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[Primorus]

Is it just me, or have the Elven gods been retconned multiple times now? Do we have any idea what they are?

 

First, they were the Creators to the Dalish (Origins codex entries). Then, they were the wellspring of Elven prosperity, but not actually their creators (David Gaider, 2009. "The Chantry, the Maker, the Old Gods: questions"), now they were supposedly just extremely powerful beings (Solas dialogue, Trespasser DLC)? 

 

Even the authoritative sources on the matter are contradictory. The Prima Official Game Guide included in the Origins Collector's Edition claims that the Evanuris, unlike the Tevinter Old Gods, never walked the mortal world. But Solas clearly states that they were Elven mages who, in the same manner that the Inquisitor inevitably attracts a cult following, became more and more legendary until they were inevitably deified (Solas, op. cit.). His claim that he banished them to the Fade by creating the Veil doesn't even make sense if the Evanuris were Elves like him. Why wasn't he sealed along with them? 

 

Also, as an aside... I wonder if the Forgotten Ones mentioned in Elven lore are actually just the spirits of the Fade? Fen'Harel was supposedly able to walk among them as though he were kin, and Solas has demonstrative connection with spirits. Likewise, the Forgotten Ones were sealed away in the Fade with the creation of the Veil, which would corroborate Elven legend on the matter. Or, maybe, were they the Old Gods of Tevinter? That may explain Flemeth's obsession with Urthemiel's soul, and how that spark of godhood transferred in a manner similar to the transfer of Flemeth's essence into Solas in the Inquisition epilogue.

 

And as a final aside... why did Solas even need his orb/the anchor to gain access to the Fade? It has been clearly demonstrated that anyone with sufficient power can enter the Fade through an eluvian, and I refuse to believe that Solas was unable to locate any of them when he evidently had gained control of the entire network within a few years of waking from his slumber. I furthermore refuse to believe that Solas wasn't strong enough to open the portal to the Fade when the feat was accomplished by Kieran, a mere child. (I speculate that Kieran didn't really need to be all that strong to open a portal to the Fade, he just had to figure out the trick to it... something that either Urthemiel's soul could have revealed through the dreams Kieran mentioned during his meeting with Flemeth, or Flemeth herself revealed to Kieran whilst "calling" to him. Either way, I'm sure Morrigan could do it if she knew the steps, even if she doesn't have the power she thinks is required.)

But I digress... Flemeth was able to enter the Fade without an orb or anchor, so its significance seems highly suspect. Maybe there was a miscommunication in the writing team? Or maybe they had to come up with a MacGuffin that would drive the plot (giving the Inquisitor the means to seal rifts, and Corypheus a reason to bother with the Inquisition at all)? Either way, every time an answer seems to present itself, it only seems to raise more questions. You have to wonder how much of this the writers are simply making up as they go along. 

 

Anyway, this discussion/rant has briefly flirted with coherency, but it's 5:30 a.m. and I should end it here. 

 

Share your insights and theories! 

[Reznore57]

No the Evanuris/Creators haven't been retconned .

The thing with DA lore is ...there's very few things you can take at face value , the lore you get is usually what the people of Thedas know about their world.Basically nothing is set in stone , it's kind of frustrating sometimes ...

And yeah sure the writers are making things up as they go too.

 

About Solas going into the Fade , yes he could probably use an Eluvian but to tear down the veil he needs a huge amount of power , that power was in the orb and now it's gone.

He got Flemythal power instead , but she wasn't an Evanuris at her full power .What was left of Mythal was only a whisp and she never recovered fully from being murdered .

[Evamitchelle]

Is it just me, or have the Elven gods been retconned multiple times now? Do we have any idea what they are?
 
First, they were the Creators to the Dalish (Origins codex entries). Then, they were the wellspring of Elven prosperity, but not actually their creators (David Gaider, 2009. "The Chantry, the Maker, the Old Gods: questions"), now they were supposedly just extremely powerful beings (Solas dialogue, Trespasser DLC)?

