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Did you believe Blackwall? [spoilers]


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#1
phishface

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We know Ranier is a liar. And we know he's a murderer.

 

He killed a family of six plus an unknown number of retainers. He let most of his loyal men be executed. He allowed the Inquisition to make public commitments based on his false status as a Grey Warden. He hid like a coward for years.

 

Why should we believe him when he says he didn't muder Blackwall? His credibility is zero. And at the time he met Blackwall, Ranier was still hiding, still running away from his crimes: still a liar and a murderer. The warden's death was highly convenient for him - allowing Ranier to assume the perfect false identity.

 

So he had a strong motive to kill the Warden, at the exact time when murder and dishonesty were what he was about. I think he probably did it.



#2
myahele

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Not really sure why he would lie about it. He was already prepared (and wanted) to die and the truth was out for everyone to hear


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#3
Mlady

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I believe him. It took a lot to confess to what he did to the family. And that was an accident. He had no idea it was his family in there, he just focused on the task to get the money. If he would have admitted knowing children were there and let them attack anyways, then he would not have been pardoned by my Inquisitor, but he never knew and that guilt alone was killing him. He wanted to start over and in that case would have confessed to killing Blackwall if he really did, and when he takes you to the place where he died if you romance him, it's the Storm Coast where the Darkspawn linger and the Deep Roads can be accessed in Descent, so I believe him.

 

Almost all GW are criminals trying to start over. This was his chance to do that, but it ended tragically instead and then he made it worse by taking advantage of it, but at the same time he really was trying to find a reason to keep going besides hiding from his past.


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#4
Former_Fiend

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I don't see the Gordon Blackwall's murder as being convenient to Thommy boy, at all. Becoming a warden absolves you from past crimes. If Thom became a warden he could walk openly through the streets of Val Royeaux and there's nothing the authorities could do about it. And it isn't like he wouldn't know that; that's common knowledge. Sure, being a warden is a hard life, but I have to imagine it would be preferable to living alone in the woods for months at a time, wandering the roads under a false name. 

 

Besides that, he had just publicly admitted to the murders of an entire family, including children. I don't see him denying another murder after that.


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#5
Nixou

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Why should we believe him when he says he didn't muder Blackwall?

 

 

Because we have a magic bipedal lie detector on the Inquisition's payroll


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#6
phishface

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Because we have a magic bipedal lie detector on the Inquisition's payroll

 

Actually that's a very good point. I guess I was wrong. Oh well


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#7
caradoc2000

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If he wasn't trying to atone, why would he be conscripting those guys in the intro scene? Not to mention, if you try to walk away, he is the one who suggests joining the Inquisition. Not very low profile I'd say.

 

Also, if he hadn't gone to the execution, the truth might never have come out.


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#8
Former_Fiend

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Ignoring that, he could have gone to the execution and saved the guy by invoking the right of conscription. Instead, he chose to tell the truth and confess his part in it.


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#9
Xilizhra

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You know what I kind of wish? That we could ask the Grey Wardens, if we allied with them, to conscript him and not make it any issue of the Inquisition's, to avoid any potential issues with that "they'll know the Inquisition is corrupt" stuff.


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#10
Iakus

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We know Ranier is a liar. And we know he's a murderer.

 

He killed a family of six plus an unknown number of retainers. He let most of his loyal men be executed. He allowed the Inquisition to make public commitments based on his false status as a Grey Warden. He hid like a coward for years.

 

Why should we believe him when he says he didn't muder Blackwall? His credibility is zero. And at the time he met Blackwall, Ranier was still hiding, still running away from his crimes: still a liar and a murderer. The warden's death was highly convenient for him - allowing Ranier to assume the perfect false identity.

 

So he had a strong motive to kill the Warden, at the exact time when murder and dishonesty were what he was about. I think he probably did it.

By the time  he tells us what happened to the real Blackwall, he's already confessed to everything else you've listed.  And is quite willing to die a public execution for it.  Lying at that point would be less than pointless.

 

 

 

You know what I kind of wish? That we could ask the Grey Wardens, if we allied with them, to conscript him and not make it any issue of the Inquisition's, to avoid any potential issues with that "they'll know the Inquisition is corrupt" stuff.

 

You can sentence Blackwall to be given over to the Wardens once Corypheus is dealt with.

 

Or do you mean ask the Wardens to conscript him directly from Val Royeaux?



