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[themikefest]

Propaganda.

Why would the Reapers reveal their actual fleet strength?

How is that revealing their strength?

[Mathias]

Propaganda.

Why would the Reapers reveal their actual fleet strength?

 

Psychological warfare is what Sovereign was pretty much doing with that line. I mean there are a ton of Reapers, but yeah he was pretty much lying with that one.

[Sylvius the Mad]

How is that revealing their strength?

It wasn't. That's the point. It was gross exaggeration.

[themikefest]

It wasn't. That's the point. It was gross exaggeration.

I wouldn't say Sovereign was exaggerating going by the possible numbers the reapers might have. Here's a post about how many they may have.

[Mathias]

It was just a bad idea to make the Reapers as powerful as they were. I mean it was really cool and interesting at the time, but once you start getting down to the point where the heroes have to actually confront these things, there's not a lot of wiggle room there. The proper way to do it is to establish a way throughout your story for the good guys to gain the power to confront the bad guys. That's where Mass Effect 2 was suppose to come in. Istead the writers went on a complete tangent, and when ME3 came out they had written themselves into a corner.

 

It's actually quite amazing when you start thinking about it more and more, how the writers over at Bioware didn't have a real plan for this.

[dreamgazer]

Propaganda.

Why would the Reapers reveal their actual fleet strength?

That's not just propaganda, but an indication that they actually do have vast numbers, which makes sense given they've had billions of years---45k+ of which presumes that they sit around doing nothing---to increase their fleet. Of course he's not being literal with his comment, nor with his indication that they're the pinnacle of evolution, but the Reapers' numbers are daunting, advanced and impenetrable enough to have succeeded for countless cycles.

[dreamgazer]

The only reason why ME3 played out the way it did was because the reapers were made stupid

Eh, their "stupidity" kept losses, resource usage, and collateral damage to a relative minimum until the Crucible ended the threat.

[dreamgazer]

It was just a bad idea to make the Reapers as powerful as they were. I mean it was really cool and interesting at the time, but once you start getting down to the point where the heroes have to actually confront these things, there's not a lot of wiggle room there. The proper way to do it is to establish a way throughout your story for the good guys to gain the power to confront the bad guys. That's where Mass Effect 2 was suppose to come in. Istead the writers went on a complete tangent, and when ME3 came out they had written themselves into a corner.
 
It's actually quite amazing when you start thinking about it more and more, how the writers over at Bioware didn't have a real plan for this.

That I agree with, and it's largely the doing of Karpyshyn dumping Sovereign's speech on the setting and rebooting/fast-forwarding the universe with ME2.

[themikefest]

Eh, their "stupidity" kept losses, resource usage, and collateral damage to a relative minimum until the Crucible ended the threat.

All thanks to the prothean scientists and if the crucible was used. Otherwise this cycle would be harvested

[AlanC9]

It was just a bad idea to make the Reapers as powerful as they were. I mean it was really cool and interesting at the time, but once you start getting down to the point where the heroes have to actually confront these things, there's not a lot of wiggle room there. The proper way to do it is to establish a way throughout your story for the good guys to gain the power to confront the bad guys. That's where Mass Effect 2 was suppose to come in. Istead the writers went on a complete tangent, and when ME3 came out they had written themselves into a corner.
 
It's actually quite amazing when you start thinking about it more and more, how the writers over at Bioware didn't have a real plan for this.

I wouldn't state the problem quite that way. There's no reason to think that the writers believed the italed in the first place. It's only a "corner" if you weren't always planning to go there.

[RoboticWater]

It was just a bad idea to make the Reapers as powerful as they were. I mean it was really cool and interesting at the time, but once you start getting down to the point where the heroes have to actually confront these things, there's not a lot of wiggle room there. The proper way to do it is to establish a way throughout your story for the good guys to gain the power to confront the bad guys. That's where Mass Effect 2 was suppose to come in. Istead the writers went on a complete tangent, and when ME3 came out they had written themselves into a corner.

