of the general populace.
And magic is quite limited in DA compared to, say, Dungeons and Dragons; magic can't raise the dead (aside from reviving unconscious or near-dead party members) or teleport you massive distances in an instant or make food appear out of thin air.
Solas/Elves are the new circle mages and the inquistion trying to stop them are the new templars. Mages vs Templars 2.0
It's an oversimplification but it has some truthiness.
I'm a little weary of the mage/templar debate and wouldn't mind seeing a civilization where magic is commonplace and not feared.
Besides, what fundamentally makes magic "different" in Dragon Age compared to other fantasy settings is that it's not simply "wizards are better than everybody else." Yes, mages are powerful, but their abilities come with very serious drawbacks - demonic possession and the fear of the general populace.
And magic is quite limited in DA compared to, say, Dungeons and Dragons; magic can't raise the dead (aside from reviving unconscious or near-dead party members) or teleport you massive distances in an instant or make food appear out of thin air.
But the College of Enchanters as the OP mentions INVALIDATES the whole argument that demonic possession is a problem and that the populace has to fear magic.
As well, what does magic power level has to do with anything? Absolute power level of magic doesn't mean anything, it is what the power level is compared to the average person in the setting and in Thedas, a mage is immeasureably more powerful than normal joe blow. We're not dealing with Hyborean magic where magic was in of itself weak ( Summoning and controlling monsters was what made magic powerful in hyborean tales). Magic in AD&D was powerful btut hat didn't change the fact that at high levels, fighters would trounce magic users yet magic was still way more powerful than your average peasant.
What about as a protagonist?
Unless Dragon Age 4 becomes a strategy game, dragon age doesn't allow you to play actual nations. The best would be as how it was actually done in Inquisition...although I wonder what the protagonists would be in DA4...I wonder if they would allow for us to actually be a Tevinter templar...weirdly, across the three Dragon age games, you never actually play as a templar. You get templar abilities if you want but you are ever a templar per se.
snip
Honestly that's how I view the situation also.
The writers are perfectly capable of being inconsistent in their own work. They're human, just like the rest of us.
It actually makes me somewhat physically ill to say this, but I'm inclined to agree, at least somewhat.
I don't necessarily have a problem with the College working in and of itself. I may come off as pro-templar sometimes - and I do see some of their points - but the college isn't too far off from what I felt the right solution was, so it working doesn't bother me.
What bothers me is that Leliana is able to inact all of these amazing, radical changes and suffer no real backlash or consequences for it. Minor uprising that, if you steel/harden her, is dispersed within months. Aside from that, everything works perfectly. And that just doesn't fit what Dragon Age is. It's way too idealistic for this setting to have someone just be able to say "Rules changed!" without really having to work and strive for it and then have that work.
So, just the fact that she's able to accomplish all that she does is more indicative of her being a sue than anything else.
It's because she has the Maker on her side!
I know it seems kind of ridiculous, but nobody knows if He exists or not in Dragon Age and if he does it would explain Leliana's apparent "Mary Sue" inclinations. She has divine guidance and protection.
...
It's a bit more problematic for hardened Leliana.
Give it time. This is Dragon Age. When has magic *not* been the root of all the terrible things that happen in this series?
Give it time. This is Dragon Age. When has magic *not* been the root of all the terrible things that happen in this series?
Does this count?
Does this count?
Okay, fine. 99% of all the bad things that happen in this series.
But still, let me elaborate.
I meant all of the major earth Thedas-shaking events.
This is College of Magi first gen. Let's wait until the mages start marrying to increase the probability of having mage children, etc. etc. etc.
Tevinter didn't get the way it is in one generation. Only time will tell.
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