Those first two things do not contradict each other. The Dalish might call them the Creators, but they don't actually believe them to have created the world, or the elves. Mostly, they believe that the elven pantheon guided and taught them (i.e. June showed them how to make weapons, Andruil how to hunt, Falon'Din guided them in uthenera etc.) So saying that the Creators were the 'wellspring of Elven prosperity' is a very accurate way of describing the Dalish's religious beliefs. Also, note that the post by David Gaider you're mentioning goes on to say that: "As for the elves, their understanding of their own religion is incomplete." and  "Thus the Dalish have slowly reassembled a religion from those pieces of lore, though how complete it is cannot be known." Trespasser goes on to prove that. The Evanuris weren't really gods (though that might depend on your definition of godhood), but actually extremely powerful mages who, over time, came to be revered as gods by the ancient elves. 
 
The Dalish have an incomplete knowledge of their history, which was acknowledged in the first game. Inquisition and Trespasser shed some light on that history, but it can't really be called a retcon, as that history was portrayed as incomplete and doubtful from the beginning.  
 

Even the authoritative sources on the matter are contradictory. The Prima Official Game Guide included in the Origins Collector's Edition claims that the Evanuris, unlike the Tevinter Old Gods, never walked the mortal world. But Solas clearly states that they were Elven mages who, in the same manner that the Inquisitor inevitably attracts a cult following, became more and more legendary until they were inevitably deified (Solas, op. cit.). His claim that he banished them to the Fade by creating the Veil doesn't even make sense if the Evanuris were Elves like him. Why wasn't he sealed along with them?

Why would he be ? Creating the Veil didn't banish all the other elves either. And it's not like creating the Veil was easy for him. He's had to spend about 4000 years unconscious and still woke up significantly weaker than he was before.
 

Also, as an aside... I wonder if the Forgotten Ones mentioned in Elven lore are actually just the spirits of the Fade? Fen'Harel was supposedly able to walk among them as though he were kin, and Solas has demonstrative connection with spirits. Likewise, the Forgotten Ones were sealed away in the Fade with the creation of the Veil, which would corroborate Elven legend on the matter. Or, maybe, were they the Old Gods of Tevinter? That may explain Flemeth's obsession with Urthemiel's soul, and how that spark of godhood transferred in a manner similar to the transfer of Flemeth's essence into Solas in the Inquisition epilogue.

If the Forgotten Ones were spirits, then they'd be specific ones, not just spirits as a whole. In the locked chamber in JoH you find a veilfire rune in old even called Geldauran's Claim which makes him sound like a definite entity. "I am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me. Let Andruil's bow crack, let June's fire grow cold. Let them build temples and lure the faithful with promises. Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery."

As for the Old Gods, there are a few connections between them and the Elven Pantheon: both have 7 members – once you remove Fen'Harel and Mythal - the Old Gods start speaking to humans not long after the creation of the Veil, they're asking the Magisters to go to the Black City in the Fade, which is where the Creators were supposedly locked away. Both the Old Gods and the Forgotten Ones are said to be locked in the Abyss rather than the Fade. On the other hand, Solas says that there is nothing that connects the Old Gods with the Elven Gods (loosely paraphrasing here). He could always be lying, but it seems weird that he would be so categorical about it when most of his other lies are mostly of omission. Also, both he and Mythal seem to want to preserve the Old Gods, whereas they both really hate the Evanuris. 

[Aren]

I love the Evanuris

 

 

 

Fen'Harel: The Dread Wolf 

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The Dread Wolf is an enigmatic trickster god of the elves, whose supposed betrayal of both the benevolent Creators and malefic Forgotten Ones is the only explanation most elves have to explain the destruction of Arlathan. Dalish clans view him with wariness and seek to protect themselves and their kin from his treachery.

 

It is revealed by Solas in Mythal's temple that this could be a misinterpretation by the Dalish and instead he was the god of rebellion.

 

Elgar’nan God of vengeance

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Elgar'nan—also known as the All-Father, the Eldest of the Sun and He Who Overthrew His Father[9]—represents fatherhood and vengeance, and leads the pantheon with the goddess Mythal.