 

It's actually quite amazing when you start thinking about it more and more, how the writers over at Bioware didn't have a real plan for this.

The Reapers will always be "the most powerful thing," that's their job as the villain. Even if ME2 gave us a magic bullet to defeat the Reapers instead of ME3, it obviously can't work immediately. Having ME2 provide some sort of power to defeat the Reapers doesn't fix the problem that is the Crucible, it just makes it's presence less abrupt. Any solution given to us at the beginning of ME3 should fail, because otherwise there is no tension to the conflict with the Reapers. If it's already a solved problem, then why even care?

 

Even if the writers had written themselves into a corner, they did nothing to get themselves out of it. Rather than spending the main plot of ME3 delving into the Reapers (and having us find a solution that way), they spent most of the time shoving Cerberus in our faces. 

 

The point of the Reapers is their mystery and their immense power, and that should have been the focus of ME3. Deflating that mystery giving us a perfect solution at the beginning doesn't help at all. Rather, BioWare should have explored the unknowns about the Reapers and than had the player emerge from those depths with a solution just in the nick of time.

[Iakus]

I wouldn't state the problem quite that way. There's no reason to think that the writers believed the italed in the first place. It's only a "corner" if you weren't always planning to go there.

If the protagonist has no means to confront the antagonist, be it with the power or the knowledge needed to challenge them, then where is the resolution?

[AlanC9]

If the protagonist has no means to confront the antagonist, be it with the power or the knowledge needed to challenge them, then where is the resolution?

Yeah, but we got that anyway with the Crucible. I thought we were specifically talking about something more akin to a conventional victory, since the immense power of the Reapers is supposed to be the problem with getting there.

[Sylvius the Mad]

That's not just propaganda, but an indication that they actually do have vast numbers, which makes sense given they've had billions of years---45k+ of which presumes that they sit around doing nothing---to increase their fleet. Of course he's not being literal with his comment, nor with his indication that they're the pinnacle of evolution, but the Reapers' numbers are daunting, advanced and impenetrable enough to have succeeded for countless cycles.

If they had the numbers Sovereign claimed, that means they deployed a pitifully small portion of their total strength in ME3. Why? That's a terrible way to go to war.

If you're able, you meet your enemy with overwhelming force and nothing less.

[AlanC9]

Any solution given to us at the beginning of ME3 should fail, because otherwise there is no tension to the conflict with the Reapers. If it's already a solved problem, then why even care?
 

Hmm... was defeating Sauron a "solved problem"? If not, what's the distinction?

[dreamgazer]

If they had the numbers Sovereign claimed, that means they deployed a pitifully small portion of their total strength in ME3. Why? That's a terrible way to go to war.
If you're able, you meet your enemy with overwhelming force and nothing less.

Not if you want to minimize damage and preserve the status quo within a galaxy that now knows the Reapers have arrived. Weaken morale too far and you'll leave people with little choice outside of global suicide or moronic endeavors like blowing up relays to shut proverbial doors (or, even worse, destroying the Citadel and doing maker-knows-what to the network). The way the Reapers conducted the invasion not only almost worked, but also kept most everything in a state similar to that following every other extermination.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Not if you want to minimize damage and preserve the status quo within a galaxy that now knows the Reapers have arrived. Weaken morale too far and you'll leave people with little choice outside of global suicide or moronic endeavors like blowing up relays to shut proverbial doors (or, even worse, destroying the Citadel and doing maker-knows-what to the network). The way the Reapers conducted the invasion not only almost worked, but also kept most everything in a state similar to that following every other extermination.

But they didn't say "our numbers can darken the sky of every world." They said "our numbers will darken the sky of every world." But when they came, they didn't bring enough Reapers to do that.

It was blatant falsehood.

[dreamgazer]

But they didn't say "our numbers can darken the sky of every world." They said "our numbers will darken the sky of every world." But when they came, they didn't bring enough Reapers to do that.
It was blatant falsehood.