#11
SgtSteel91

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You know what I kind of wish? That we could ask the Grey Wardens, if we allied with them, to conscript him and not make it any issue of the Inquisition's, to avoid any potential issues with that "they'll know the Inquisition is corrupt" stuff.

 

I always imagine using the Josephine option involves her telling the ruler of Orlais the Grey Wardens have called the Rite of Conscription and the Inquisitor doesn't tell Thom at the judgment to gauge his reaction (or make him sweat).

 

It's a non-issue anyway, give him to the Grey Wardens and Blackwall continues to do what he's been doing before meeting the Inquisitor; helping people in-between Warden Duties.



#12
Xilizhra

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You can sentence Blackwall to be given over to the Wardens once Corypheus is dealt with.

 

Or do you mean ask the Wardens to conscript him directly from Val Royeaux?

The latter. But I suppose it all works out, as his epilogue if you free him is better.



#13
Jedi Master of Orion

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Killing Blackwall was exactly the opposite of what would have benefited Thom Rainer. Assuming his identity and pretending to be a Warden is something that someone may eventually see through and realize that he's a wanted criminal hiding from the law.

 

Not killing Blackwall means he would have become a Grey Warden for real and actually been legally pardoned for whatever he did.


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#14
AtreiyaN7

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Great - already gone over stuff like this a billion times in the Blackwall thread. *rolleyes*

 

Rainier publicly confesses to his sins in Val Royeaux to save one of his own men and accepts that it means a death sentence for him. He has no actual reason to do something like that when he could have kept right on lying and hiding things (or even run off again) if he'd really wanted to continue the charade, but his conscience is clearly weighing on him a lot by the time he finds that report/note about Mornay's impending execution, and he does the right thing at long, long last because he no longer wants to pretend or to lie (EDIT: which is, of course, due to fact that he is a changed man and is a fair bit different from the person he used to be). And as far as I'm concerned, a man who confesses to being directly responsible for a massacre and willingly takes on a death sentence has little reason to lie about anything anymore at what he believes to be the end of his life.

 

Do you seriously, seriously think that Rainier lying about Blackwall's death would have benefited him in some way once he had received his death sentence? What is your logic there? He pretty clearly lays out everything that he did, why he did it, and accepts responsibility for the massacre when you talk to him in prison. Lying about Blackwall's death wouldn't save him, now would it? So what reason does he have to go and lie about that? Sure, the guy took on another man's identity for a while and hid the truth about himself, but when it was time to come clean about his past sins, he did.

 

Furthermore, the events of Trespasser - assuming that you freed him/sent him to the Wardens - make it pretty clear that his remorse and desire to atone were genuine and that he has done his best to make up for what he did. Rainier actually spends a good chunk of time traveling around and to find his remaining men to apologize to them in person for his actions in the two years between Corypheus's defeat and Trespasser (and he has just gotten back from one such trip at the beginning of the DLC). In the epilogue, he also goes on to do good things by helping others who have lost their way like he did better themselves and find some measure of redemption (if you free him).


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#15
In Exile

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You know what I kind of wish? That we could ask the Grey Wardens, if we allied with them, to conscript him and not make it any issue of the Inquisition's, to avoid any potential issues with that "they'll know the Inquisition is corrupt" stuff.


That would have been an interesting option, with him them being "on loan" to the Inquisition. Which is what ends up happening anyway if you do Warden him.

#16
vertigomez

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I thought this was gonna be about that time he claimed his giant sword was there to counterbalance his dick. I am disappoint. :(
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#17
Andraste_Reborn

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I thought this was gonna be about that time he claimed his giant sword was there to counterbalance his dick. I am disappoint. :(

 

I really wish a romanced Inquisitor could weigh in on that banter ...


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#18
DuskWanderer

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I see no reason for Rainier to lie, and it doesn't really make a difference for him to do so. 



#19
d1ta

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He could've just let the prisoner die.
Keep quiet about it, no one will find out and he could've live his life scott free and enjoy his grey warden status that has enough privilage to hang around the inquisitor.

But he didn't.
He decided to show up and confes his crimes in fully knowing that his good deeds (although he's doing it under false identity) will be tarnished, he will be reviled and loathed followed by an execution and die knowing that people who once look at him with awe and admiration would look at him no better than a monster.