 

Mythal Mythal: the Great Protector

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Mythal, the Protector and the All-Mother, and goddess of love, is the patron of motherhood and justice and leads the pantheon with her male counterpart, Elgar'nan.

 

 

Falon'Din: Friend of the Dead, the Guide

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Falon'Din is the elven God of Death and Fortune and guides the dead to the Beyond. He and his twin brother, Dirthamen, are the eldest children of Elgar'nan the All-Father and Mythal the Protector.

 

 

Dirthamen: Keeper of Secrets

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Dirthamen is the twin brother of Falon'Din and is the elven god of secrets and knowledge, and master of the ravens Fear and Deceit. Dirthamen gave to elves the gift of knowledge and taught them loyalty and faith in family

 

 

Andruil: Goddess of the Hunt

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Andruil is the elven Goddess of the Hunt, known also as "blood and force" and the "great hunter."

 

 

Sylaise: the Hearthkeeper 

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Sylaise, the Hearthkeeper, is the goddess of all the domestic arts[12] and the sister of Andruil the Huntress. Sylaise gave the elves fire, taught them how to weave rope and thread, and to use herbs and magic for healing purposes.

 

 

June: God of the Craft

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June is the elven Master of Crafts. He is described either as a brother to Andruil and Sylaise or as Sylaise's husband . He taught the elves to make bows, arrows, and knives to hunt Andruil's gifts.

 

 

 

Ghilan'nain: Mother of the Halla (or mother of all beasts?)

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Ghilan'nain is called the Mother of the halla—white deer-like creatures revered by the Dalish and used to pull their aravel, or "landships"—and goddess of navigation.

[ShadowLordXII]

No the Evanuris/Creators haven't been retconned .

The thing with DA lore is ...there's very few things you can take at face value , the lore you get is usually what the people of Thedas know about their world.Basically nothing is set in stone , it's kind of frustrating sometimes ...

And yeah sure the writers are making things up as they go too.

 

I'd both agree and disagree at the same time.

 

The Writers found a cleaver lope-hole regarding internal consistency and narrative cohesion here which I'd find both cleaver and annoying at the same time. Basing the "rules" of Thedas' world, history and mechanics on what the people in that world know allows room for surprises and even new ideas should the writers come up with one later.

 

If an idea contradicts a pre-established rule, the writers can just say that this is new information unknown to most in Thedas and therefore, insulate themselves from accusations of retcons or being inconsistent with their story.

 

As far as the Evanuris is concerned, the twists here work and it makes sense considering just how little that the Dalish know about their past and I can't see where past information is outright contradicted.

[Primorus]

As for the Old Gods, there are a few connections between them and the Elven Pantheon: both have 7 members – once you remove Fen'Harel and Mythal - the Old Gods start speaking to humans not long after the creation of the Veil, they're asking the Magisters to go to the Black City in the Fade, which is where the Creators were supposedly locked away. Both the Old Gods and the Forgotten Ones are said to be locked in the Abyss rather than the Fade. On the other hand, Solas says that there is nothing that connects the Old Gods with the Elven Gods (loosely paraphrasing here). He could always be lying, but it seems weird that he would be so categorical about it when most of his other lies are mostly of omission. Also, both he and Mythal seem to want to preserve the Old Gods, whereas they both really hate the Evanuris. 

 

The idea about the Old Gods and the Evanuris has been bandied before, if I recall, and for a long time I thought it was quite promising. However, as you point out, Solas outright denies that they are one and the same. But, then, perhaps the nail isn't quite in the coffin; as we have already established, the writers love to turn around and say "well technically it isn't exactly how you suspect, but you're still right in a way". The conspicuousness of their similar numbers, as well as the timing of the Old Gods coming to prominence after the strife began in Arlathan is worth bearing in mind. 

