55 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumix19]

But was that Abelas writing that? Or was he one of the new ones born into the Veiled world who was merely taught the histories? Also, that quote makes it seem like they thought the other evanuris were still on the loose. They didn't know they had been locked away by Fen'Harel? And just how did the legends the Dalish pass down start?

Yes, I think it's clear that Abelas considered them gods, and I agree with you on that. My point was that if he knew the truth about them, that they were just powerful spirits/mages, then he would not consider them gods. Same as how Solas does not consider them gods. Like Solas said, they weren't gods, unless you stretch the definition of the word to the point of absurdity. And yes, I agree that it depends on individual perspective and reasoning. The people in Amaranthine (if you saved it in Awakening) saw the Hero and company take down numerous monstrous enemies by using many special abilities and techniques. To humans, they are just extraordinary people. To children, they might appear as superheroes. To city elves, they might appear as gods.

I don't think he would consider them as infallible, I can agree with that. But Abelas may not have thought so in the first place.
The Amaranthine example is a good one, I suspect that that similar to what happened with the Elvhen.
Solas is however using his interpretation of a god and I don't necessarily agree.
I suspect his greater issue isn't that the Evanuris claimed themselves as gods but that they claimed the ultimate moral authority. I think people relied on them to make the ultimate judgments for the good of the elvhen people rather than thinking for themselves.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

She was one of them.  No record of her history could rightfully exclude them.  

 

They weren't included in the context of being records of Mythal's history.They were songs and prayers and statues to her murderers still just laying about her temple.

[Lumix19]

They weren't included in the context of being records of Mythal's history.They were songs and prayers and statues to her murderers still just laying about her temple.

With so little history remaining they probably thought it was best to preserve what there was, even if it glorified their enemies.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Abelas was willing to destroy the Well of Sorrows, the entire reason they were even protecting the temple in the first place, to prevent "the undeserving" from acquiring it. But he was willing to leave up otherwise unimportant statues to the people who killed his goddess? 

[Phoe77]

Realistically, what good would getting rid of the statues have done them?  The sentinels already knew, more or less, what had happened, no one else was supposed to get in, and the only time they were awake in the intervening centuries were when the temple was in danger of being breached.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Does there need to be any other practical reason for sentinels forever bound to the service of their goddess to bother to get rid of monuments to her killers inside her own sacred ground? 

[Phoe77]

Judging by the fact that they did not, in fact, get rid of them, I'm going to guess the answer is "yes".  

 

But seriously, there are any number of reasons.  Maybe they believe it's important not to ignore any members of the pantheon, like the Avvar.  Maybe the infighting among the Evanuris was well known and their "betrayal" of Mythal wasn't terribly shocking?  Maybe, like someone else said, they didn't want to destroy any more lore without cause.  Abelas obviously only wanted to destroy the Well after the temple had been breached, after all.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Wouldn't killing their goddess be the highest possible cause to remove them?

[Lumix19]

Wouldn't killing their goddess be the highest possible cause to remove them?

Possibly. But their murder of Mythal doesn't erase that the Evanuris used to be benevolent, and that people worshipped them. Keeping the lore allows them to document the sad rise and fall of the Evanuris. And it shows respect, their goddess was not the only one, just their patron.

 

Judging by the fact that they did not, in fact, get rid of them, I'm going to guess the answer is "yes".  

 

But seriously, there are any number of reasons.  Maybe they believe it's important not to ignore any members of the pantheon, like the Avvar.  Maybe the infighting among the Evanuris was well known and their "betrayal" of Mythal wasn't terribly shocking?  Maybe, like someone else said, they didn't want to destroy any more lore without cause.  Abelas obviously only wanted to destroy the Well after the temple had been breached, after all.

Solas does tell a story that Falon'din, once upon a time, came into conflict with the rest of the gods when his desire for worshippers became insatiable. So I suspect wars amongst the gods weren't unusual.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Did the Evanuris used to be benevolent? I don't think that was the implication of either the Temple of Mythal or Trespasser. I got the sense they were always monsters.

[Phoe77]

There was also almost a civil war among the gods when Falon'Din and Elgar'nan got into an argument, according to a codex in Trespasser I think.  The only reason that didn't happen was apparently thanks go Mythal.  

