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Switching companions around this time I noticed people are bullying Blackwall


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#26
Jaison1986

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The only one I would complain about is Cassandra, considering she is extra harsh to Blackwall once the truth comes out. I don't think she has much of a right to jugde considering she has the Chantry as her boss. How many horrible dirty secrets does she think they hold?

 

The others either try not to be mean or act accordingly, like Vivienne.



#27
Sable Rhapsody

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No it's not that. Blackwall said Solas was a card demon when he played another type of card game with him. If you don't recruit Dorian, Leliana is kicking Cullen's butt by cheating stealthy and Viv with her perfect game face would win everytime! Varric invited all the ones who are lesser players lol

 

LOL.  Actually I like your explanation better :D  Too bad Josie got the best of everyone!


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#28
riverbanks

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If you don't recruit Dorian, Leliana is kicking Cullen's butt by cheating stealthy

 

Actually Cullen beats Leliana at chess, and calls out her cheating too. :P

 

For the record, you don't need to not recruit Dorian to see this variant of the chess scene. If you recruit the Templars, just talk to Cullen first, before talking to Dorian at the library (when he officially asks you to join), and the chess scene will play with Leliana instead. You can still check Dorian at the library later and let him join the Inquisition then.


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#29
paramitch

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Bull is very pleasant to Blackwall and they seem to get along if you take them out in your party together. (At one point, he tells Blackwall that he'd make a good Charger.)

 

What I found interesting is that, if you romanced Bull, in the infamous "watchwords" conversation (and before the revelation about Blackwall comes out), Bull comments that Blackwall is a man whose watchword would be a <French/Orlesian phrase>, and that "there's a man who once lived the good life."

 

Eventually we discover that plain, simple-seeming Blackwall was of course

Spoiler
so once again, it was a very interesting insight into how smart and discerning Iron Bull is. He really does notice everything.

 

 


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#30
AtreiyaN7

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Err, Blackwall has banter with pretty much everyone. I usually go with Blackwall, Dorian, and Cole now (although I had Blackwall/Solas/Cole during one playthrough and Blackwall/Solas/Varric in another). Having had Blackwall hang out with just about every companion, I've seen quite a lot of banter between him and the others.

 

Regarding Dorian, their relationship definitely progresses over the game, so while Blackwall and Dorian are initially kind of antagonistic, they ultimately get along (although with a healthy dose of snark on both sides) in the end. As for Solas, you should see that exchange where Blackwall teases/nags Solas about Fade spirits and sex. I'd say that Solas and Blackwall get along pretty well overall (when Blackwall isn't asking him annoying questions about Fade spirits and sex), because they seem to think of themselves as kindred spirits as far as the battlefield goes.

 

Obviously, the truth about his identity causes a rough patch with the other companions, but they mostly get over it (even Cass seems to get less frosty towards the end and laughs over something Blackwall says at one point, so I guess it's the Cass-style version of forgiveness). Blackwall and Vivienne definitely hate each other from the start and never get along, but like others have already said, Vivienne doesn't really play nicely with anyone.


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#31
Carmen_Willow

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If everyone was all "butterflies and rainbows" with one another the banter would be boring as hell to me. I haven't used Blackwall all that much but I thought he and Solas got along fine. As well as Iron Bull and Sera.

Solas and Blackwall do get along well enough. Solas sees him as a fellow warrior who's seen a lot of battle. At the very least he respects him as a comrade in arms.


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#32
ThePhoenixKing

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Varric is a good judge of character... to a point.

 

Varric's main problem with Blackwall is that he finds him crushingly boring, like Sebastian. There's nothing he can ridicule, nothing he can mock. Varric has a lot of doubts about himself, and being around people who seem too good to be true reminds him of his own shortcomings, which he resents.

 

This is going to get a little meta, so let me apologize in advance.

