444 réponses à ce sujet

[SinisterSquash]

I'd rather have the option to modify my human character's height and weight or body shape before I played as a different species. But I have seen it stated that providing any of those options would take considerable resources. 

[Panda]

There wouldn't be animation problems with Asari and Drell. Asari would get human female animations and Drell human female/male animations according gender. Since there is no real difference between size of Asari and human female, and Drell and human female/male there really can't be animation problems.

 

Also DAI's animation problems in my opinions are because races were such late addition and weren't incorporated properly. I don't think DAO had such problems.

[Killroy]

One reason that I think it could've worked in Andromeda (without knowing the story) is due to the fact that it's a new galaxy. Wouldn't everyone be seen as "alien" anyways? So no matter what, you'd be seen as a strange outsider.

That would only be true if we were defined by how others see us.

[Mdizzletr0n]

In ME:A,in the eyes of others, I definitely think that we should be.

[Killroy]

In ME:A,in the eyes of others, I definitely think that we should be.

...what? You think our characters should be defined by how the native Andromeda races see us?

[Mdizzletr0n]

To them, yes. Why should they just accept our characters just because? Why shouldn't the decisions and actions we make not affect their view of the protagonist?

[Killroy]

To them, yes. Why should they just accept our characters just because? Why shouldn't the decisions and actions we make not affect their view of the protagonist?

Where did I say the natives shouldn't have their own views of us?
You said adding multiple races could work because all the Milky Way races in Andromeda would be foreign. I said that would only make sense if we were defined by how others see us. But we're not.

[Mdizzletr0n]

What I'm saying is that if someone's never seen an Asari before, how would that be any different if they hadn't seen a human before either? So racially, it wouldn't need too much of a change to the story outside of those that are familiar. That way there's no more humans are special crap.

[Ghost Gal]

Yeah, unfortunately. Mass Effect: Andromeda would have been the perfect time to start since all the races are in the same boat, but Bioware is going human-only. Hopefully they change their minds like they did with Dragon Age: Inquisition. 

 

Same here. I won't hold my breath, but if it did happen I'd be happy.

 

I disagree. I don't play female characters the same way I play male characters. Having tone options and decision points can make gender choice more impactful.

 

And the same can't hold true for race selection? Just because you play non-humans the same as humans means everyone in the world does?

 

Race had less impact in Inquisition than unlocking certain perks for dialogue choices. Race selection is purely aesthetic in Inquisition outside of 2 or 3 brief mentions of your race here and there. It has no impact on your character or the game at all.

 

So? Female gender selection has even less impact than race selection, since apart from a few pronoun differences (people referring to you as "he/she" or "him/her") no one ever acknowledges your gender or treats you any differently for it. As of DA2, even culturally women are treated exactly the same as men. At least in DAO men tended to outnumber and outrank women in the military and nobility, several male characters made socially acceptable sexist comments toward a female PC, and people tended to be surprised to learn you're a woman on meeting you.

 

As of DA2 and DAI, the female gender is purely aesthetic since, from a technical standpoint, the only difference is a different body model, VO, and occasional pronoun use.

 

Yet you make meaning out of playing a purely aesthetic female character compared to a male one, since you slip into their skin, take into account various psychological, cultural, social, etc. gender norms and differences (even ones apparently not present in that reality), and use it influence how you view that character, how that character views the world, how you feel that character is viewed by the world.

 

Just because you won't put in the same effort playing non-human characters, you assume no one else does?

 

So just because you don't means nobody does? 

 

How do you make choices like a Quarian and not a human? How do they design the game to play differently for each race?

 

So... your argument still boils down to, "I can't do it, therefore no one else can"?

[Just Here For Popcorns]

Wow,so many angry and mad replies over one simple suggestion lol So this is the thread where I need to bring my popcorns instead.

[Sanunes]

What I'm saying is that if someone's never seen an Asari before, how would that be any different if they hadn't seen a human before either? So racially, it wouldn't need too much of a change to the story outside of those that are familiar. That way there's no more humans are special crap.