 

Old Gods: Dumat, Zazikel, Toth, Andoral, Urthemiel, Razikale, Lusacan

Evanuris: Elgar'nan, Falon'Din, Dirthamen, Andruil, Sylaise, June, Ghilan'nain (plus Mythal and Fen'Harel)

 

The question that is raised by this hypothesis, however, is why the Evanuris would support humans to enslave the People? Did they gamble on regaining power, only to have it backfire, as did Solas' plan to give Corypheus his orb? Or were they embittered that their servants had turned on them? Why would they even whisper to the Vints at all, when they undoubtedly had supporters yet among the elves who would brave the Fade to enter the Golden/Black City? 

 

I personally feel that the two groups of powers -- the Old Gods and the Evanuris -- are too prominent in Dragon Age lore to not be connected somehow, but at this point it is likely that we will have to wait to see what the writers will reveal in Dragon Age 4 before we can understand that connection. My compunction at this point is that the Elven pantheon seems to be getting changed over and over again to fit what the writers need at the time. I just want to establish what they are, and understand how they were banished... 

[Wulfram]

Could the Old Gods somehow be what is holding the Evanuris imprisoned?

[MrMrPendragon]

Don't believe everything you read from codex entries. These are the ultimate hype machines. Unless someone from that time/era explains what things really are (like what Solas did), assume everything you read in the codexes are mostly lies.

 

Codex entries are just there to somewhat prepare a canvas for the writers to put their characters in. They basically give you an idea of who these characters are, but the descriptions are very vague, like 90% of Flemeth's dialogue.

 

Then, when the time comes to introduce these characters, the writers will change these characters to fit in with what they need - and before a fan yells retcon, the writers go "oh well the codex entries are from the perspective of the dalish elves/qunari/whoever". It's almost like a free pass

 

 

Btw, Sylaise being a hot redhead in the pic above, I can see why the elves worshipped her.

[Primorus]

Also, while we're on the subject of wild theories about the Elven pantheon, there's this jewel about Andruil and Sera. 

 

TL;DR - Sera, like Flemeth, might hold the wisp of an Elven god within her. It would explain the cryptic **** Cole says to her, plus her inexplicable love of hunting dragons, and finally her utter hatred for Mythal. Sera, however, is in denial about it and can't come to terms with the dreams she has. 

[Morroian]

If you want some great detailed discussion on these issues amongst others there's a fantastic thread in the story campaign and characters forum:

 

http://forum.bioware...1#entry19697085

[Vit246]

*snip*

 

 

Where did you get these pictures?

[Absafraginlootly]

Most of the lore in dragon age is presented by the people who actually live there, whether that be in codices or face to face, as such they can be wrong.

[Primorus]

Most of the lore in dragon age is presented by the people who actually live there, whether that be in codices or face to face, as such they can be wrong.

 

I know that author fallibility (and, in many cases, author integrity) is questionable across the span of Dragon Age lore. I also have a degree in Classics, so I am familiar with all the tricks authors might use to twist, misrepresent, or wildly interpret the truth in a supposedly "historical" account (try reading any three of the ancient accounts of the life of Alexander the Great if you really want a clear example). 

 

My compunction isn't that we don't know what's true or false, my compunction is that what is implied to be true (vis-a-vis the conspicuous elements and obvious (deliberate) inconsistencies in the lore) is constantly being changed. 

 

It's like if you didn't know what the colour azure was, and someone said "it isn't green as you know it". Well, it turns out that azure is much more closely related to blue, with only a slight tinge of green (less so, even, than present in "blue-green" colours such as cyan or cerulean). So, while they are absolutely correct that blue certainly isn't "green as you know it", by having said it "isn't green as you know it" they are implying that it's still green, just not a hue with which you am familiar. It's a lie. 

 

Only, in this case, it seems to be the case that the initially cryptic "not green as you know it" phrase was supposed to intend that the colour (which, because this metaphor is getting convoluted, I will clarify as being the placeholder for the Evanuris) was still actually green, but then the writers later decided to make it blue and used the vagueness of the earlier statement as a rather shaky mechanism to exculpate themselves from accusations of "retconning". I'm just not buying it.

 

TL;DR - I'm not falling into the trap of history being constantly re-written, I'm lamenting that the same writers of history are clearly undecided on certain key matters which have great significance to the plot. As such, frustrating contradictions are manifesting.