 

The big revelation for Varric isn't Blackwall's reveal. It's that moment when Varric accuses Blackwall of being too nice, just like Sebastian, and Blackwall understand that Varric intended it as an insult. Sebastian would never have realized that. It's a turning point in their relationship, in fact. The thing is (in Varric's opinion), Sebastian was virtuous as a kind of default state, a non-choice. He's led a charmed life, and he's a prince, and he's nice, and blah. No conflict, nothing to write about. Blackwall isn't like that. With that "Sebastian would have took that as a compliment," Varric realizes that Blackwall's virtue is a choice he makes every day. He realizes that Blackwall understands that he could be evil, that he could have made other decisions, but that this was the life he chose. After that, Varric's a lot more willing to cut Blackwall some slack.

 

Hey, he thinks enough of the man to invite him to his Wicked Grace game. He doesn't do that with just anyone. Solas isn't there, for example, nor is Vivienne.

 

That's actually a really great analysis, well done. I think too that Varric is also pretty cynical and distrusting of causes to begin with; add that to the fact that life in Kirkwall high society means seeing hidden daggers behind every smile, and I can get why he'd be so eager to see the bad side to everyone, especially if they profess some form of virtue.



#33
RoseLawliet

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My favorite party is a rogue Inquisitor, Dorian, Blackwall, and Iron Bull. I've got locks covered, Dorian can energize things, and Blackwall and Bull take turns hitting things. Everyone's happy. That being said, I'll take them even if I didn't need their class abilities because they're my favorite three characters. Their banter seemed either friendly or mostly harmless ribbing. Dorian and Blackwall fought a bit at the beginning, but they got better.

 

Still never got the Bull/Dorian relationship to happen, and this was my party everywhere.



#34
d1ta

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I think Blackwall's banter with Sera is always on amicable terms? Or my banter is bugged and I didn't get to see them on each other's throat?

Anyho my first PT always consist of: Wall + Sera + someone else

#35
Bugsie

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Really it's only Viv who is absolutely vicious to Blackwall, both before and after revelations and as someone alluded too mainly because each represent the things they despise about their backgrounds. All the companions are pretty pissed about him after revelations, but then turn that on its heel when they see he is truly trying to redeem himself. However I think the only person who really has a hard time moving on from Blackwalls revelation is Cass, and even Blackwall says he doesn't blame her (or anyone really) for that.

@berelinde your analysis on Varric is great! Also telling that Varric appears to like him more when he finds out he's a liar and a murderer rather than the holier than though hypocrite he initially takes him for (I say that without reference to Sebastion mainly because I have never done the Sebastion DLC)

Blackwall has some great banter, pity those who think him too boring to take him out with other companions to listen to it. His story in the Hissing wastes and his banter with Sera always good for a laugh.

Mixing up your companions is the only way you'll hear a lot of banter, I'm running a lot with Iron Bull, Cass and Varric in this pt and hearing some great stuff I hadn't heard before.
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#36
Ghost Gal

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That's funny, the first time I played most everyone seemed to like Blackwall - Solas respected him as a fellow veteran who's seen his share of bloodshed (or, as Patrick Weekes puts it, "kids these days" talk), Varric was always trying to guess that he had a tragic past which Blackwall kept disappointing him on (until it was revealed Varric was right), Sera and Blackwall got along capitally (they even ganged up on Solas and asked him if he'd ever been intimate with a Fade spirit.  :lol: ), and of course Cole is a sweetie to everyone (if anything, I found Blackwall's treatment of Cole rather upsetting).

 

I didn't see anyone act "bullying" or snippy toward Blackwall until after his Big Secret was revealed. Even then, I didn't hear much of it because I didn't want to travel with him either. =/


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#37
Hanako Ikezawa

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The only one I would complain about is Cassandra, considering she is extra harsh to Blackwall once the truth comes out. 

She was the only one harsh enough towards the monster known as Thom "Blackwall" Rainier. 



#38
paramitch

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Bull's very funny with Blackwall ("we could fight crime!"), and the funniest interaction ever for me is the one where Bull is longingly describing missing bananas (rather suggestively, hee!) and at a certain point, Blackwall just wryly says he hopes Bull is still talking about the fruit. It's so funny.

