135 réponses à ce sujet

[CoM Solaufein]

No cupcake?

[GoldenGail3]

I like all three, but if I had to choose, I'd prefer the in-betweener most.
 
Unlike a lot of people in this thread, I feel like the badass normal has been done to death actually. Though I am slightly biased because I lob the "underdog ends up on top" role together with the badass normal. And this role is the most liked because it's the easiest to relate to and (often) overcomes the biggest hurdles with limited tools. Also the idea that we, "normals" could possibly do the same things as the person on the screen gives us a bit of a confidence boost. Which is exactly why I feel this one is "meh". Too easy to do. I still like it of course, but it wouldn't impress me.
 
Special snowflake wouldn't impress me either, as it often blurs into a Mary Sue. The whole idea that they're "the only one who can stop x or y" really drives home that yes, this character is going to overcome all difficulties, make it to the end and defeat the evil, because there's nobody else who can and most stories have a happy ending. Kinda spoils the entire story before it's even started. So yeah, also meh for me. Again, I do like the role from time to time, but it's easy and spoils the story.
 
I feel the inbetweener has the positives but not the negatives from the other two.

Thank you. You wrote my feelings about it (although I really, really, hated Hawke with a passion. I hate the fact I felt nothing when Hawke's mother died a horrible death. Or when anything tragic struck Hawke really, I didn't feel much. Maybe annoyance at it taking my time away).

[Ieldra]

Either that or Empowered Baddass Normal.  Start out normal, but learn you have or develop over time superpowers (like the Bhaalspawn, Revan, the Spirit Monk) or gain a cool magical artifact like the Inquisitor

Indeed, and now that I think of it.....I like it that way. Some variety is good, but this is where I'd like to return eventually. It's actually a variant of the "in-between" category, though I think the Inquisitor has more of the "special" category since the Mark unique and it's just dropped into your lap, unlike, say, the Warden, who has to undergo a ritual and pay a heavy price for their powers, or the Bhaalspawn, whose powers are as much a curse as a gift for large parts of the story, and who are both neither unique nor hailed as a saviour before the end of the story.

[BabyPuncher]

Doesn't make a difference either way if they can't actual qualities into the character.

[BabyPuncher]

From my point of view, it's always better to have a choice about something.

 

I really don't know about that.

 

I wouldn't consider a life numbed to suffering and struggle the kind of the life that produces great men.

[d1ta]

DA4 will allow you to play as Chosen of Elgar'nan. You receive both powerful tool and mandate directly from him.

Elgar'nan: "Here is your special power of specialness. Now go forth and fight Fen'harel for me. Victory or else."



.. I kid.

Either way is okay for me anyway, I don't mind being that ordinary joe or that special snowflake. I think it's more important to me on how it is presented. And how the story unfolds from there.

That being said, my favourite protags so far is the Inquisitor (who gain her mark but then lost it), Shepard (That 'plain' N7 dudette who later became.. what ever it is that Miranda has cooked up) and my very first DnD character. Named her Annorfilmawen from NWN main campaign (just an elf who graduated top of her class. Granted she had the advantage of longer years, but an ordinary elf nevertheless)

[Dean_the_Young]

Being honest here, I don't think Bioware has ever employed the bad-ass normal protagonist properly. Even their "down to earth" stories, like ME1 and DA2, involve a protagonist able to slaughter armies at the blink of an eye. In general, I don't think bad-ass normal is all that conducive to the murder gameplay of your average video game. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that.

 

I agree- it tends to come down to being the specialist snowflake of all.

 

'Badass normal' generally only works when the character is actually at a consistent and real disadvantage against the people with superpowers. For a character like Batman, who always has the tools and smarts and skills, there's little actual tension... and little separating him from the people with superpowers, not least because it's often them struggling to keep up with him.

 

In a video game, 'badass normal' definitely doesn't go hand-in-hand with 'one man army' gameplay, where you slaughter foes by the hundreds. That's simply badass- 'normal' needs to come from the contrast between the character and the abnormals.

 

 

I'm honestly trying to think of a game that did 'badass normal' well, and the closest I can come to are some stealth-genre games... and shooter games where the player dies almost as soon as they're shot. Metal Gear is probably the best next to that- at least when you're not playing as he-who-won't-be-named.

[Il Divo]

I agree- it tends to come down to being the specialist snowflake of all.

 

'Badass normal' generally only works when the character is actually at a consistent and real disadvantage against the people with superpowers. For a character like Batman, who always has the tools and smarts and skills, there's little actual tension... and little separating him from the people with superpowers, not least because it's often them struggling to keep up with him.

 

In a video game, 'badass normal' definitely doesn't go hand-in-hand with 'one man army' gameplay, where you slaughter foes by the hundreds. That's simply badass- 'normal' needs to come from the contrast between the character and the abnormals.

 

 

I'm honestly trying to think of a game that did 'badass normal' well, and the closest I can come to are some stealth-genre games... and shooter games where the player dies almost as soon as they're shot. Metal Gear is probably the best next to that- at least when you're not playing as he-who-won't-be-named.