 

To me it doesn't matter how the races see me as the protagonist, but how that game is presented to me as the protagonist. You are correct by saying the races in the game would react to us the same, but I would want them to allow the game to feel like I am playing an Asari, Drell, or Human and not just a Human with a different skin.  Now I get for some people just having a different skin is enough for them, but for me and maybe others its not enough.

[Killroy]

What I'm saying is that if someone's never seen an Asari before, how would that be any different if they hadn't seen a human before either? So racially, it wouldn't need too much of a change to the story outside of those that are familiar. That way there's no more humans are special crap.

I don't know how to explain to you why this is dumb if you're not getting it yet.

[Killroy]

So... your argument still boils down to, "I can't do it, therefore no one else can"?

Give me an example of a decision that could or would be made differently based on each race's cultural perspective and explain how you arrived at each of those choices.

Pro-tip:You can't, because you can't think like aliens.

[Ghost Gal]

Give me an example of a decision that could or would be made differently based on each race's cultural perspective and explain how you arrived at each of those choices.

 

Pro-tip:You can't, because you can't think like aliens.

 

Why do I have a feeling you'd just move the goal posts no matter what I said?

 

If I said Mass Effect's aliens clearly aren't that foreign, since humans co-exist in an intergalactic community with them, and players can obviously communicate with, relate to, empathize with, befriend, and even romance alien companions, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine ourselves in an alien's specially-tailored suit and walking around in it (provided we learn enough about their planet, society, culture, etc), you'd probably just say, "Ha! Exactly! They're just reskinned humans, therefore the difference is superficial, therefore you might as well just play humans and have the same effect."

 

Even though I could probably counter with: "Why don't you give me an example of a decision that could or would be made differently based on each human gender's perspective and explain how you arrived at each of of those choices."

"Pro-tip: You can't, because male and female humans are exactly the same, except different body models and VO's."

 

If I said that some of the aliens' physiological, psychological, cultural differences, and social place within the galactic community is different enough that the experience as an alien wouldn't be exactly the same as a human (just the Quarian's relationship with the geth alone wouldn't be the same as Shepard's), you'd probably say, "Ha! Their cultural perspective and intergalactic place is so vastly different from humans that they'd have to completely rewrite all possible dialogue, conversations, and interactions with other characters that there's no way they could pour that many resources into it, so just stick to humans."

 

Can't there ever be a happy medium?

 

Look, cards on the table: I always loved roleplaying because it let me slip into characters' skins and walking around in them. The more different from me, the better. The better able to see through their eyes and experience their vastly different cultures and lives, the happier I am. I'll admit I'm still halfway through ME1, but it seems to me that while Mass Effect so far has been Shepard's story, Shepard's story starts out as one where humanity just recently entered the intergalactic community, feels oppressed because the aliens didn't immediately roll out the red carpet and give them the lion's share of power and resources, and want Shepard to positively represent (and further humanity's interests) by joining the Spectres, which quickly turns in stopping an omnicidal maniac from bringing back ancient civilization-devouring space locusts. (Or at least, that's what I've learned as of meeting Liara, whom I went and got first after becoming a Spectre.) 

 

True, Mass Effect's opening story wouldn't be the same with a non-human since the story opens with you whining that humanity isn't getting special treatment along with the rest of the humans... but I think playing similar sequences from the perspective of the other aliens would be fun. Shepard being human, the game assumes of course you want to further humanity's interests (either diplomatically via Paragon or aggressively via Renegade), but imagine some of those same "We're considering you as a candidate to be a Spectre, however you also need to track down proof that Seran is guilty" situations, running around the Citadel encountering other aliens and humans alike, only now you're hearing some of the same complaints with alien ears. Imagine listening to humans being denied their "rightful place" by a culturally rigid, hierarchical, militaristic Turian and thinking, "You humans are greedy and selfish. We have a higher place on the Counsel because we've been around longer and contributed more to the galactic community than you have. Get back in line and earn your place like the rest of us." (Or hell, being a fellow Turian might mean you have some choice thoughts about Saren.) Or a Quarian thinking, "Oppressed? Pfft! You've only been around 25 years and already have many colonies and trade rights; my people have been floating around homeless for centuries. What I wouldn't give for one colony so my people don't have to all keep huddling together in floating buckets of scrap metal." (In fact, it would be interesting if we played a Quarian on our Pilgrimage and then somehow prior to the game did something to earn being considered for a Spectre, and consider being made a Spectre your contribution to your people. To say nothing of your personal relationship to the geth!)

