26 réponses à ce sujet

[InquisitorPotato]

man pretty much ALL new ability upgrades in the battlemaster tree are great. Playing this game in nightmare with all trials on made me realize how good this skill tree is now.

[PapaCharlie9]

man pretty much ALL new ability upgrades in the battlemaster tree are great. Playing this game in nightmare with all trials on made me realize how good this skill tree is now.

Agreed. It is now a tough decision between spending Warrior points in Vanguard vs Battlemaster. And that's not even considering the broken Coming Through damage.

[HEROx Divine]

If you didn't need my #ROLL2WIN threads.. I only get Flow of the Battle from 2H tree now

[CATS3688]

Yes this skill tree got absurdly buffed along with Sabotage for rogues.

[VilniusNastavnik]

chain for days followed by spin to win

[InquisitorPotato]

Yes the chain skill upgrade on tanks is soo good! They pull every enemy then taunt.

[VilniusNastavnik]

Not just tanks, on 2H Champions. Chain for days into Taunt into Whirlwind vortex with clear a path passive  

[HannahRose]

I love that the new Horn of Valor upgrade makes it so I don't have to waste a masterwork slot on +5 guard per hit anymore. Everything else is cool too, but that is by far my favourite part. lol

[PapaCharlie9]

I love that the new Horn of Valor upgrade makes it so I don't have to waste a masterwork slot on +5 guard per hit anymore. Everything else is cool too, but that is by far my favourite part. lol

I agree, though we're swapping an active skill slot for a masterwork slot. In late game, that starts to be a problem.

[HannahRose]

I agree, though we're swapping an active skill slot for a masterwork slot. In late game, that starts to be a problem.

 

If you're playing solo yeah, but otherwise I just get it on Blackwall and set it to favourite. Since I usually make him a one-handed tank/support warrior anyway, sacrificing one skill slot for a skill I'd probably have already had him using isn't a big deal for me. It also helps that the AI is so much better at remembering to use it than I am. lol As for the other warrior in my party, even on nightmare with all of the trials enabled, I haven't found myself needing to have it on more than one character (usually Blackwall), so I just skip it on my DPS warrior and get Livid instead.

 

Basically it's nothing but a blessing for party play, but yeah I could see it being a hassle if you're running solo. And I may have to try that now since I haven't played a solo warrior post Trespasser yet, but I'm curious to see how much more difficult it's become.

[KoorahUK]

Don't have Trespasser yet but my 2handed Champ loved Battlemaster before.

[Bigdawg13]

Pretty frustrated IMHO about the changes in 1.10 and warrior.  Horn of Valor is so good now (with the upgrade) that every group needs one.  That's a bad game design in my opinion.  It dilutes the options and forces most warriors to play a certain way.

[PapaCharlie9]

Pretty frustrated IMHO about the changes in 1.10 and warrior.  Horn of Valor is so good now (with the upgrade) that every group needs one.  That's a bad game design in my opinion.  It dilutes the options and forces most warriors to play a certain way.

IKR? You're basically playing wrong if you don't run with a spamming Warrior in your party.

[KoorahUK]

IKR? You're basically playing wrong if you don't run with a spamming Warrior in your party.

Playing wrong? If its so powerful that it spoils the game then...don't use it? Who is gonna complain if you don't, this isn't an MMO where if you aren't specced a certain way no-lifers whine l2p when they see your sub-optimal build. 

[Forsythia77]

Pretty frustrated IMHO about the changes in 1.10 and warrior.  Horn of Valor is so good now (with the upgrade) that every group needs one.  That's a bad game design in my opinion.  It dilutes the options and forces most warriors to play a certain way.

 

I personally am too lazy to ever take Horn of Valor for my tank of choice (Cass).  Didn't stop me from winning the game on nightmare or enjoying the game in general.  Just like I rarely spec into fire for my inquisitor mages.  Just because it seems to be preferred doesn't mean you have to play that way.  The fun is finding skill combinations you like for your play style.

[Bigdawg13]

Playing wrong? If its so powerful that it spoils the game then...don't use it? Who is gonna complain if you don't, this isn't an MMO where if you aren't specced a certain way no-lifers whine l2p when they see your sub-optimal build. 

 

The trees are not balanced.  There are a LOT of really crappy passives and skills.  And throughout the patches many of these skills just don't get fixed.  Add in DLC like Jaws of Hakkon with the infamous debuff that can one-shot any tank, and you start seeing one of three options.  Pick the OP skills (combat roll+, horn of valor+, etc), die a LOT, or lower difficulty and hand the controller to your 6-year old child and tell them to spam buttons. 

 

Actually now that I think about it...when you pick the OP skills you can still hand the controller to a young child. 

 

Sorry that's not fun.  You know what's fun?  A challenge where you can pick any playstyle the game offers.  I don't find it fun running around shouting constantly.  I want to smash my enemies....destroy them.  I want to tear them up and split the ground open.  Where's the 2H tree love eh?  Why did they have to make combat roll so overpowered?  And why make Horn of Valor so ridiculously OP.  The upgrade toggle for it was inconspicious I doubt they realized how OP and a "must-have" it would be.