[Lumix19]

Did the Evanuris used to be benevolent? I don't think that was the implication of either the Temple of Mythal or Trespasser. I got the sense they were always monsters.

The pages of this book—memory?—describe an elf approaching a city of glass spires so deeply blue they ache. The city's outskirts are wrapped in lakes of mist, and figures stroll along the pearly, glowing strips as if they walked on solid ground. Groves of trees woven into enormous parks shelter elves in quiet hollows, while other elves walk below a river churning along an invisible shoal in the air.

The scene hums with quiet talk and contentment as the memory's maker reaches the city's gates, already thrown open wide.

 

-

 

The pages of this book—memory?—show a solemn group of elves in an ampitheater of living wood, entire trees grown into seats and stairs for the listeners to recline on. Two other elves and a spirit of learning are speaking in turn on ways to bend the properties of the material world when casting spells. At the end, the spirit, with the air of a senior lecturer, floats forward and booms in a surprisingly deep voice.

"The unchanging world is delicate: spells of power invite disaster and annihilation. The unchanging world is stubborn: the pull of the earth fiercely resists making fire run like water or stone rise like mist. The unchanging world rings with its own harmony. Listen with fearless hearts, and great works will unfold."

 

Codex entries such as these do paint Elvhen society, at least at some point, as peaceful and harmonious. And some claim that the Evanuris did great things:

 

In the light of the veilfire, the runes seem to shift, coiling and uncoiling like snakes. A thunderous voice shatters the stillness, shouting:

"Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever!"

 

Because remember that whatever Mythal was, she was also an Evanuris and clearly benevolent and worthy of Solas' respect.

 

There was also almost a civil war among the gods when Falon'Din and Elgar'nan got into an argument, according to a codex in Trespasser I think.  The only reason that didn't happen was apparently thanks go Mythal.  

The pages of this book—memory?—show an narrow plateau on top of a mountain, Two armored figures—one in gold, one in black—are fighting in the snow. Steel flickers so fast the air hums. Blood dots the ground. They do not stop for breath. The one in black makes no sound as a blade parts his throat.

"Mythal, in her wisdom, interceded in an argument between Elgar'nan and Falon'Din. With clever words, she convince them to settle their grievance through a battle of their champions. Elgar'nan and Falon'Din agreed, and set their champions against each other rather than declare war among the gods. May those knights long be remembered, and Mythal's wisdom be praised."

[Abyss108]

Do we know whether they even cared about Mythal? They were bound to her, they were her slaves... Maybe they are physical incapable of destroying any part of her temple due to a geas.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The pages of this book—memory?—describe an elf approaching a city of glass spires so deeply blue they ache. The city's outskirts are wrapped in lakes of mist, and figures stroll along the pearly, glowing strips as if they walked on solid ground. Groves of trees woven into enormous parks shelter elves in quiet hollows, while other elves walk below a river churning along an invisible shoal in the air.

The scene hums with quiet talk and contentment as the memory's maker reaches the city's gates, already thrown open wide.

 

-

 

The pages of this book—memory?—show a solemn group of elves in an ampitheater of living wood, entire trees grown into seats and stairs for the listeners to recline on. Two other elves and a spirit of learning are speaking in turn on ways to bend the properties of the material world when casting spells. At the end, the spirit, with the air of a senior lecturer, floats forward and booms in a surprisingly deep voice.

"The unchanging world is delicate: spells of power invite disaster and annihilation. The unchanging world is stubborn: the pull of the earth fiercely resists making fire run like water or stone rise like mist. The unchanging world rings with its own harmony. Listen with fearless hearts, and great works will unfold."

 

Codex entries such as these do paint Elvhen society, at least at some point, as peaceful and harmonious. And some claim that the Evanuris did great things:

 

In the light of the veilfire, the runes seem to shift, coiling and uncoiling like snakes. A thunderous voice shatters the stillness, shouting:

"Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever!"

 

Because remember that whatever Mythal was, she was also an Evanuris and clearly benevolent and worthy of Solas' respect.

 

The pages of this book—memory?—show an narrow plateau on top of a mountain, Two armored figures—one in gold, one in black—are fighting in the snow. Steel flickers so fast the air hums. Blood dots the ground. They do not stop for breath. The one in black makes no sound as a blade parts his throat.