 

Meanwhile, I was with Cassandra. To be honest, I had a really tough time forgiving Blackwall at all.

I think he's really well-written, because in the beginning I found him honestly rather too fawning, too all-of-a-sudden "you're amazing! the Inquisition is awesome!" to the extent that it actually made me kind of uncomfortable. But then it made perfect sense once I realized that he was desperate to redeem himself and to reinvent himself. To be the man who saved the dog instead of doing nothing and watching it die.

 

I did end up giving him a chance to redeem himself, but I was angry (and this definitely came out in my Quizzie #1), and I loved that we were really allowed to express our disappointment or betrayal. My Quizzie yelled at him big time in that jail cell. What he did was absolutely heinous, and it wasn't even a case of temporary insanity (like with Sten in DAO). He could have stopped it once he realized kids and civilians were involved. He didn't. Then he ran away and let his men suffer the consequences (even if I blame them as well because killing a child in cold blood? come on, orders or no orders, no way they thought that was okay...).

It's not the assassin thing for me so much as Blackwall's actions toward the family, and subsequent cowardice. (I mean, I'm not happy with the assassin thing anyway, but let's face it, we become friends with Zevran in DAO and he's quite cheerful about the job, so I don't want to be a total hypocrite.)

 

But I also really disliked that -- beyond all that -- he chose to impersonate a Grey Warden. After DAO that felt like a sacrilege. He didn't undergo the Joining, he didn't suffer the torment of the Calling, he was wearing a mantle he hadn't earned, and it was pretty gross once his crimes were revealed. My first Quizzie had exiled the GWs, ironically only saving Blackwall as she had "never doubted" him, so to find out that he was a liar was a big deal to me.

 

I didn't find myself thawing toward Blackwall again until "Trespasser." He had really worked to try to reinvent himself, he had joined the Grey Wardens and survived the Joining, and had tried to become the man he had pretended to be. He'd spent the time saving many lives and risking his own. So while I never quite forgave him, I was okay with him in the very end.
 



#39
Bugsie

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Also, I haven't noticed much hostility from Vivienne towards him... she barely joined my parties, so there wasn't much "throwing shades" between them. At least, Sera called her a "biatch" at some point, which... well, she is.

Vivienne and Blackwall's banters are easily the most vicious in the game, to the point of being downright unpleasant to witness. However, there is a reasoning behind it and it speaks of great characterisation of both Viv and Blackwall in my opinion within the grand scheme of 'the game'.

 

My take on Viv’s dislike of Blackwall is that he represents what she despises, failure and obscurity. Before revelations he’s a grey warden, although there is no banter about how ‘Blackwall’ (the real Blackwall) became a warden – Viv is no fool and can see someone who played the game and failed miserably – so that’s maybe why he is a member of such an order. Vivienne disproves if you recruit the Wardens at Adamant and approves if you exile them – telling you that she doesn’t think highly of them.

 
After revelations her attitude to Blackwall doesn’t change – because he confirms her belief that he was a man who played the game and failed. Vivienne if anything, is the only one who is consistent in her attitude toward him, his crime is not the reason for her dislike. If you are romancing him and your approval is at least at medium she shows great concern for you and in Trespasser is downright happy for you.

 

Blackwall is pretty cutting toward her as well, he calls her a snake, because he dislikes ‘the ambition’, he hates ‘the game’ (partly because HE failed so miserably at it.) Vivienne represents what he despises as much as what Blackwall represents what she despises.

 

People say she is ‘nasty to Blackwall’ but his sniveling, later spiteful pandering, then just outright snide civility, is no better. People who fail to notice this have their head in the sand at how complex these characters have been written. This is a nuanced take on the Orlesian Grand Game, and the more I think about it the more glorious both Viv and Blackwall become because of it. A friend had a bigger take on it - especially on the notion of squandered opportunity by Thom Rainier for the sake of a few coins - whereas Vivienne had to fight to earn her place.