 

Balance is important in ANY game.  It doesn't need to be an MMO for it to be relevant.  Why even offer the other trees with how the game is now?  Just scrap everything and keep battlemaster, reduce the skills down to taunt, roll, and shout.   Then you just mash those three buttons until you see the "I Win" credits.

 

I personally am too lazy to ever take Horn of Valor for my tank of choice (Cass).  Didn't stop me from winning the game on nightmare or enjoying the game in general.  Just like I rarely spec into fire for my inquisitor mages.  Just because it seems to be preferred doesn't mean you have to play that way.  The fun is finding skill combinations you like for your play style.

 

I didn't think about it until I started running into trouble in JoH nightmare.  I saw a post by actionhero and swapped Cass over to his spec and it was smooth sailing from then on.  No more wipes due to a dead tank.  I believe the spec used both Horn of Valor and War Horn.  When you couple the AoE stun of Wrath of Heaven, along with the fear of War Horn, and the party-wide guard-buff of Horn of Valor, it doesn't take long before you realize Cass is a very capable tank.  She topped the infamous Blackwall due to her crowd control. 

 

My point is, my tanks were constantly dying without a lot of micro-management.  It wouldn't have been so bad except for the god-awful limited-tactics provided to us in DA:I. 

 

But this is all beside the point.  Try playing the tank.  I used to love being the tank.  I remember reading all the 2H champ threads.  It's total crap now!  It's all about shouting, and rolling.  That is so flipping boring!

 

I stand by what I said.  1.10 ruined the warrior for me, and it was my favorite class.  I bum-rushed my rogue with trespasser DLC and then uninstalled the game.  I've moved on.

[KoorahUK]

I think the tactics point you raise is very valid. My biggest critisism of the game is that I can't build the tactical understanding into my party that DA2 offered. Man, party combat in that game was a thing of beauty to me. I hope DA4 allows us to build complex conditions. I understand they wanted to simplify it but Jesus H Bananas, if I don't micro my team on tough fights I'm in trouble, no matter what I do.

Tactics aside, I hear you and I don't have the DLC so won't argue with you, it's just that I'm my experience I've rarely found a game where your options are "Faceroll or Impossible" with nothing in between. Perhaps DAI is the exception which depresses me as I was looking forward to the DLC.

[PapaCharlie9]

it's just that I'm my experience I've rarely found a game where your options are "Faceroll or Impossible" with nothing in between.

At the risk of sounding exactly like an l2p no-lifer ...

That was my point, except I'd say it as Faceroll or Play Wrong. DAI is not impossible unless you are making gross mistakes.

Sure, I can take voluntary handicaps -- I did a whole NM run with no crafting -- but if you happen to like min/maxing, the maxing part isn't much fun if you have to have a list of exceptions a mile long.

And I +1 everything BD said.

[PapaCharlie9]

I tried to settle for just a +1, I really did, but this bears repeating:

Balance is important in ANY game.  It doesn't need to be an MMO for it to be relevant.  Why even offer the other trees with how the game is now?  Just scrap everything and keep battlemaster, reduce the skills down to taunt, roll, and shout.   Then you just mash those three buttons until you see the "I Win" credits.

... and balance doesn't mean give every buff a debuff so that everything turns out to be average and mediocre (*cough* Sigils *cough*). Everything that can't be exploited, anyway.

Making skills and builds balanced should be about opportunity cost, not just penalties. If I take a particular skill (Combat Roll), that gives me an advantage A in context B, but should limit my ability to do X in context Y. Or at least, makes it too expensive in the skills economy to do X in context Y cost effectively -- Witcher 2 is a prime example of this approach.

As DAI stands today, I can take Combat Roll and dominate in all contexts. When that is true, there are no meaningful decisions in making builds.

The other, more difficult-to-implement form of balance is that A and X are essentially equal in effectiveness (A works for either B or Y), they just differ in style. A 20th level rogue doesn't feel any more or less capable than a 20th level warrior or a 20th level mage. Each can individually solve a particular challenge in their own way, but they can all face all challenges.

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

I would, if I had the slots to get it, but between the 2 handed (or sword and board) tree and the specialization tree, I don't have the slots, especially if I'm a tank and using battlemaster. 8 slots are just way to &*#$(@! limiting.

[HEROx Divine]

I made a 2H warrior that maxed out attack just to spam combat roll. I'm doing 8k+/sec. Too easy

[actionhero112]

Trespasser brought a new perspective to the combat in this game. Unfortunately, it also broke it.  The biggest symptom being coming through's broken ratio and cooldown. The entire 2 handed tree has crap ratios, because supposedly they didn't want to give large weapon damage multipliers to the weapon class with the highest base. Fine. I can understand that. Then you outclass the entire tree with one ability in battlemaster. What? 

 

I went back to playing the predecessors, now I'm on DA2. For all it's faults, its combat system was extremely solid, best in the series now that I'm replaying it.