"Mythal, in her wisdom, interceded in an argument between Elgar'nan and Falon'Din. With clever words, she convince them to settle their grievance through a battle of their champions. Elgar'nan and Falon'Din agreed, and set their champions against each other rather than declare war among the gods. May those knights long be remembered, and Mythal's wisdom be praised."

 

Those memories don't mean the Evanuris used to be benevolent, it just means there were some classes of people that lived in the Elvhenan that weren't horribly oppressed. Even the Imperium has that. 

 

Also, Mythal sounds like she's only benevolent relative to the rest of the Evanuris, she was still a mage posing as a god-queen. And many of the stories say she was ruthless and brutal at times as well. 

 

 

Do we know whether they even cared about Mythal? They were bound to her, they were her slaves... Maybe they are physical incapable of destroying any part of her temple due to a geas.

 

Abelas will only ally with you if you show respect to Mythal. But he still tries to destroy the most sacred part of the Temple to prevent any outsiders from using it. The geas itself is also the will of Mythal and she is obsessed with vengeance against her betrayers. If anything I'd almost expect that geas to force them to smash images of them in her temple.

[Lumix19]

Those memories don't mean the Evanuris used to be benevolent, it just means there were some classes of people that lived in the Elvhenan that weren't horribly oppressed. Even the Imperium has that.

Also, Mythal sounds like she's only benevolent relative to the rest of the Evanuris, she was still a mage posing as a god-queen. And many of the stories say she was ruthless and brutal at times as well.



Abelas will only ally with you if you show respect to Mythal. But he still tries to destroy the most sacred part of the Temple to prevent any outsiders from using it. The geas itself is also the will of Mythal and she is obsessed with vengeance against her betrayers. If anything I'd almost expect that geas to force them to smash images of them in her temple.

Solas describes her as the best of them, who genuinely cared for her people. He also states she was the Mother, which encompasses a wide range of states, both fair and harsh, in protection of her people.
Solas also seems to indicate that the Evanuris got worse as time went on, so if they were always monsters than they were the kind Solas could put up with. Or course until they went too far.
But people did seem to worship them out of genuine reverence, not out of fear of death.

[Phoe77]

My understanding is that some previous conflict allowed the Evanuris to claim godhood.  I would assume that whatever they did was in service to the elven people in some way, and they also punished the Forbidden Ones for not doing their part to help the People during another great crisis.  They certainly eventually developed petty and capricious sides, but that doesn't mean that they didn't also do good things for their worshipers as well.  Just look at the Olympians.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yeah but my point is that doing some good things doesn't necessarily mean they aren't monsters. To me, Solas made it sounds like their greed and cruelty (which they always had) pushed them to do worse and worse things. And if he was contrasting the rest of the Evanuris to Mythal, then that implies none of them except her cared about their people. 

 

Also Solas is a genocidal maniac, so he can clearly put up with a lot. Even so, he rebelled against them even before creating the Veil. 

[Dai Grepher]

That the person who wrote the runes states that he will shed his name and "only be known by the sorrow that cuts my heart" and we know that Abelas means "Sorrow" in Elvish, it's a pretty solid guess that he was indeed the author.

 

Yeah but there's a letter in the Deep Roads with "Solas" written on it, because solas means pride. That doesn't mean Solas wrote it. I understand your reference is different, as the author identifies with the "sorrow", but that doesn't mean he took the same of sorrow, or that this wasn't some previous elf who took the name, with Abelas being a later successor.

 

It's a good guess, I'll admit. But still just a guess.

[Dai Grepher]

I don't think he would consider them as infallible, I can agree with that. But Abelas may not have thought so in the first place.
The Amaranthine example is a good one, I suspect that that similar to what happened with the Elvhen.
Solas is however using his interpretation of a god and I don't necessarily agree.
I suspect his greater issue isn't that the Evanuris claimed themselves as gods but that they claimed the ultimate moral authority. I think people relied on them to make the ultimate judgments for the good of the elvhen people rather than thinking for themselves.

 

Thanks. I understand your point about perspectives and definitions. It seems to me that the elves were always really stupid people. So I can see them, and even Abelas thinking the evanuris were some type of "gods".

 

Solas might be right in how the evanuris came to be seen as gods though. Slowly. As they sat around making temples, and new magics, and banishing Forbidden Ones, and judging cases as you pointed out, the elves slowly began to see them as gods.