 

I know that wouldn't work with the Mass Effect Trilogy since it's, again, Shepard's story (and humanity's story by extension)... but Andromeda was a chance to wipe the slate clean, take a step back from SHEPARD'S MASS EFFECT, and maybe create new settings and stories and situations where exploring different alien cultures, and different alien's places and relationships with other aliens within the galactic community, could be possible. I'm sorry they didn't take the opportunity. I'm not going to go crusading for it, but I think it would be interesting and wanted to cast my comment in.

 

However, it really does bug me when people say something is objectively worthless just because they subjectively don't find worth in it. Saying that "no one can roleplay an alien because I can't" is like saying, "No one can see color because I'm color-blind."

[BabyPuncher]

Look, cards on the table: I always loved roleplaying because it let me slip into characters' skins and walking around in them. The more different from me, the better. The better able to see through their eyes and experience their vastly different cultures and lives, the happier I am.

 

That sort of sentiment really seems to missing one of the central points of exotic settings in fiction and fiction in general. The point that everything changes, but nothing changes at all.

[Inquisitor_Jonah]

With Bioware now using motion capture for cutscenes, that complaint is now corrected though. 

Are you sure? My Femquizi Robyn looked like a gorilla in some cutscenes. If they will start using mocap for the diferent genders in cutscenes for andromeda that's a thing that still needs to be seen, but until now, if they will make only one animation, then it's best to stick with humans.

[Panda]

Give me an example of a decision that could or would be made differently based on each race's cultural perspective and explain how you arrived at each of those choices.

Pro-tip:You can't, because you can't think like aliens.

 

Well someone who is human has wrote those aliens in the game and how think and view the world. In the end you don't need to think like alien while playinas alien since they are not that different from humans. Writers are humans just like players after all.

[Vortex13]

I would love to play as another alien species in ME:A, but BioWare has left me rather disappointed in how they have handled racial choice in DA:I. My Dwarf inquisitor was just a small human with a beard, and I can count on one hand the number of times that the game actually acknowledged my choice; the majority of which boiled down to an NPC going: "Hey, you're a dwarf." Not only that, but my character was an outsider to his own culture, and stood blank faced while other non-dwarfs were discussing the finer points of dwarven society.

 

 

The game needs to have more reactivity to racial choice, I really don't want to load up ME:A, pick an Asari (for example) and then walk up to another Asari NPC and hear her say: "By the Goddess." and then look like a confused idiot and go: "Who?"

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Are you sure? My Femquizi Robyn looked like a gorilla in some cutscenes. If they will start using mocap for the diferent genders in cutscenes for andromeda that's a thing that still needs to be seen, but until now, if they will make only one animation, then it's best to stick with humans.

Yes I'm sure. They even tweeted a few months ago with pictures from them using motion capture. 

Spoiler

Ken Thain ‏@KenThain

Stunt day for the next #masseffect at The Capture Lab. First Aid is on standby! 

 

I do agree that if it is too resource-heavy they should stick with as human as possible, but like I said that still allows race selection since the Asari, Batarian, and Drell models use the exact same animation and body models as humans do. Then if people respond positively enough to it, they might allocate more resources to getting other races to work. 

[Vortex13]

If we are going to add in playable races that have a tangible difference in play style, roleplaying capabilities, stats, and appearance, I would say go all out. In a perfect world, one where resource allocation wasn't an issue, and multiple PCs from a myriad of backgrounds and races got unique content on par with every other choice I would want to see more than the simple humanoid aliens. If we are already getting a full fledged racial selection, then I say go the extra distance and make the 'alien' aliens playable too.

