123 réponses à ce sujet

[BloodKaiden]

Vivienne doesn't give you a mage's perspective. She gives you the Chantry's anti-mage perspective just worded differently.

*disgusted noise*

[thetinyevil]

"Vivienne Mages are people too,"

 

VIVIENNE GREATLY DISAPPROVES

[Former_Fiend]

Well, simple fact was that Loyalists were the third largest frat in the circle. That isn't an insignificant amount of people who's opinions Vivienne is meant to represent. 

[thats1evildude]

The fact is, nearly half of the mages voted against war. Are all those mages not TRUE mages either?

[thetinyevil]

Well, simple fact was that Loyalists were the third largest frat in the circle. That isn't an insignificant amount of people who's opinions Vivienne is meant to represent. 

Then why didn't couldn't we just use the loyalists to close the breach?

 

I can only think of one of two reasons, either Vivienne talking out of her ass and wasn't leading the loyalists or there just wasn't enough loyalist to make a difference. Personally I think Vivienne was just talking out of her ass, since she was on the verge of becoming her worst fear. Irrelevant

[thetinyevil]

The fact is, nearly half of the mages voted against war. Are all those mages not TRUE mages either?

Your right! NONE of the mages voted FOR war. They just voted to leave the circle which should have been their right to do so. But the Seekers and Templars didn't want to give up their power so they declared war on the mages. 

[BloodKaiden]

Then why didn't couldn't we just use the loyalists to close the breach?

I can only think of one of two reasons, either Vivienne talking out of her ass and wasn't leading the loyalists or there just wasn't enough loyalist to make a difference. Personally I think Vivienne was just talking out of her ass, since she was on the verge of becoming her worst fear. Irrelevant

Because once the Mage/Templar war began it didn't matter what side of the spectrum you were on. You either scatter to the wind, join the rebels, or pretty much die. Or in Vivi's case have the Empress's protection.

[Former_Fiend]

Then why didn't couldn't we just use the loyalists to close the breach?

 

I can only think of one of two reasons, either Vivienne talking out of her ass and wasn't leading the loyalists or there just wasn't enough loyalist to make a difference. Personally I think Vivienne was just talking out of her ass, since she was on the verge of becoming her worst fear. Irrelevant

 

There were loyalists among the rebels who figured that once the vote was cast, that was it, and just went along with the crowd. You get to speak with at least two of them, which is more than the mages you get to speak to who are ardently in favor of the rebellion, at least after the Tevinter alliance.

 

Of course, I never said they were particularly smart or independent thinkers.

 

The real reason, of course, is plot. The number of mages we need to help close the breach is entirely arbitrary. If we really only needed four, as the cut scene suggests, the Inquisition had that without needing to recruit anyone.

[thats1evildude]

Then why didn't couldn't we just use the loyalists to close the breach?

Because many of the loyalists were FORCED to fight anyway. The vote to end the Circle rendered them all apostates and, thus, enemies of the templars. Others went into hiding or had other resources to draw on, like Vivienne. And some were killed by their fellow mages when they refused to join the cause in spite of the vote.

[thats1evildude]

The real reason, of course, is plot. The number of mages we need to help close the breach is entirely arbitrary. If we really only needed four, as the cut scene suggests, the Inquisition had that without needing to recruit anyone.

Keep in mind that just because you only saw a few mages/templars doesn't mean they weren't spread throughout the valley. It's like the war camp at Ostagar: the portion you could explore couldn't accomodate an army of hundreds of men (if not thousands). But it would be impossible to feature a whole goddamn war camp.

[Bleachrude]

No takers on my "what would a mage advisor do differently in a war table mission?" question?

 

How about the 2nd war table mission that has options for all 3 advisors

The Teyrn of Highever - It's actually interesting in this war table that it is Josephine that suggests sending templars who knew the divine while Cullen is the one who suggests sending Fereldens.

[thetinyevil]

No takers on my "what would a mage advisor do differently in a war table mission?" question?

 

How about the 2nd war table mission that has options for all 3 advisors

The Teyrn of Highever - It's actually interesting in this war table that it is Josephine that suggests sending templars who knew the divine while Cullen is the one who suggests sending Fereldens.

Well the templars are kinda seen as an invading force and we know how Fereldens feel about that. Cullen also knows that even before the mage/templar war templars didn't have the best standing with most people. 

[Former_Fiend]

Keep in mind that just because you only saw a few mages/templars doesn't mean they weren't spread throughout the valley. It's like the war camp at Ostagar: the portion you could explore couldn't accomodate an army of hundreds of men (if not thousands). But it would be impossible to feature a whole goddamn war camp.

