123 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleachrude]

Actually, I always thought the Rebel Mages leaflet was one of the problems with the Rebel mages and why I think a potential Fiona war table mission SHOULD involve templars.

 

The statement "We condemn those practitioners of magic who, through illness of mind or understandable but misguided anger at those who oppressed them" assumes one thing - namely that only mages of sick mind and/or "oppressed" mages would abuse their powers. It basically ignores the fact that quite frankly, the large majority of mages who do abuse their powers ARE doing it because well, they;re dicks,

 

Fiona herself should know this already because in The Calling", she had to deal with a young mage who from background reading was well frankly, just a selfish little girl.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, I always thought the Rebel Mages leaflet was one of the problems with the Rebel mages and why I think a potential Fiona war table mission SHOULD involve templars.

You could have Fiona be involved with Answer a Request from Hasmal, perhaps.

[TK514]

I think we're pretty much full up on Mages, none of whom is even the least bit hesitant to give their advice.  Though I would have enjoyed watching the mage-freedom reaction had Viv been the official mage adviser.

[Sifr]

How can she lead a group that rebelled and went with Fionna? It seems like Viviene's title is self-styled.

 

From all that it amounts to in the game, it probably is.

 

That we see several mages who were either part of the Aequitarian or Loyalist factions who either ended up on their own or were forced to join the Rebellion because they had nowhere else to go, seems to suggest that for all her talk of being the leader of the "last loyal mages", she's far too busy hosting her galas to actually lead efforts to bring those desiring sanctuary under her banner.

 

Vivienne can best be described as the leader of the Loyalist mages who are still in the Circles with the Templars that didn't go rogue. For anyone who was a Loyalist, an Aequitarian or Formari who had their Circle fall, their fellow Mages or the Templars try to murder them and had to go on the run... well, that's bad luck for them, I guess?

 

They really should have taken more time to explore her position as the leader of the Loyalist faction or as the counterpoint and foil to Fiona's position as head of the Rebels. She should have been far more of a player in the resolution or aftermath of the war (however it played out) than what we got, especially since her personal questline (ignoring the book collection one, which was more of miniquest) did not involve the Circle, but was rather to help her brew some magic red bull for Bastien.

 

A throwaway line or cutscene where she was shown to be organising something would have been enough, as well as explain why she too was absent from the Conclave, despite apparently being someone who would have wanted it to succeed and end the war?

[Xilizhra]

From all that it amounts to in the game, it probably is.

 

That we see several mages who were either part of the Aequitarian or Loyalist factions who either ended up on their own or were forced to join the Rebellion because they had nowhere else to go, seems to suggest that for all her talk of being the leader of the "last loyal mages", she's far too busy hosting her galas to actually lead efforts to bring those desiring sanctuary under her banner.

 

Vivienne can best be described as the leader of the Loyalist mages who are still in the Circles with the Templars that didn't go rogue. For anyone who was a Loyalist, an Aequitarian or Formari who had their Circle fall, their fellow Mages or the Templars try to murder them and had to go on the run... well, that's bad luck for them, I guess?

 

They really should have taken more time to explore her position as the leader of the Loyalist faction or as the counterpoint and foil to Fiona's position as head of the Rebels. She should have been far more of a player in the resolution or aftermath of the war (however it played out) than what we got, especially since her personal questline (ignoring the book collection one, which was more of miniquest) did not involve the Circle, but was rather to help her brew some magic red bull for Bastien.

 

A throwaway line or cutscene where she was shown to be organising something would have been enough, as well as explain why she too was absent from the Conclave, despite apparently being someone who would have wanted it to succeed and end the war?

Vivienne wasn't actually a Loyalist; she never joined any of the fraternities. And her ideology doesn't really match the Loyalists' either; she's not truly loyal to the tenets of the Chantry so much as she sees the Chantry's power structure as being the most viable one for mages to flourish under. If she would fit in any of the fraternities, I would say she's closest to a particularly ruthless and pragmatic Aequitarian.

[Sifr]

Vivienne wasn't actually a Loyalist; she never joined any of the fraternities. And her ideology doesn't really match the Loyalists' either; she's not truly loyal to the tenets of the Chantry so much as she sees the Chantry's power structure as being the most viable one for mages to flourish under. If she would fit in any of the fraternities, I would say she's closest to a particularly ruthless and pragmatic Aequitarian.