 

I think the real problem I have with the elves is that they considered the evanuris the creators of the world. And thus sprang their legend of being creator gods, when that was clearly false. I guess in the end it's a trivial point. At the end of the day who cares what elves believe? The true story is all that matters.
 

[Dai Grepher]

Abelas was willing to destroy the Well of Sorrows, the entire reason they were even protecting the temple in the first place, to prevent "the undeserving" from acquiring it. But he was willing to leave up otherwise unimportant statues to the people who killed his goddess? 

 

Same case with the Guardian. The Gauntlet had the spirit of the Betrayer, yet the Guardian's purpose was to protect the Urn from the unworthy.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't think that was supposed to be actual ghost of Maferath. But regardless, it's purpose in the temple was specifically to tell the story of Maferath's jealousy and betrayal. It's purpose was to teach pilgrims about how terrible the murder of the prophet was and also explain why he was motivated to do so.

 

The statue of Elgar'nan by contrast says:

 

"Elgar'nan, Wrath and Thunder,

Give us Glory.

Give us Victory over, the Earth that shakes our cities.

Strike the usurpers with your lightning.

Burn the ground with your gaze.

Bring Winged Death against those who throw down our work.

 

Elgar'nan, help us tame the land."

 

There's also a song to Sylaise that ends with "We gladly give ourselves to your service."

 

There's no mention of the betrayal and murder of Mythal.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

I'm kind of wondering if we have not heard from Mythal's perspective much (outside the "things happened that were never meant to happen!" that "she was betrayed, as the world was betrayed!" and that she is holding out for a reckoning "that will shake the very heavens!") because her perspective complicates Solas/Fen'Harel's story a bit more. Her lines could easily be interpreted as her supporting Solas, or as being angry at Solas (the world being betrayed sounds a bit more like she's angry at the Veil). So, what went down with the other gods could be something she regrets, but not something she thinks warrants her peers from being stricken from her temple?

 

It could also be because the Temple of Mythal was really the only place in the main game where we could start seeing more complicated views of the Gods, and that it is a lore/gameplay moment.

I prefer Lady Insanity's theory, that mythal and quite a few others are agents of the titans, willingly or otherwise.
Who else could have a grand plan for the fate of the world but the world itself?

[BansheeOwnage]

Did the Evanuris used to be benevolent? I don't think that was the implication of either the Temple of Mythal or Trespasser. I got the sense they were always monsters.

I would think they didn't start off so monstrous at least, and that they got worse as they gained power and influence. Solas did say they worked their way up to "godhood". If the theory that the elvhen (or at least the "first of the people") are spirits or partly spirits, they may have had their purposes corrupted and been turned into demons.

 

It certainly seems that way when you compare what they were said to have done by the Dalish (which was probably true at one point) to what Solas said they ended up doing. Andruil turned from the Goddess of the Hunt to a goddess of sacrifice (we do know she at least went crazy from battling the denizens of the Void). Falon'din started off as a guide to the dead, but ended up killing people to fulfill his job description better. Seems like the kind of logic a single-minded spirit might use.

[BansheeOwnage]

I prefer Lady Insanity's theory, that mythal and quite a few others are agents of the titans, willingly or otherwise.
Who else could have a grand plan for the fate of the world but the world itself?

Well, anyone could have plans. Doesn't mean they can fulfill them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I would think they didn't start off so monstrous at least, and that they got worse as they gained power and influence. Solas did say they worked their way up to "godhood". If the theory that the elvhen (or at least the "first of the people") are spirits or partly spirits, they may have had their purposes corrupted and been turned into demons.

 

It certainly seems that way when you compare what they were said to have done by the Dalish (which was probably true at one point) to what Solas said they ended up doing. Andruil turned from the Goddess of the Hunt to a goddess of sacrifice (we do know she at least went crazy from battling the denizens of the Void). Falon'din started off as a guide to the dead, but ended up killing people to fulfill his job description better. Seems like the kind of logic a single-minded spirit might use.

 

I think the implication from What Pride Had Wrought and Trespasser was that the Dalish conception of their gods was entirely wrong. Andruil never taught the elves how to hunt, she only hunted them for sport (even before being driven mad by the void). Falon'din was never a guide for the dead (how could he be if he was a false god?), he was just obsessed with killing people to feed his ego.