 

I'm aware. My point is that how ever many dozens or hundreds of mages Vivienne had with her - the number is never specified and doesn't represent the sum total of loyalist mages in Thedas - the number of mages required to power the mark and open the breach is that much greater, because the plot demands that we either recruit the Templars or the Mages. No hard numbers for how many we have in the Inquisition to start are given, no hard numbers are given for how many we recruit. The only numbers given are "not enough" and "enough".

[Bleachrude]

Well the templars are kinda seen as an invading force and we know how Fereldens feel about that. Cullen also knows that even before the mage/templar war templars didn't have the best standing with most people. 

 

Except that Josephine's reward is the same as Cullen, along with a very thankful written response similar to what Cullen and Leliana get. Honestly though, that's not realy important since my question still hasn't been answered. How does a mage advisor handle this?

[thetinyevil]

Except that Josephine's reward is the same as Cullen, along with a very thankful written response similar to what Cullen and Leliana get. Honestly though, that's not realy important since my question still hasn't been answered. How does a mage advisor handle this?

I was thinking about this...I figure a mage would recommend sending Chantry clergy to Highever, since it is a remembrance for the Divine.

[MisterJB]

Well the templars are kinda seen as an invading force and we know how Fereldens feel about that. Cullen also knows that even before the mage/templar war templars didn't have the best standing with most people. 

Cullen was referring only to the Templars in Kirkwall.

 

In Dragon Age Inquisition, Connor will tell you how every city in Thedas except Redcliff has closed their doors to the mages. Lysas and Fiona tell us how everyone is blaming the mages for the war and the Divine's death. There are multiple War Table missions where we must save mages from mobs.

 

On the other hand, Leliana says how the people trust Templars and allying with them will help the Inquisition. There are war table missions where grateful populace wants to build statues to honor the Templars. Val Royeaux was all but begging for the Templars to protect them.

 

You may not like it but the people of Thedas clearly prefer the Templars over the mages. 

[SgtSteel91]

I wish there were War Table mission like the Templar exclusive ones where you can improve the Templar's reputation or have them help people. Or even the Allied Grey Warden missions where they save a town from Darkspawn and take down a Venatori Cell.

 

Like if you ally with the Mages, you get War Table Missions like 

 

• Salvage the Inquisition's Reputation: Many Noble Houses are withdrawing support and money from the Inquisition because it allied with the Rebel Mages and fears it will Destroy the Chantry/Create the Next Tevinter/unleash Demons on the World/etc. Josephine suggests you send diplomats with Rebel Mage representatives to assure the Nobles the Inquisition and its allies are dedicated to restoring Order and/or offer services if they support the Inquisition again. Leliana suggests finding where the slander is coming from and "persuade" the perpetrators to stop gossiping and support the Inquisition. Cullen suggest making a declaration that the Inquisition, while allied to the Rebels, will crack down on abuses of Magic and will watch the Mages for corruption (all but saying the Inquisition is the new Templar Order).
• Trust in the Free Mages: People fear Mages and they need to trust them if they can trust the Inquisition. Josehpine suggests sending out healers to support refugees. Leliana suggests applying their studies and enchanting to think up new solutions to help people. Cullen suggests creating an "Arcane" Unit comprising of Mages and Templars to battle Demons and Venatori and protect the public.
• Snakes within the Free Mages; You may have stopped Alexius from conscripting the Free Mages into the Venatori but there may be Venatori agents and sympathizers within the Free Mages ranks. Leliana can work with Fiona to do background checks on all the Mages to see who is really a Venatori or if the Mage can be a Venatori sympathizer.
• Deal with Extremists: The Inquisition may have supported the Rebellion but Mage Extremists/Supremacists see the allied Mages as "selling out" and continue to harass the public. You can deal with the extremists by yourself or allow the Free Mages to help you convince them to stand down, if they can, or help stop the Extremists.
• An Olive Branch to the King of Fereldan: Fiona may have told you she doesn't want to meet Alistair but when has that stopped you from getting into people's personal lives? Have Josephine set up a meeting with the Grand Enchanter and the King under the guise of repairing relations.
  • An Olive Branch to the Queen of Fereldan: If Anora is sole Ruler then it's just diplomatic talks to repair relations.
• Another Fiona Mission where she draws on her experience as a Grey Warden to train or help Allied Grey Wardens in some way.
• Or some War Table Chain with Fiona like you can have with Ser Barris where she can 'redeem' herself or show she can be an effective leader despite what happened at Redcliff.