 

If Vivienne isn't in the Loyalist fraternity, wouldn't this confirm that her claim of leading the loyalists is just her inflating her credentials?

 

Since it's likely that the Loyalists as the most die-hard Chantry supporters would have been at the Conclave, would it even be that surprising if the main bulk of that faction had died in the explosion, leaving Vivienne in a position to assume leadership in the aftermath? I doubt anyone still alive would be in a position to challenge her over the title.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Loyalist fraternity and "The Loyalist Mages" wouldn't necessarily mean the same thing during a Mage Rebellion. It could just mean any mages who refused to join the rebellion against the Chantry.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Loyalist fraternity and "The Loyalist Mages" wouldn't necessarily mean the same thing during a Mage Rebellion. It could just mean any mages who refused to join the rebellion against the Chantry.

 

Which could even include pro-independence mages who think it's a really, really bad idea to go about with the rebellion at this time, and in this way. Far-sighted ones who could foresee the predictable outcome of Fiona's unplanned rebellion- of isolation and military disaster- and feel it's better to not engage in any rebellion than join a losing one.

 

Just because you want independence doesn't mean you think any path towards it is a good idea: 'ends justify the means' isn't an attitude that can be slapped onto any destination to demand loyalty.

[Xilizhra]

Which could even include pro-independence mages who think it's a really, really bad idea to go about with the rebellion at this time, and in this way. Far-sighted ones who could foresee the predictable outcome of Fiona's unplanned rebellion- of isolation and military disaster- and feel it's better to not engage in any rebellion than join a losing one.

 

Just because you want independence doesn't mean you think any path towards it is a good idea: 'ends justify the means' isn't an attitude that can be slapped onto any destination to demand loyalty.

The amount of internal debate rising from such an arrangement would be interesting! It kind of makes you wish that any of these mages had some kind of reference in the game beyond Vivienne's claims that they exist.

 

(I do genuinely think it's interesting, as that was my human mage PC's backstory, as a Libertarian who voted against the rebellion.)

[TK514]

The amount of internal debate rising from such an arrangement would be interesting! It kind of makes you wish that any of these mages had some kind of reference in the game beyond Vivienne's claims that they exist.

 

(I do genuinely think it's interesting, as that was my human mage PC's backstory, as a Libertarian who voted against the rebellion.)

 

I agree.  But then I felt this issue, on the whole, lacked the depth I thought it deserved in Inquisition.

[Xilizhra]

I agree.  But then I felt this issue, on the whole, lacked the depth I thought it deserved in Inquisition.

I think this may have been a consequence of Exalted March's cancellation.

 

Damn you, DA2 haters.

[TK514]

I think this may have been a consequence of Exalted March's cancellation.

 

Damn you, DA2 haters.

Indeed.

[Vit246]

The amount of internal debate rising from such an arrangement would be interesting! It kind of makes you wish that any of these mages had some kind of reference in the game beyond Vivienne's claims that they exist.

 

(I do genuinely think it's interesting, as that was my human mage PC's backstory, as a Libertarian who voted against the rebellion.)

 

The problem is, once again, Bioware trying to cram too many storylines into one game. We had the mage-templar war. We had the orlesian civil war. We had the grey wardens thing. We had the ancient elves thing. And we had fraking Corypheus. Frankly they didn't have enough time to properly develop the mage-templar war as a really international war with factions. Or maybe after 2 games they just gave up at writing mages and put in whatever the hell came up and then pushed it to the sideline.

[Wulfram]

The problem is, once again, Bioware trying to cram too many storylines into one game. We had the mage-templar war. We had the orlesian civil war. We had the grey wardens thing. We had the ancient elves thing. And we had fraking Corypheus. Frankly they didn't have enough time to properly develop the mage-templar war as a really international war with factions. Or maybe after 2 games they just gave up at writing mages and put in whatever the hell came up and then pushed it to the sideline.