What he did is still horrible, that is without question. But he has shown a change of heart, trying in his own way (though not the correct one at first, by lying) to make amends even before he met the inquisitor and join her/his organization. And that effort in trying to do good culminated when he finally made the honorable choice in showing up so his ex subordinate can be free.

I let him join the inquisition again because in the end, when he has a choice between death or dishonor, he choses death.

That, and it seems very easy for my quizzy to get his approval.
Lavellan looks at trees --> Blackwall approves
Lavellan pets the kitten --> Blackwall approves
:D yes, we are a team of goody two shoes. It seems that my lass only needs to 'breathe' and 'exist' and Blackwall will appeove :D how weird is that. And they aren't even dating ;)
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#20
vertigomez

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I really wish a romanced Inquisitor could weigh in on that banter ...


For real! Especially a dwarf Quizzie, considering his comment was in response to perceived dwarfy compensation issues. Someone's not getting any tonight... :whistle:
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#21
Excella Gionne

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At least he confessed. Lying publicly would be stupid, especially in his situation. He was basically asking to die, and so, if he did kill the Gordon Blackwall, he may as well have confessed that too. There's no point in lying any further, he is still going to die if you leave him in jail. If there's anyone that can prove it, it's Cole. Physically, there's no evidence to prove anything. Alastair will reference Blackwall being a familiar name, but without Alastair, Blackwall is merely another name. So who knows, maybe he made the whole thing up. 



#22
Silent X

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Yes, I believed him, for reasons many of which have already been stated in this thread. In addition, Cullen (who, for the record, is incensed at Rainier's actions) notes that he decided to confess just when he had effectively shaken off his past--he had everything to lose by turning himself in and fully expected, and wished, to be executed. He was clearly trying to come clean, and therefore it would make no sense for him to deny killing the Warden Constable if he had done so. And as others have already pointed out, the real Blackwall's death was not convenient for him at all. Living under a false identity is very risky, even if you're careful. 

 

Also, as Nixou has pointed out, Cole would know if Blackwall were lying. If you travel around with both of them in your party after Revelations, they have a number of banters about Blackwall's past. Some of these may depend on Cole being more spirit, as one of the ones I heard started out with Blackwall questioning Cole's decision to forgive the Templar who had killed the original, human Cole. He objected to Cole's making the Templar forget what he'd done, and Cole said he understood that Blackwall was afraid that if he forgot his crimes, he might become that way again. There's also a banter in which Blackwall asks Cole if he's angry at him now that he knows the truth, to which Cole replies that he always knew. When Blackwall asks why Cole didn't tell on him, Cole says he didn't because Blackwall wanted to change. Cole states unequivocally, "You are Blackwall. You killed Rainier," and goes on to say that he knows that if Blackwall could go back, he would stand between his younger self and the carriage to save Callier and his family. What more proof do you need?

 

I also disagree with your assertion that Rainier met Blackwall "at the exact time when murder and dishonesty were what he was about." Some time passed between the Callier massacre and when he met Blackwall, and if you ask him about how they met, Rainier says he was basically drinking himself into a stupor. I get the impression that was his habit at the time. It's clear (again from a banter with Cole) that he was horrified to realize Callier's children were with him, and it sounds like in the moment he just froze, unable to process the situation he'd put himself and his men in. By all indications, he was consumed with guilt right after the massacre but yes, he was also a coward at the time, so he hid. He wandered the land, trying to drown his guilt in alcohol because he didn't know what else to do. Warden Constable Blackwall offered him a sense of direction he had previously lacked. And if you doubt this, look at his actions at the time you recruit him and his behavior while he's with the Inquisition. He shows an obvious devotion to helping and protecting people who can't help or protect themselves, to a degree that is not required merely in order to masquerade as a Grey Warden. Grey Wardens are not required to protect farmers from bandits or to approve of the Inquisitor doing similar things. 

 

His compunction is obvious. You can certainly consider it inadequate, and if you don't feel that his efforts at atonement expiate his crimes, then you are free to leave him in prison and let him hang. But there is really no room to doubt his sincerity when he finally confesses.


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#23
vbibbi

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I thought this was gonna be about that time he claimed his giant sword was there to counterbalance his dick. I am disappoint. :(

 

But that's obviously true, so there's no way anyone could doubt that or bring it up for debate.


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#24
vertigomez

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But that's obviously true, so there's no way anyone could doubt that or bring it up for debate.


I'm afraid I'm going to need photographic evidence.

For... evidence. :ph34r:
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#25
vbibbi

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