 

 

The chances of such a thing happening however, are less likely than seeing pigs fly I would image.

[Killroy]

Why do I have a feeling you'd just move the goal posts no matter what I said?
 
If I said Mass Effect's aliens clearly aren't that foreign, since humans co-exist in an intergalactic community with them, and players can obviously communicate with, relate to, empathize with, befriend, and even romance alien companions, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine ourselves in an alien's specially-tailored suit and walking around in it (provided we learn enough about their planet, society, culture, etc), you'd probably just say, "Ha! Exactly! They're just reskinned humans, therefore the difference is superficial, therefore you might as well just play humans and have the same effect."

If your argument is "playing as an alien wouldn't be different than playing as a human" then I wouldn't have to move the goalposts. Because that's part of my point. If there's no effective difference in how the game operates and how your character plays then it's a purely aesthetic option, like the Qunari in Inquisition.
 

However, it really does bug me when people say something is objectively worthless just because they subjectively don't find worth in it. Saying that "no one can roleplay an alien because I can't" is like saying, "No one can see color because I'm color-blind."

Except my argument is based on logic. Yours is not. I understand you want the choice to play as multiple races. And I would probably use that options(I made a Qunari Inquisitor), but it would be a waste of resources in the grand scheme of things. There's no doubt in my mind that Inquisition would have been a stronger game had BioWare stuck to their guns and made a human-only PC. What they ended up with was a PC more boring than ME1 Shepard and more seemingly-inept than Hawke because they couldn't let the PC have any sort of personality, lest they make PCs of all races seem skewed. And those were races from the same hemisphere of the same planet.
 

Well someone who is human has wrote those aliens in the game and how think and view the world. In the end you don't need to think like alien while playinas alien since they are not that different from humans. Writers are humans just like players after all.

...you just proved my point. And writers make lore and context to establish a personality for the various races. They're not inside the alien races' heads.

[Panda]

...you just proved my point. And writers make lore and context to establish a personality for the various races. They're not inside the alien races' heads.

 

Expect that they are. They are inside the head of characters they write after all. Which gives us all the capability of being inside of your characters heads as well, human or not.

[Mirrman70]

I think the most important thing to focus on is the separation of species and races. These are all separate species that not only look different but function different. Out of the main ME species, I would like to point out are the Salarians. They possess little to no sex drive (different from reproductive urges) and a significantly different life cycle (due to it being so short). The next species are the Quarians. They cannot live outside of their suits for extended periods of time even on their own ships. Krogans are a species that just by looking at their history, desire an enemy. When they developed technology that made them the dominant creatures of Tuchanka they nearly obliterated each other. These are just some of the main ones. Vorcha, Hanar and Elcor are just impossible. Batarians might be the closest thing to humans and there is a good chance that they will not even be in the next game.

[Killroy]

Expect that they are. They are inside the head of characters they write after all. Which gives us all the capability of being inside of your characters heads as well, human or not.

Except no it doesn't. Not unless the other aliens are just like humans, which proves my point. We only have glimpses into the cultures and personalities of the other races. To think we could effectively RP as one of those aliens in a way that is unlike a human is like looking at a random stranger on the street and thinking you know his life's story. And to think BioWare could pull off making all the races play differently and the game react differently to them is wholly ignorant of reality.

[Panda]

Except no it doesn't. Not unless the other aliens are just like humans, which proves my point. We only have glimpses into the cultures and personalities of the other races. To think we could effectively RP as one of those aliens in a way that is unlike a human is like looking at a random stranger on the street and thinking you know his life's story. And to think BioWare could pull off making all the races play differently and the game react differently to them is wholly ignorant of reality.

 

Nope. They are written by humans so they aren't that far from humans, they aren't unimaginable. Just some imagination and lore knowledge and you are can play as alien no problem. And there is no need for races to play differently or game react differently to them most of the time. Only thing is bring some lore in the dialogue between our character and other Milky Wayan characters. Since developers already have written dialogue for major characters like Liara, Garrus and Thane there should be no problem.