[Bleachrude]

I was thinking about this...I figure a mage would recommend sending Chantry clergy to Highever, since it is a remembrance for the Divine.

 

But that doesn't seem to be something only a mage advisor could do...hell, reading this thread, I get the impression they want a Rebel mage as an advisor and no rebel mage would suggest the Chantry....so we;re back to the question "what does a mage advisor suggest diferently for war missions".

 

EDIT: 

I actually agree with SgtSteel that there should've been some war table missions where the consequences of "allying with the mages" plays out. Especially with Fiona......

[SgtSteel91]

I actually agree with SgtSteel that there should've been some war table missions where the consequences of "allying with the mages" plays out. Especially with Fiona......

 

• The Grand Enchanter: Do you damn Fiona into a boring clerical position in the Inquisition with not real power as punishment for Redcliff or give her a second chance be the Leader the Mages need? The latter option starts a War Table Quest chain that serves to 'redeem' Fiona like the Ser Barris missions do to elevate him into the ideal Templar fit for the position of Knight Commander/Knight Vigilant.

[TobiTobsen]

 

I wish there were War Table mission like the Templar exclusive ones where you can improve the Templar's reputation or have them help people. Or even the Allied Grey Warden missions where they save a town from Darkspawn and take down a Venatori Cell.

 

Like if you ally with the Mages, you get War Table Missions like 

 

• Salvage the Inquisition's Reputation: Many Noble Houses are withdrawing support and money from the Inquisition because it allied with the Rebel Mages and fears it will Destroy the Chantry/Create the Next Tevinter/unleash Demons on the World/etc. Josephine suggests you send diplomats with Rebel Mage representatives to assure the Nobles the Inquisition and its allies are dedicated to restoring Order and/or offer services if they support the Inquisition again. Leliana suggests finding where the slander is coming from and "persuade" the perpetrators to stop gossiping and support the Inquisition. Cullen suggest making a declaration that the Inquisition, while allied to the Rebels, will crack down on abuses of Magic and will watch the Mages for corruption (all but saying the Inquisition is the new Templar Order).
• Trust in the Free Mages: People fear Mages and they need to trust them if they can trust the Inquisition. Josehpine suggests sending out healers to support refugees. Leliana suggests applying their studies and enchanting to think up new solutions to help people. Cullen suggests creating an "Arcane" Unit comprising of Mages and Templars to battle Demons and Venatori and protect the public.
• Snakes within the Free Mages; You may have stopped Alexius from conscripting the Free Mages into the Venatori but there may be Venatori agents and sympathizers within the Free Mages ranks. Leliana can work with Fiona to do background checks on all the Mages to see who is really a Venatori or if the Mage can be a Venatori sympathizer.
• Deal with Extremists: The Inquisition may have supported the Rebellion but Mage Extremists/Supremacists see the allied Mages as "selling out" and continue to harass the public. You can deal with the extremists by yourself or allow the Free Mages to help you convince them to stand down, if they can, or help stop the Extremists.
• An Olive Branch to the King of Fereldan: Fiona may have told you she doesn't want to meet Alistair but when has that stopped you from getting into people's personal lives? Have Josephine set up a meeting with the Grand Enchanter and the King under the guise of repairing relations.
  • An Olive Branch to the Queen of Fereldan: If Anora is sole Ruler then it's just diplomatic talks to repair relations.
• Another Fiona Mission where she draws on her experience as a Grey Warden to train or help Allied Grey Wardens in some way.
• Or some War Table Chain with Fiona like you can have with Ser Barris where she can 'redeem' herself or show she can be an effective leader despite what happened at Redcliff.

 

 

I approve of this. That would've been much better than Fiona sitting in the library, doing squat and telling everybody that she would do her Leeeeroy Jenkins routine all over again.

[Dabrikishaw]

 

I wish there were War Table mission like the Templar exclusive ones where you can improve the Templar's reputation or have them help people. Or even the Allied Grey Warden missions where they save a town from Darkspawn and take down a Venatori Cell.