The statement, an exaggeration laced with empirical truth, was stated under the assumption that Saren's roundabout backdoor plan would succeed and business would commence as usual. It didn't.

[RoboticWater]

Hmm... was defeating Sauron a "solved problem"? If not, what's the distinction?

Mind you, these stories are different, so it's hard to perfectly compare the two. However, I'll do my best.

 

LoTR's plot made it quite evident from the very beginning that the end goal was "throw ring in lava," and that there were't many questions behind Sauron's intent. You also don't get the impression that Sauron is mortal at all (and therefore can only be killed by some magical macguffin), whereas Sovereign's defeat calls for some explanation later on. LoTR isn't about Sauron. It is about evil and yes, Sauron is the epitome of evil, but the story never requires more insight into his character than a quick flashback. There's not implied mystery, no ulterior agenda. The Reapers however, require something more.

 

The tension and mystery in LoTR comes from the fact that our protagonist is in a completely alien land and facing ever-increasing challenges. ME3 needs to pull from elsewhere because you're fighting on the home turf. Then, of course, the ring actively fights the protagonists' goals. There's a thematic tension to the ring that the Crucible lacks; simply carrying the ring is a fight between good and evil. So as I said, ME2 could have provided a magic bullet so long as its use is an active conflict within the third game.

[themikefest]

But they didn't say "our numbers can darken the sky of every world." They said "our numbers will darken the sky of every world." But when they came, they didn't bring enough Reapers to do that.

It was blatant falsehood.

Do the reapers have to darken the sky?

 

If I have 300 capital ships plus destroyers, processing ships and troop transport ships, I'm sure they would harvest the galaxy fairly easily. They enter the sol system. Shutoff the relay cutting off any reinforcements for the organics. Destroy the military in the sol system. Do the same thing for each system then go back and harvest each system without interference.

[MrFob]

But they didn't say "our numbers can darken the sky of every world." They said "our numbers will darken the sky of every world." But when they came, they didn't bring enough Reapers to do that.

It was blatant falsehood.

 

I don't know, I think they made a pretty good start with earth's sky.

 

I guess if we wouldn't have fired the crucible, all the other worlds of the advanced races would eventually have looked the same, so I wouldn't call that a falsehood.

[wolfhowwl]

Maybe Sovereign was just saying that to frighten Shepard...

[AlanC9]

Not if you want to minimize damage and preserve the status quo within a galaxy that now knows the Reapers have arrived. Weaken morale too far and you'll leave people with little choice outside of global suicide or moronic endeavors like blowing up relays to shut proverbial doors (or, even worse, destroying the Citadel and doing maker-knows-what to the network). The way the Reapers conducted the invasion not only almost worked, but also kept most everything in a state similar to that following every other extermination.

Sort of like the Soviet concept of "reflexive control." You fight in a way that keeps the enemy doing what you prefer him to do. For instance, you throw in just enough troops to keep the battle in the streets of Stalingrad going, because you don't want the Germans to break off the attack before you're ready to counterattack their flanks. (As for whether that's what actually happened there... hard to tell with the Soviets, since they used to lie to themselves so often, never mind us.)

[AlanC9]

Do the reapers have to darken the sky?
 
If I have 300 capital ships plus destroyers, processing ships and troop transport ships, I'm sure they would harvest the galaxy fairly easily. They enter the sol system. Shutoff the relay cutting off any reinforcements for the organics. Destroy the military in the sol system. Do the same thing for each system then go back and harvest each system without interference.

I'll agree with this. I think it's implicit that the Reapers aren't taking the war seriously as a war. They're not fighting like they're worried about defeat being possible. Nor should they, since they should know the score as well as Hackett does.

[Guitar-Hero]

Propaganda.

Why would the Reapers reveal their actual fleet strength?

Arrogance, if all you have is one result then its to assume that it will happen again and chalk it up to being "fate" or some crap like that.