47 réponses à ce sujet

[Dabrikishaw]

It's a though of mine that's been bouncing around for  quite a while but the whole idea of choosing between the mages and Templars is arbitrary given that regardless, you'll end up fighting Red Templars and Venatori anyway. 

 

Before anyone starts, I'm not asking for Bioware to give players some sort of "3rd option". I just think the Haven portion of the story should have been reworked from the ground up so that Templars and mages both were needed to help close the Breach, and that Templars needed to be recruited in order to free the mages from the Venatori at Redcliffe. Nothing about this restructuring would remove the options to ally with or conscript  Templars and mages, so nothing about how the Divine of your choice is elected would change since the point is to show your political opinion on the matter. 

[Cute Nug]

I do like this better but sorry nope. We fight too many red pimplars for the rest of the game in half the chore zones regardless of which side you chose. 

 

For me the ridiculous amount of red plimplars you have to fight makes more sense if you sided with the mages.

 

If they restructured the later fights with red pimplars in game to adequately explain why when you had allied with their leadership early in game then it could work.

 

I agree though that ending the mage-pimplar war with them having to work together for a moment at least to stop the breach is a more interesting story then the rebel mages continuing to be dumb enough to all be indentured servants to a Teventer cult and the Elder One. They are rebel enough to start a losing war against the templars but are suddenly not rebel enough anymore to see the Venatori and Eldar One suck. Makes it hard to not want to lock them up in circles because they are in game stupid in DAI. The in game mage story was a bit ham handed for my tastes. I would have preferred to rescue them with a group of pimplars. 

 

The time jump see the world if Cory had succeeded should have been DLC like the DAO darkspawn DLC although it's pretty bleak if you don't go back and save the world so maybe not.

[DuskWanderer]

I'd have preferred some sort of both happening. If I recruit the templars, I need to deal with an aftermath at Redcliffe, that introduces Calpernia to me, and if I go for the mages, I need to deal with the aftermath of the templars that introduces Samson. And then at Haven, I meet the other one, and I have to deal with both lieutenants. 

[Dabrikishaw]

I do like this better but sorry nope. We fight too many red pimplars for the rest of the game in half the chore zones regardless of which side you chose. 

I know, that's part of the reason I made this topic. Siding with one doesn't stop the other from appearing, so why not just force players to get their own army of mages and Templars to fight Corypheus' army of Venatori and Red Templars?

[Eyes_Only]

yeah I agree. If we took charge of the templars, why not bring the mages back as well? How could we simply ignore the fact the Venatori are right there occupying Redcliffe?

 

If you side with the mages, you face red templars at Haven. You bring the mountain down on them but there are still a lot of red templars in the game.

 

However if you side with the templars and bring the mountain down on the mages at Haven, there is maybe a fraction of mages in the world compared to red templars were your decisions reversed. i found that the world maps seemed more empty if I sided with the templars.

 

So yes, there should have been an option to do both. Maybe not to the exact way they are laid out now. But we should have had more choices.

[Cute Nug]

I know, that's part of the reason I made this topic. Siding with one doesn't stop the other from appearing, so why not just force players to get their own army of mages and Templars to fight Corypheus' army of Venatori and Red Templars?

Agreed, I like what you propose. 

 

The mage or templar choice worked better in DA2 except for the Orsino harvester dumbness. Although since game mechanics made it feel like all mages were evil blood mages and all templars were evil thugs a third option would have been nice to leave Kirkwall with what seemed the very few redeemable mages and templars.

 

For me the mage or templar choice in DAI required to many head cannony excuses. It seems nice to have choices but sometimes they don't help. I see what they tried to do but couldn't completely get there. What you describe would have been a great story-line without overstretching game creation resources to pull it off. It would have been a better ending to the mage-templar war IMHO.

 

Instead we have a story were mages still suck and templars still suck. We just hope most of the sucky ones died off in DAI or not. Sucky is kind of the Thedas way.

 

Oh and apparently grey wardens suck too. Maybe the veil is the problem. I thought it was just Kirkwall but Kirkwall is just a suck amplifier in Thedas. 