 

Exactly, it's essentially "normal" in name only, while denying all the characteristics that actually go with the title. It's essentially calling Batman bad-ass normal, when like you said, his incarnations expanded into someone who essentially has super-human levels of planning. In general, I'm a Batman fan, but that's also why Year One ranks among my favorite stories; it's the closest he's ever been to the "normal" aspect of the title.

 

But in that regard, I find very little normal about either Shepard in ME1 or even DA2 Hawke. Even worse than Shepard, since he's on the "save the world" kick, which is about as opposite as bad ass normal as we can get.

​

[Dean_the_Young]

Exactly, it's essentially "normal" in name only, while denying all the characteristics that actually go with the title. It's essentially calling Batman bad-ass normal, when like you said, his incarnations expanded into someone who essentially has super-human levels of planning. In general, I'm a Batman fan, but that's also why Year One ranks among my favorite stories; it's the closest he's ever been to the "normal" aspect of the title.

 

But in that regard, I find very little normal about either Shepard in ME1 or even DA2 Hawke. Even worse than Shepard, since he's on the "save the world" kick, which is about as opposite as bad ass normal as we can get.

​

 

Badass normals can save the world, but rarely when they're the super-elite from the start. Their victories tend to need to be contextual against people with powers as well- the point of planner being to lead into a trap, not out-box the monsters, and so on.

 

 

 

Actually, I just thought of a genre which works well with the badass normal: zombie/horror games. Since a lot of the tension in zombie games is from being weak and overwhelmed against the masses and monsters, being exceptional there can help.

 

Leon from Resident Evil 4 is probably a good example of a badass normal. Cop/special agent, saving the President's Daught, and so on- but never relying on superhuman feats as such.

[Wulfram]

Thinking about the DAI story as a story, I think the protagonists badassness bothers me more than their special snowflakeness

Protagonist was in the right/wrong place and the right/wrong time and picked up a power crucial to saving the world - OK
Protagonist gets hailed as a holy figure because of those powers, though they may or may not believe that themselves - Interesting
Protagonist rises to the challenge of leadership that circumstance has put them in - Cool
Protagonist also turns out to be one of the best combatants in the world, independently of their special ability - seems unnecessary and makes the protagonist a bit of a mary sue.

I wonder if we couldn't have a DA game where the companions were actually better combatants than the protagonist, so we don't have to be like Frodo, Aragorn and Legolas all wrapped into one.

[Ieldra]

Thinking about the DAI story as a story, I think the protagonists badassness bothers me more than their special snowflakeness

Protagonist was in the right/wrong place and the right/wrong time and picked up a power crucial to saving the world - OK
Protagonist gets hailed as a holy figure because of those powers, though they may or may not believe that themselves - Interesting
Protagonist rises to the challenge of leadership that circumstance has put them in - Cool
Protagonist also turns out to be one of the best combatants in the world, independently of their special ability - seems unnecessary and makes the protagonist a bit of a mary sue.

I wonder if we couldn't have a DA game where the companions were actually better combatants than the protagonist, so we don't have to be like Frodo, Aragorn and Legolas all wrapped into one.

I'd love to have a story with a non-combatant protagonist, but I'm afraid that won't happen as long as crpgs continue to have this ridiculous overabundance of combat. If I have to spend 75% of the game fighting and otherwise dealing with combat-related stuff like sorting out fighting equipment, I want to be good at it. 

[abisha]

Indeed, and now that I think of it.....I like it that way. Some variety is good, but this is where I'd like to return eventually. It's actually a variant of the "in-between" category, though I think the Inquisitor has more of the "special" category since the Mark unique and it's just dropped into your lap, unlike, say, the Warden, who has to undergo a ritual and pay a heavy price for their powers, or the Bhaalspawn, whose powers are as much a curse as a gift for large parts of the story, and who are both neither unique nor hailed as a saviour before the end of the story.

 

not really sure why you see being blighted as a power it's more a curse then anything.

also a child of Bhaal aint exectly a "gift" ether.

you are right on the mark tho.

[Gwydden]

I'd love to have a story with a non-combatant protagonist, but I'm afraid that won't happen as long as crpgs continue to have this ridiculous overabundance of combat. If I have to spend 75% of the game fighting and otherwise dealing with combat-related stuff like sorting out fighting equipment, I want to be good at it. 

If a cRPG had in-depth mechanics for leadership, socialization, research, and other non-combat related activities, mechanics with as much care put into them as it is currently the case with those related to combat... Well, that would be a pretty damn promising videogame. Funny how after all these years cRPGs haven't managed to accomplish what PnP RPGs have been doing for decades.

[cindercatz]

I don't have any particular preference one way or the other, so long as they enrich the narrative and are sufficiently supported by the game story. The only BioWare protags I think have really lived up to that are the Warden and Revan. One had variable playable origins, and the other had significant, plot critical backstory we discovered along the way. I can imagine a not exceptionally badass normal protag that would work just as well in a game designed around their concept, so it doesn't really matter. Just decide which direction you're gonna go, fully support that through the storytelling, and I'm good.