 

It's also pretty easy though. even on nightmare.  Brittle assassinate all the things. 

 

Multiplayer to this game was really fun though. Too bad the gear and promotion grind sucked. 

[HannahRose]

I know Coming Through is bugged, but which way does the bug go? Is it supposed to do 500% damage, even though it only says 250% in the skill menu? Or is it supposed to do 250% damage like it says, but is doing 500% instead? If it was the former then I could understand people's frustration with a lack of balance in the game, but if it's the latter, and I'm pretty sure it is, then I don't get why people are complaining about a skill that is literally broken being figuratively broken as well.

I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but complaining about a lack of balance when you're (in most cases) knowingly taking advantage of an exploit kind of rings a little hollow; don't you think? It's not like you *need* to use it to beat the game either. Maker knows that warriors can do just fine on NM+Trials without it, even if they run solo. So if the damage that CT is currently capable of doing bothers you that much, then just don't use it until it's fixed. There, that's that problem solved. lol

 

Anyway, apart from that I have little to add to the conversation taking place about "balance" that hasn't already been said, so I'll end this post there.

[PapaCharlie9]

I know Coming Through is bugged, but which way does the bug go? Is it supposed to do 500% damage, even though it only says 250% in the skill menu? Or is it supposed to do 250% damage like it says, but is doing 500% instead? If it was the former then I could understand people's frustration with a lack of balance in the game, but if it's the latter, and I'm pretty sure it is, then I don't get why people are complaining about a skill that is literally broken being figuratively broken as well.
I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but complaining about a lack of balance when you're (in most cases) knowingly taking advantage of an exploit kind of rings a little hollow;

Coming Through apparently (I haven't tested it myself, but I trust the people making the claims) does 500% damage AoE. For only 20 stamina. On a 1.9 second cooldown. And it breaks out of knock back. So, because it is close to infinitely spammable, on a DPS basis, it vastly exceeds all other combat skills a warrior can use.

I don't use it. It's clearly unintentionally broken. But intentional or unintentional, you have to admit it makes building a balanced warrior a bit of an act of futility. You either decide to use it, in which case every other decision you make about your warrior spec is meaningless, or, you voluntarily handicap yourself and don't use it, which makes your "optimal" build hollow and little more than an academic exercise, because who else is going to be interested in it? This isn't an entirely private experience, or else we wouldn't be posting on BSN. I'm sure there are min/maxers out there that can't or decide not to share their builds, but that's neither here nor there with respect to this conversation.

But Coming Through is the lesser of the two Warrior problems. The bigger problem to me is Horn of Valor/Fortifying Blast. That was clearly intentional and it just as clearly nullifies every organically evolved strategy for gaining guard, if not all forms of party-wide defense. While Coming Through is OP, it's only OP for one character (or at least, each Warrior in the party). Fortifying Blast affects all characters and radically changes the landscape for defense, and thus all combat tactics.

I won't repeat BD's excellent comments for why that ruins balance. Insert here.

Sure, I can voluntarily decide not to take Fortifying Blast. For me, that's a more painful decision than not taking Coming Through, because it handicaps the whole party, not just warriors. And like Coming Through for warriors, by avoiding Fortifying Blast, every other decision I make about party defense becomes an academic exercise.

[actionhero112]

I know Coming Through is bugged, but which way does the bug go? Is it supposed to do 500% damage, even though it only says 250% in the skill menu? Or is it supposed to do 250% damage like it says, but is doing 500% instead? If it was the former then I could understand people's frustration with a lack of balance in the game, but if it's the latter, and I'm pretty sure it is, then I don't get why people are complaining about a skill that is literally broken being figuratively broken as well.

I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but complaining about a lack of balance when you're (in most cases) knowingly taking advantage of an exploit kind of rings a little hollow; don't you think? It's not like you *need* to use it to beat the game either. Maker knows that warriors can do just fine on NM+Trials without it, even if they run solo. So if the damage that CT is currently capable of doing bothers you that much, then just don't use it until it's fixed. There, that's that problem solved. lol

 

Anyway, apart from that I have little to add to the conversation taking place about "balance" that hasn't already been said, so I'll end this post there.

 

 

It trivializes content. What's the point of optional difficulty at all if you can nullify it easily? As the game stands now, there is no challenge, because a skill exists in the game that is so fundamentally broken, that nothing can really stand against it. 

 

In fact, when I learned about combat roll's damage and the amulet of barrier, I did a solo nightmare run with all trials on. Didn't even break a sweat. There is no strategy to a game when you can press 1 button to win. 

 

For those of us that take pleasure in combat with depth and strategy, this is a huge affront. 

 

Obviously game designers agree, which is why they took away the flask of fire + thousand cuts exploit. They didn't just say, "LOL just don't use it dummies XD." They recognized what it did to the game. 

 

Even if it did the stated damage however it would still outclass the entire 2 handed tree with that modifier and that low of a cooldown. 

 

To understand this, you have to understand why they changed spirit blade.