[Dabrikishaw]

I'd have preferred some sort of both happening. If I recruit the templars, I need to deal with an aftermath at Redcliffe, that introduces Calpernia to me, and if I go for the mages, I need to deal with the aftermath of the templars that introduces Samson. And then at Haven, I meet the other one, and I have to deal with both lieutenants. 

This is pretty decent as an idea. I never even thought about Calpernia and Samson being in the game at the same time but it's a good bonus. You get more story on Corypheus without losing Cullen's companion quest.

[In Exile]

I think it's pretty obvious, IMO, that the plot was orignally written with both happening. Corypheus has red templars and venatori, and if you play the templar quest there's a significant # of them that get recruited. Presumably they made them exclusive because a lot of people asked for exclusive content. I bed that originally they were going to be like the Wardens/Orlais mission, i.e., just things we could do in any order. 

[Dabrikishaw]

I think it's pretty obvious, IMO, that the plot was orignally written with both happening. Corypheus has red templars and venatori, and if you play the templar quest there's a significant # of them that get recruited. Presumably they made them exclusive because a lot of people asked for exclusive content. I bed that originally they were going to be like the Wardens/Orlais mission, i.e., just things we could do in any order. 

That makes the most sense to me. It wouldn't be hard to gate out one choice if you made the other programming wise.

[Cute Nug]

The closing the breach cinematic scene fails to support the idea we needed a larger number of either templars or mages to close the breach. In the cinematic scene it is only a handful of templars or mages shown which is okay but doesn't help the only rebel mages or rebel templars motivation.

 

By the cinematic we already had enough powerful mages in the Inquistion to close the breach.

 

Only being able to use either the rebel mages or the rebel templars to close the breach just didn't work for me as a game mechanic/motivation. There was at least one circle of templars that could have been recruited. We could have had the option of collecting loyalist mages and/or dalish mages. Would have been fun to see Tevinter and the Qunari both provide mages and have to work together to close the breach.

 

Only rebel mages or rebel templars could help Quizzy close the breach just didn't seem to work in the way they were telling the story in-game.

 

Story-wise with the rebel mages and rebel templars, as we soon discover the obvious manipulation attempts by some entity, we should have been focused on rescuing the mages that weren't stupid enough to join the Ventori cult and the templars who weren't jonesing for red lyrium. And the time magic threat seemed important at the time if you went to Redcliffe.

 

To me the idea of recruiting what's left of the rebel templars when it becomes available makes more sense to then assault Redcliffe castle to save those rebel mages that will join you in fighting the Venatori and the stated threat of time magic instead of the risky commando raid we have to pretend is the best idea.

IMHO it's a better story and more epic start to get what templars you can salvage and assault Redcliffe castle. Saved rebel templars helping with saved rebel mages to fight a Tevinter cult threat that might be related to the breach and the destruction of their peace conclave. Maybe just hindsight but it seems a much better story. As opposed to what we have with a  pretend this scenario makes sense motivation so we can, I guess, have another mages vs templars choice. Instead the end to the mage-pimplar war is mages and pimplars are all generally Kirkwall stupid.

 

As a bonus of saving some of both group, we still have choices on what to do with what is left with each group.

 

If you go to the templars instead the game just say the mages left Redcliffe and the time magic threat I guess was just a false alarm since Alex decides it's not worth it to find the Quizzy and use it I guess. 
 

From a story perspective DAI is just what get's me to Trespasser. Although, DAI has many redeeming parts much of it becomes just filler for me that progresses the story with head cannon pretending that it all works as well as intended. In-game it's not a bad story continuation if I don't think about it much.

 

Happily since neither choice matters in-game I try to ignore champions of the just and in hushed whispers as just very superficial ideas that progress the game if you leave them behind.

[vbibbi]

Then maybe we could get an actual resolution to the Mage-Templar war instead of having it quietly whimper and die. The Chantry refuses to even speak to the Inquisition until the rebellion is ended and both mages and templars are cleared of blame for the Divine's death. (It seems to be glossed over that most people think that mages at the Conclave created the explosion, which is logical. There is only the word of the few people who saw the flashback memory that the Elder One is responsible, and even then, couldn't the Elder One be the code name of one of the rebel mages? Why would anyone be OK with the Inquisition allying with the mages since Corypheus hasn't even shown himself yet?)