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#40
Korva

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Cassandra has a awesome warrior-bond with Blackwall that is really fun to listen to ... which means she takes his revelation the hardest by far. It's a realistic reaction and frankly I like how strong it is, because I don't like how quickly the game otherwise glosses over his actions. As I recall, the Inquisitor basically can't be angry with him or expect him to earn back trust and respect -- go talk to him after the judgment and you basically instantly treat him like a buddy again with whom you only had some minor spat. Through Cass, at least, there's some element of "Don't expect everything to go back to normal within three seconds", which is otherwise sorely missing.

 

At the same time, though, I also really like how gentle and supportive more-spirit-Cole towards him. Blackwall gets defensive or evasive with some other characters, but with Cole he can't hide how deep his shame and guilt really run. I think Blackwall benefits from both, the arse-kicking from someone he deeply likes and respects and the unfettered kindness from someone he hasn't always been so kind to himself.



#41
Potato Cat

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Vivienne doesn't like Blackwall because in their first conversation, he assumes she is some helpless woman who needs protecting, when that's the exact opposite image she works so hard to present. She then completely dismisses him and she then mocks his inept attempts of mocking her.


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#42
Bugsie

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Vivienne doesn't like Blackwall because in their first conversation, he assumes she is some helpless woman who needs protecting, when that's the exact opposite image she works so hard to present. She then completely dismisses him and she then mocks his inept attempts of mocking her.

If you look at any of the conversations, Vivienne considers Blackwall inconsequential and a mere smudge to ignore. Her dislike is not from being offended about his assumptions about her. Everything Blackwall says is of no consequence to her, his opinion is not valued, his reasonings for various things that happen within the game is dismissed for being naive and arrogant. In fact she dismisses him at every turn, that is the dynamic.

 

Do you honestly think a woman like Vivienne considers her well crafted image is likely to take a dent from someone she considers well beneath her? She actually takes no offence at anything he says or does, the only time she appears to take offence - is that his position isn't taken by a chevaliar rather than a 'low life thug'.

 

Her opinion of him is 'shut up and hit things'


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#43
daveliam

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Vivienne and Blackwall's banters are easily the most vicious in the game, to the point of being downright unpleasant to witness. However, there is a reasoning behind it and it speaks of great characterisation of both Viv and Blackwall in my opinion within the grand scheme of 'the game'.

 

My take on Viv’s dislike of Blackwall is that he represents what she despises, failure and obscurity. Before revelations he’s a grey warden, although there is no banter about how ‘Blackwall’ (the real Blackwall) became a warden – Viv is no fool and can see someone who played the game and failed miserably – so that’s maybe why he is a member of such an order. Vivienne disproves if you recruit the Wardens at Adamant and approves if you exile them – telling you that she doesn’t think highly of them.

 
After revelations her attitude to Blackwall doesn’t change – because he confirms her belief that he was a man who played the game and failed. Vivienne if anything, is the only one who is consistent in her attitude toward him, his crime is not the reason for her dislike. If you are romancing him and your approval is at least at medium she shows great concern for you and in Trespasser is downright happy for you.

 

Blackwall is pretty cutting toward her as well, he calls her a snake, because he dislikes ‘the ambition’, he hates ‘the game’ (partly because HE failed so miserably at it.) Vivienne represents what he despises as much as what Blackwall represents what she despises.

 

People say she is ‘nasty to Blackwall’ but his sniveling, later spiteful pandering, then just outright snide civility, is no better. People who fail to notice this have their head in the sand at how complex these characters have been written. This is a nuanced take on the Orlesian Grand Game, and the more I think about it the more glorious both Viv and Blackwall become because of it. A friend had a bigger take on it - especially on the notion of squandered opportunity by Thom Rainier for the sake of a few coins - whereas Vivienne had to fight to earn her place.

 

This is a great analysis of the characters.  It absolutely flows both ways, but some people have such hate blinders on for Vivienne that they cast her as the antagonist in their relationship.  He's equally shitty to her.


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