[Ryzaki]

I like my special snowflakes they're at least honest about being absurd. 

[Iakus]

I'd love to have a story with a non-combatant protagonist, but I'm afraid that won't happen as long as crpgs continue to have this ridiculous overabundance of combat. If I have to spend 75% of the game fighting and otherwise dealing with combat-related stuff like sorting out fighting equipment, I want to be good at it. 

Age of Decadence, which just came out, boasts that combat is only once path through the story (and is supposedly one of the harder methods) I just rolled a merchant character with minimal combat skills and loaded up with "talky" skills and intend to put that to the test 

[Ariella]

If a cRPG had in-depth mechanics for leadership, socialization, research, and other non-combat related activities, mechanics with as much care put into them as it is currently the case with those related to combat... Well, that would be a pretty damn promising videogame. Funny how after all these years cRPGs haven't managed to accomplish what PnP RPGs have been doing for decades.

 

Well considering the fact that a GM can improvise on the spot, throw out or bend rules a little that don't fit the story and all the hundreds of little things that a human can do, but a computer can't... Unless we get true AI, cRPGs are never going to be the same thing as PnP, and expecting them to be is somewhat silly.

 

If we ever do get true AI, I'll be more concerned about welcoming our new computer overlords than a better cRPG.

[Ieldra]

Age of Decadence, which just came out, boasts that combat is only once path through the story (and is supposedly one of the harder methods) I just rolled a merchant character with minimal combat skills and loaded up with "talky" skills and intend to put that to the test 

Thank you for mentioning this. I'll look into it.

[cindercatz]

Age of Decadence, which just came out, boasts that combat is only once path through the story (and is supposedly one of the harder methods) I just rolled a merchant character with minimal combat skills and loaded up with "talky" skills and intend to put that to the test 

I rolled a custom class like that in a PC steampunk RPG (I can't remember its title at the moment) back around the millennium. Called it "practical" something. You were supposed to be able to get through the game any way you chose, and I loved the idea of it. I got pretty well stuck at the first random travel encounter though. Couldn't negotiate with random bandits, lol. I'd love to see a modern RPG really run with that all the way. Non-combat playthrough.

[Iakus]

I rolled a custom class like that in a PC steampunk RPG (I can't remember its title at the moment) back around the millennium. Called it "practical" something. You were supposed to be able to get through the game any way you chose, and I loved the idea of it. I got pretty well stuck at the first random travel encounter though. Couldn't negotiate with random bandits, lol. I'd love to see a modern RPG really run with that all the way. Non-combat playthrough.

Well, I'm only in the second chapter of this game.  But so far I have been in only one combat, which was entirely optional (it was an arena fight)  Otherwise I have been able to talk, bribe, or threaten my way though everything.  Heck once I solved two separate quests to deal with groups of troublemakers by bribing one group to attack the other!  

 

This guy's like if a Ferengi and TOny SOprano had an illicit love child 

[kimgoold]

I saw my Warden as a Special Snowflake, especially when by Witch Hunt she had FOUR Specialisations and over 45 spells/talents as opposed to the piddling 8 the inquisitor can use in game. (Bring Back the Radial Wheel for talents - Seriously!)

 

edit: and this was thru console 360, so no mods or cheats used only elements in game, Tomes.

[Youknow]

Both have their places. I really don't have a preference. I swing both ways. 

[GoldenGail3]

I saw my Warden as a Special Snowflake, especially when by Witch Hunt she had FOUR Specialisations and over 45 spells/talents as opposed to the piddling 8 the inquisitor can use in game. (Bring Back the Radial Wheel for talents - Seriously!)
 
edit: and this was thru console 360, so no mods or cheats used only elements in game, Tomes.

The Warden can die though... By losing there soul... To an Archdemon. I think people should be saying 'oh the Inquistor? Can't die. Special Snowflake person they are, you have lost a limb, but losing your soul is so much worse'. I really wanted to kill some of my Inquistors, too. And I can't, becuase they're so untouchable. Sorry, bud, a lost of your arm Is nothing compared to what the Warden loses.

[ShadowLordXII]

I saw my Warden as a Special Snowflake, especially when by Witch Hunt she had FOUR Specialisations and over 45 spells/talents as opposed to the piddling 8 the inquisitor can use in game. (Bring Back the Radial Wheel for talents - Seriously!)

 

edit: and this was thru console 360, so no mods or cheats used only elements in game, Tomes.

 

Really? I didn't know that the Warden could have up to 4 specializations, I thought that the cap was 3.

 

Though one could argue that the Warden's been through enough turmoil to where they've earned their op status the hard way at that point.

[Il Divo]

Well, I'm only in the second chapter of this game.  But so far I have been in only one combat, which was entirely optional (it was an arena fight)  Otherwise I have been able to talk, bribe, or threaten my way though everything.  Heck once I solved two separate quests to deal with groups of troublemakers by bribing one group to attack the other!  

 

This guy's like if a Ferengi and TOny SOprano had an illicit love child 

 

This sounds absolutely amazing.