 

As you say, there are still venatori and red templars regardless of which path is taken. Why not have it make more sense that Corypheus' troops are mostly from Tevinter and maybe Nevarra and the Free Marches? Corypheus finds out about red lyrium, takes it back to Tevinter and uses it on the previously-powerless Tevinter templars. He recruits mages and conscripts slaves to the venatori. Then, they all march south to the Conclave, enslaving others along the way and adding to the ranks.

 

This would give both mages and templars more justification for their in-game idiocy. Fiona is panicking because other rebel mage cells have gone silent in the north, as the venatori have discovered them and conscripted them. The Seekers have regrouped at Therinfall to discover that senior leadership in other countries who didn't attend the Conclave are missing. Each side believes the other to be responsible. Mayhem ensues. Maaaaayhem!

[In Exile]

 

The closing the breach cinematic scene fails to support the idea we needed a larger number of either templars or mages to close the breach. In the cinematic scene it is only a handful of templars or mages shown which is okay but doesn't help the only rebel mages or rebel templars motivation.

 

By the cinematic we already had enough powerful mages in the Inquistion to close the breach.

 

Only being able to use either the rebel mages or the rebel templars to close the breach just didn't work for me as a game mechanic/motivation. There was at least one circle of templars that could have been recruited. We could have had the option of collecting loyalist mages and/or dalish mages. Would have been fun to see Tevinter and the Qunari both provide mages and have to work together to close the breach.

 

Only rebel mages or rebel templars could help Quizzy close the breach just didn't seem to work in the way they were telling the story in-game.

 

Story-wise with the rebel mages and rebel templars, as we soon discover the obvious manipulation attempts by some entity, we should have been focused on rescuing the mages that weren't stupid enough to join the Ventori cult and the templars who weren't jonesing for red lyrium. And the time magic threat seemed important at the time if you went to Redcliffe.

 

To me the idea of recruiting what's left of the rebel templars when it becomes available makes more sense to then assault Redcliffe castle to save those rebel mages that will join you in fighting the Venatori and the stated threat of time magic instead of the risky commando raid we have to pretend is the best idea.

IMHO it's a better story and more epic start to get what templars you can salvage and assault Redcliffe castle. Saved rebel templars helping with saved rebel mages to fight a Tevinter cult threat that might be related to the breach and the destruction of their peace conclave. Maybe just hindsight but it seems a much better story. As opposed to what we have with a  pretend this scenario makes sense motivation so we can, I guess, have another mages vs templars choice. Instead the end to the mage-pimplar war is mages and pimplars are all generally Kirkwall stupid.

 

As a bonus of saving some of both group, we still have choices on what to do with what is left with each group.

 

If you go to the templars instead the game just say the mages left Redcliffe and the time magic threat I guess was just a false alarm since Alex decides it's not worth it to find the Quizzy and use it I guess. 
 

From a story perspective DAI is just what get's me to Trespasser. Although, DAI has many redeeming parts much of it becomes just filler for me that progresses the story with head cannon pretending that it all works as well as intended. In-game it's not a bad story continuation if I don't think about it much.

 

Happily since neither choice matters in-game I try to ignore champions of the just and in hushed whispers as just very superficial ideas that progress the game if you leave them behind.

 

 

You have to remember In Your Heart Shall Burn was a late-game addition, when they made the decision to have the Inquisitor annointed with the title much later than at the start of the game. That's part of why the story is a bit inconsistent on whether the breach is actually closed, and why the showdown has Corypheus randomly re-open(ish) the breach, and In Your Heart Shall Burn provides a different sort of bandaid than the final way the Inquisitor closes it with the Foci.  

[vbibbi]

You have to remember In Your Heart Shall Burn was a late-game addition, when they made the decision to have the Inquisitor annointed with the title much later than at the start of the game. That's part of why the story is a bit inconsistent on whether the breach is actually closed, and why the showdown has Corypheus randomly re-open(ish) the breach, and In Your Heart Shall Burn provides a different sort of bandaid than the final way the Inquisitor closes it with the Foci.  

 

Interesting, this would help explain some things. What's your source on this?

[ShadowLordXII]

Actually, I agree though for a different reason.