 

Like if you ally with the Mages, you get War Table Missions like 

 

• Salvage the Inquisition's Reputation: Many Noble Houses are withdrawing support and money from the Inquisition because it allied with the Rebel Mages and fears it will Destroy the Chantry/Create the Next Tevinter/unleash Demons on the World/etc. Josephine suggests you send diplomats with Rebel Mage representatives to assure the Nobles the Inquisition and its allies are dedicated to restoring Order and/or offer services if they support the Inquisition again. Leliana suggests finding where the slander is coming from and "persuade" the perpetrators to stop gossiping and support the Inquisition. Cullen suggest making a declaration that the Inquisition, while allied to the Rebels, will crack down on abuses of Magic and will watch the Mages for corruption (all but saying the Inquisition is the new Templar Order).
• Trust in the Free Mages: People fear Mages and they need to trust them if they can trust the Inquisition. Josehpine suggests sending out healers to support refugees. Leliana suggests applying their studies and enchanting to think up new solutions to help people. Cullen suggests creating an "Arcane" Unit comprising of Mages and Templars to battle Demons and Venatori and protect the public.
• Snakes within the Free Mages; You may have stopped Alexius from conscripting the Free Mages into the Venatori but there may be Venatori agents and sympathizers within the Free Mages ranks. Leliana can work with Fiona to do background checks on all the Mages to see who is really a Venatori or if the Mage can be a Venatori sympathizer.
• Deal with Extremists: The Inquisition may have supported the Rebellion but Mage Extremists/Supremacists see the allied Mages as "selling out" and continue to harass the public. You can deal with the extremists by yourself or allow the Free Mages to help you convince them to stand down, if they can, or help stop the Extremists.
• An Olive Branch to the King of Fereldan: Fiona may have told you she doesn't want to meet Alistair but when has that stopped you from getting into people's personal lives? Have Josephine set up a meeting with the Grand Enchanter and the King under the guise of repairing relations.
  • An Olive Branch to the Queen of Fereldan: If Anora is sole Ruler then it's just diplomatic talks to repair relations.
• Another Fiona Mission where she draws on her experience as a Grey Warden to train or help Allied Grey Wardens in some way.
• Or some War Table Chain with Fiona like you can have with Ser Barris where she can 'redeem' herself or show she can be an effective leader despite what happened at Redcliff.

 

These are really good ideas.

[In Exile]

Because many of the loyalists were FORCED to fight anyway. The vote to end the Circle rendered them all apostates and, thus, enemies of the templars. Others went into hiding or had other resources to draw on, like Vivienne. And some were killed by their fellow mages when they refused to join the cause in spite of the vote.

How can she lead a group that rebelled and went with Fionna? It seems like Viviene's title is self-styled.

[Former_Fiend]

How can she lead a group that rebelled and went with Fionna? It seems like Viviene's title is self-styled.

 

It's likely the mages Vivienne leads are the ones who never went to join Fiona in the first place.

 

Vivienne had a special place of protection as the Court Mage to Celene and mistress to one of the members of the Council of Heralds. She never needed to run and join the rebels after everything hit the fan. It's likely a few loyalist from the surrounding area decided to make their way to her instead of joining the others for the vote, or that she gathered up stragglers that the rebellion left behind, or both.

[Bleachrude]

 

• The Grand Enchanter: Do you damn Fiona into a boring clerical position in the Inquisition with not real power as punishment for Redcliff or give her a second chance be the Leader the Mages need? The latter option starts a War Table Quest chain that serves to 'redeem' Fiona like the Ser Barris missions do to elevate him into the ideal Templar fit for the position of Knight Commander/Knight Vigilant.

 

 

It should actually involve templars a la how Barris involves mages but I'm not sure it could be structured properly.

 

The problem with Fiona though is that unlike Barris, she has shown no moderation in her views - say the man in the war table mission "investigate man accused of being an abomination" _WAS_ actually an abomination or a blood mage, I don't think Fiona would even consider having templars kill said man

 

Remember, Barris even before you rescue him and the others _WAS_  already a good templar and understood his job/title. Fiona never once struck me as one who actually thinks templars serve any purpose.

[SgtSteel91]

It should actually involve templars a la how Barris involves mages but I'm not sure it could be structured properly.

 

The problem with Fiona though is that unlike Barris, she has shown no moderation in her views - say the man in the war table mission "investigate man accused of being an abomination" _WAS_ actually an abomination or a blood mage, I don't think Fiona would even consider having templars kill said man

 

Remember, Barris even before you rescue him and the others _WAS_  already a good templar and understood his job/title. Fiona never once struck me as one who actually thinks templars serve any purpose.

 

I wasn't thinking of involving Templars like Ser Barris involves Mages. Something more like Fiona has Mages work with the Inquisition and local governments to save falsely accused Mages, use Magic to help people, or put down maleficarum/abominations, a la what Codex Entry: Rebel Mages claims in their leaflets. Or maybe she surprises you and is willing to work with Templars as equals, not "protector and practitioner."