Honestly, I think they listened to us. Always a questionable move. Lots of people after DA2 were all "we're sick of Mage/Templar stuff". But they couldn't totally ignore it after DA2 so they used Corypheus as an excuse to sweep it aside

[Hazegurl]

I only heard about it yesterday, but according to what I read:

 

* Vivienne was originally going to be an advisor. When she was changed to a companion, she was almost cut from the game entirely.

* Vivienne was originally a lot more cold hearted and murderous. Bastien's death was originally a result of her poisoning him.

Damn, those two things would have been much more interesting than what we got.  Still love Vivi though.

[Former_Fiend]

To be fair I'm not entirely convinced she didn't poison him in game. It's just more open to interpretation. 

[Colonelkillabee]

You can't trust templars either or Chantry priests.

Templars were following orders, orders of men corrupted by red lyrium. No one and nothing made the mages stupid. They just came as is.

 

Don't like templars, but if I had to choose between the two as an ally and not conscript either, it'll be the templars. Especially because they can function as actual military already.

[Hazegurl]

Honestly, I think they listened to us. Always a questionable move. Lots of people after DA2 were all "we're sick of Mage/Templar stuff". But they couldn't totally ignore it after DA2 so they used Corypheus as an excuse to sweep it aside

I don't blame them for wanting to sweep it aside.  After listening to Anders' incessant whining throughout the entire game, Fenris barking at everything (still like him though), and the silliness of the entire Mage/Templar plot. I just wanted it to be over.  The Mages in DAO came across much more intelligent and put together (except for Jowan and Uldred) with varying degrees of opinions.  Whereas they eventually dissolved into a bunch of Jowan archtypes who share one braincell as the series progressed.  Walking into Inquisition listening to everyone whine about Mages and Templars again only contributed to the meh of the first part of the game, but I was glad they let us handle that first.

 

Actually, the most interesting thing that came out of DAI was Trespasser.

[Shechinah]

I don't blame them for wanting to sweep it aside.  After listening to Anders' incessant whining throughout the entire game, Fenris barking at everything (still like him though), and the silliness of the entire Mage/Templar plot.

 

Many people, I believe, felt this line resonate within them.

 

Carver: "I don't hate you because you are a mage. I hate you because you won't shut up about it."
 

[Dean_the_Young]

Honestly, I think they listened to us. Always a questionable move. Lots of people after DA2 were all "we're sick of Mage/Templar stuff". But they couldn't totally ignore it after DA2 so they used Corypheus as an excuse to sweep it aside

 

From a meta-perspective, I think (and I remember arguing more than once) that the outcomes of Mage/Templar were always going to be in spitting distance of eachother, so that the future games would be semi-comparable world states. I didn't expect the manner that it did- Circles re-established, with a rival group- but it was a predictable sort of outcome to allow future games to take place in Chantry-Andrastian Thedas and actually have any mage plotline worth the name.

 

Once you accepted that mages were going to be plot-relevant in the future, there was going to be some sort of equalizer- and Corypheus was as good as any, short of 'the war depends on the PC- except that it doesn't.'

 

Probably for the best, is all I'm saying.

[Hazegurl]

Many people, I believe, felt this line resonate within them.

 

Carver: "I don't hate you because you are a mage. I hate you because you won't shut up about it."
 

I've let Bethany die ever since I heard Carver say that. 

[Dabrikishaw]

From a meta-perspective, I think (and I remember arguing more than once) that the outcomes of Mage/Templar were always going to be in spitting distance of eachother, so that the future games would be semi-comparable world states. I didn't expect the manner that it did- Circles re-established, with a rival group- but it was a predictable sort of outcome to allow future games to take place in Chantry-Andrastian Thedas and actually have any mage plotline worth the name.

 

Once you accepted that mages were going to be plot-relevant in the future, there was going to be some sort of equalizer- and Corypheus was as good as any, short of 'the war depends on the PC- except that it doesn't.'

 

Probably for the best, is all I'm saying.

If I had went into Inquisition thinking this about the Mage-Templar outcome, then yeah it wouldn't be surprising that Bioware did it. I learned my lesson.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

There are no mage advisers because mages are too awesome and far too brilliant to need advice.

[Andreas Amell]

If anybody wants advice on magic, talk to the hand. It's all glowing and powerful.