 

Being able to recruit both mage and templar factions would enable players to directly confront and make a decision concerning the Mage-Templar conflict.

 

My issue with how the Mage/Templar missions are dealt with is that the player essentially side-steps the Conflict and focuses their attention on one group while leaving the other to the wolves. The PC never has a moment to directly put into action their views concerning mages and templars and whether they prefer one side; want to compromise; hate both; or are neutral.

 

Reworking the missions to where both groups can at least be partially recruited can create tension which could break and challenge the fledgling Inquisition. Then the Inquisitor will be able to put his/her foot down and make their stance known, which would add more credibility and respect to his reputation when he becomes Inquisitor. It also adds meat to the Inquisitor's viewpoints depending on how he acts and what his stance is in the mage-templar conflict and can even lead to making more enemies which in turn either boost Corypheus' numbers or become independent rogue mage/templar threats on their own.

[Dean_the_Young]

I think it's pretty obvious, IMO, that the plot was orignally written with both happening. Corypheus has red templars and venatori, and if you play the templar quest there's a significant # of them that get recruited. Presumably they made them exclusive because a lot of people asked for exclusive content. I bed that originally they were going to be like the Wardens/Orlais mission, i.e., just things we could do in any order. 

 

Personally I prefer the exclusive content paths- I think Bioware could use more of it- even if the writers couldn't decide whether Corypheus was a shadowy conspiracy (the Venatori) or some major army (the Red Templars).

[Gervaise]

I think part of the reason they went the way they did was to encourage people to play both versions.    If you choose to go with the Templars then you do encounter more Venatori and less Red Templars in game.    When you go to Crestwood after Hushed Whispers there are lots of red lyrium growing out of the ground; if you go after Champions of the Just it is no longer there.      It is part of the reason I prefer Champions of the Just because red lyrium is now less of a problem.

 

Still I would have preferred being able to follow both storylines, since the Calpurnia one is much more interesting than Samson and reveals more about Corypheus.   Samson's storyline reveals more about the bad side to the Chantry's control of lyrium and the Templars.     Getting the Templars on side to help you rescue the mages from the hands of the Venatori was actually the justification my Inquisitor had for going to them, even though he sympathised with the mages predicament.   He was not a mage and had been informed that a whole lot of weird magic was going on around Redcliffe.   Then in order to rescue the mages, he is expected to walk into the lair of the enemy without any magical back up whatsoever, except Dorian, a Tevinter mage he has only just met.   What idiot would do that?   So he goes off to enlist the help of the Templars both to assist with the breach and to deal with the Venatori but of course this means that he effectively abandons the mages to their fate.  

 

As it turned out it really doesn't matter who you choose, since ultimately the world state ends up pretty much the same regardless.   All the more reason both story arcs should have been integrated into one whole.

[vbibbi]

I think part of the reason they went the way they did was to encourage people to play both versions.    If you choose to go with the Templars then you do encounter more Venatori and less Red Templars in game.    When you go to Crestwood after Hushed Whispers there are lots of red lyrium growing out of the ground; if you go after Champions of the Just it is no longer there.      It is part of the reason I prefer Champions of the Just because red lyrium is now less of a problem.

 

Still I would have preferred being able to follow both storylines, since the Calpurnia one is much more interesting than Samson and reveals more about Corypheus.   Samson's storyline reveals more about the bad side to the Chantry's control of lyrium and the Templars.     Getting the Templars on side to help you rescue the mages from the hands of the Venatori was actually the justification my Inquisitor had for going to them, even though he sympathised with the mages predicament.   He was not a mage and had been informed that a whole lot of weird magic was going on around Redcliffe.   Then in order to rescue the mages, he is expected to walk into the lair of the enemy without any magical back up whatsoever, except Dorian, a Tevinter mage he has only just met.   What idiot would do that?   So he goes off to enlist the help of the Templars both to assist with the breach and to deal with the Venatori but of course this means that he effectively abandons the mages to their fate.  

 

As it turned out it really doesn't matter who you choose, since ultimately the world state ends up pretty much the same regardless.   All the more reason both story arcs should have been integrated into one whole.

While I appreciate exclusive content as a method to replay the game and see other options, I don't like when the exclusive paths reveal different information and my understanding of the game is incomplete until I've experienced all paths. I don't like that Calpernia and Samson are mutually exclusive and tell different stories which both flesh out Corypheus and his army. I shouldn't have to say "I prefer CotJ because then we get Calpernia's quest and more insight into Cory's motivations." Those motivations and characterization should be available to me regardless of which faction I sided with.

[leaguer of one]

 

The closing the breach cinematic scene fails to support the idea we needed a larger number of either templars or mages to close the breach. In the cinematic scene it is only a handful of templars or mages shown which is okay but doesn't help the only rebel mages or rebel templars motivation.

 

By the cinematic we already had enough powerful mages in the Inquistion to close the breach.

 

Only being able to use either the rebel mages or the rebel templars to close the breach just didn't work for me as a game mechanic/motivation. There was at least one circle of templars that could have been recruited. We could have had the option of collecting loyalist mages and/or dalish mages. Would have been fun to see Tevinter and the Qunari both provide mages and have to work together to close the breach.

 

Only rebel mages or rebel templars could help Quizzy close the breach just didn't seem to work in the way they were telling the story in-game.

 

Story-wise with the rebel mages and rebel templars, as we soon discover the obvious manipulation attempts by some entity, we should have been focused on rescuing the mages that weren't stupid enough to join the Ventori cult and the templars who weren't jonesing for red lyrium. And the time magic threat seemed important at the time if you went to Redcliffe.

 

To me the idea of recruiting what's left of the rebel templars when it becomes available makes more sense to then assault Redcliffe castle to save those rebel mages that will join you in fighting the Venatori and the stated threat of time magic instead of the risky commando raid we have to pretend is the best idea.

IMHO it's a better story and more epic start to get what templars you can salvage and assault Redcliffe castle. Saved rebel templars helping with saved rebel mages to fight a Tevinter cult threat that might be related to the breach and the destruction of their peace conclave. Maybe just hindsight but it seems a much better story. As opposed to what we have with a  pretend this scenario makes sense motivation so we can, I guess, have another mages vs templars choice. Instead the end to the mage-pimplar war is mages and pimplars are all generally Kirkwall stupid.

 

As a bonus of saving some of both group, we still have choices on what to do with what is left with each group.

 

If you go to the templars instead the game just say the mages left Redcliffe and the time magic threat I guess was just a false alarm since Alex decides it's not worth it to find the Quizzy and use it I guess. 
 

From a story perspective DAI is just what get's me to Trespasser. Although, DAI has many redeeming parts much of it becomes just filler for me that progresses the story with head cannon pretending that it all works as well as intended. In-game it's not a bad story continuation if I don't think about it much.

 

Happily since neither choice matters in-game I try to ignore champions of the just and in hushed whispers as just very superficial ideas that progress the game if you leave them behind.

 

In the cinematic they can only show so much. They did not show the entire group. 

[In Exile]

Interesting, this would help explain some things. What's your source on this?

 

I can't remember exactly the context in which I read it. It was either a dev post or twitter. What I do recall is that Lucas Kristjanson (whose last name I probably butchered) wrote In Your Heart Shall Burn. I think it was in the context of a post about the Dawn Will Come song, and how the person who created the cinematic was worried about its reception. 

 

This is also why In Your Heart Shall Burn is comparatively more polished than other parts of the game (not made at the same time) and has a different tone.

 

You can see how often DA:I was reworked/rewritten in some of the zones, too. Especially Crestwood, and especially if you bring Cole. 

[Cute Nug]

In the cinematic they can only show so much. They did not show the entire group. 

In the adamant cutscene they were able to show scope appropriate of a significantly large force. In the closing the breach cutscene we assume they choose not to show the entire group of rebel pimplars or rebel mages needed to seal the breach. Showing only a small group of pimplars or mages helping close the breach in the cutscene doesn't help or hurt the story in my opinion because it's an easy head cannon that the stated more needed were there.

 

We do have to ignore or head cannon the wonky assumption that only the rebel mages or the rebel pimplars that didn't want to talk to us were the only option to close the breach.

 

It's just one small point to agree with the OP that since this part of the DAI story-line had what some may consider story telling flaws or weak points maybe the OP proposed alternate way of moving through this point of the story would have worked better story-wise under the same constraints of game development and game mechanics limitations.

 

I tend to agree with the OP and others posting as they have eloquently stated rationale for why recruiting rebel pimplars to fight the Ventori at Redcliffe works better in terms of overall story content progression, immersion, believability, impact in the ongoing game world, and overall outcome.

 

This idea has no actual impact in changing the DAI game provided to us but IMO DAI was a good enough game that it's entertaining to consider topics like this.

[Cute Nug]

I can't remember exactly the context in which I read it. It was either a dev post or twitter. What I do recall is that Lucas Kristjanson (whose last name I probably butchered) wrote In Your Heart Shall Burn. I think it was in the context of a post about the Dawn Will Come song, and how the person who created the cinematic was worried about its reception. 

 

This is also why In Your Heart Shall Burn is comparatively more polished than other parts of the game (not made at the same time) and has a different tone.

 

You can see how often DA:I was reworked/rewritten in some of the zones, too. Especially Crestwood, and especially if you bring Cole. 

 

It would probably be fun to see a documentary on the making of DAI. I don't know if it would be the gold standard work on how to produce a Game Of The Year but that is what might have made it a good documentary. I think it is wonderful that they where able to reach 2014 GoTY status among their peers with all that went into making DAI.
 
On a side note, I really liked the writing for the dialogue Cory gives during In Your Heart Shall Burn. I still think he could have been better developed during the course of the game but I think the writing started Cory off well in DAI. The only loose end was they leave you to head cannon what happens to the three companions with you when you bring the avalanche down on Haven and jump to safety.

[In Exile]

It would probably be fun to see a documentary on the making of DAI. I don't know if it would be the gold standard work on how to produce a Game Of The Year but that is what might have made it a good documentary. I think it is wonderful that they where able to reach 2014 GoTY status among their peers with all that went into making DAI.

On a side note, I really liked the writing for the dialogue Cory gives during In Your Heart Shall Burn. I still think he could have been better developed during the course of the game but I think the writing started Cory off well in DAI. The only loose end was they leave you to head cannon what happens to the three companions with you when you bring the avalanche down on Haven and jump to safety.

I think the way the story was written the Inquisitor was notionally supposed to be alone as bait, but forcing you to solo that part of the game would suck. So they just handwaved away your companions disappearing.

[Cute Nug]

I think the way the story was written the Inquisitor was notionally supposed to be alone as bait, but forcing you to solo that part of the game would suck. So they just handwaved away your companions disappearing.

 

Yeah I tried going solo in the fight too but it wasn't as fun as having your companions along. For head cannon I tend to choose the ones who seem plausible that they could/would escape the avalanche given an opportunity and use the excuse that Cory likes to talk so much that they would have had plenty of time. It's a small moment in the game and easy to hand-wave off the set game mechanics.

[BansheeOwnage]

It's a though of mine that's been bouncing around for  quite a while but the whole idea of choosing between the mages and Templars is arbitrary given that regardless, you'll end up fighting Red Templars and Venatori anyway. 

 

Before anyone starts, I'm not asking for Bioware to give players some sort of "3rd option". I just think the Haven portion of the story should have been reworked from the ground up so that Templars and mages both were needed to help close the Breach, and that Templars needed to be recruited in order to free the mages from the Venatori at Redcliffe. Nothing about this restructuring would remove the options to ally with or conscript  Templars and mages, so nothing about how the Divine of your choice is elected would change since the point is to show your political opinion on the matter. 

I like your idea, not only because you fight both factions regardless like you said, but also since the Inquisition has mages and templars in its ranks regardless (which I thought was odd even if I would want that).

 

Does anyone else think it's really bizarre that you only needed about 6 templars/mages to close the breach? You already had that many of each before going recruiting...

[vbibbi]

I like your idea, not only because you fight both factions regardless like you said, but also since the Inquisition has mages and templars in its ranks regardless (which I thought was odd even if I would want that).

 

Does anyone else think it's really bizarre that you only needed about 6 templars/mages to close the breach? You already had that many of each before going recruiting...

And why couldn't Vivienne supply her loyalist mages in that case?