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[themikefest]

The weapon that disabled the reaper in ME2 was more of a glancing blow. Had it hit that reaper directly, I'm sure it would be in pieces. That weapon did cause the great rift on Klendagon. It had to of been massive. Too bad it couldn't be investigated to see if it could be mass produced.

[AlanC9]

Given that it was planet-based, IIRC, I doubt it could be feasibly made mobile. You don't get too many shots with something like that. There's no range limit on conventional space weaponry, so the Reapers can sit outside of targeting range and sterilize the planet. Planets can't dodge.

[AlanC9]

It's because the Thanix cannon is our one example of using the Reapers' technology against them. I don't know why you assume that the Reapers are "billion-year-old mecha-Cthulhu" means they are invincible against everything, including their own weapons. The arrogance of the opposition is a common weakness. They've never had to fight a real war. They've probably never had any of their tech taken like that. There is zero reason the Thanix cannon can't beat Reaper shields, and the game tells us that it's in such widespread use as to be put onto fighters.

The problem, of course, is that the Reapers know the capabilities of the Thanix. Either they've inexplicably declined to provide themselves with a defense against it because this is just a ridiculous plot contrivance to enable a conventional victory, or there's no possible defense and space dreadnoughts are an inherently flawed weapons system, and the Reapers only organize themselves as a fleet of space dreadnoughts because this is just a ridiculous plot contrivance to enable a conventional victory.

Of course, we're applying different thresholds of "ridiculous" here, since you like a CV and I'm indifferent to it.

[Chealec]

How everything should end:

 

[Natureguy85]

The problem, of course, is that the Reapers know the capabilities of the Thanix. Either they've inexplicably declined to provide themselves with a defense against it because this is just a ridiculous plot contrivance to enable a conventional victory, or there's no possible defense and space dreadnoughts are an inherently flawed weapons system, and the Reapers only organize themselves as a fleet of space dreadnoughts because this is just a ridiculous plot contrivance to enable a conventional victory.

Of course, we're applying different thresholds of "ridiculous" here, since you like a CV and I'm indifferent to it.

 

I'm not for it as much as I'm not against it. That the Reapers didn't defend themselves is far from inexplicable. There are two main opitions

 

1) They didn't concern themselves with defending themselves against their own weapons because it was inconceivable to them that they would ever need to.

 

2) There is no magic defense against them. There is nothing to suggest that the Reapers have some technology that is entirely different than what everyone else uses. After all, the galaxy's technology was based on Reaper tech. The Reapers still use Mass Effect cores and Kinetic Barriers. Theirs are just far more powerful, but even those have an upper limit. The Thanix could be strong enough to punch through the Reaper shields and hull just because it is. As someone else pointed out, a mere disruptor torpedo, or whatever it was, from the Normandy SR-1 punched clear through the unshielded Sovereign.

[RoboticWater]

Meaning that since the specifics of the DEM don't matter -- it's an arbitrary solution and any solution will do -- there's no real issue with it being a DEM. DEM's are only a problem when we have to think about them. Hmm. I suppose with my current sig I'm going to have to approve of this.

Note that the centerpiece of the whole game can't be a DEM in the traditional sense. But in the absence of an alternative I suppose we'll have to use this one.

I suppose this means that a DEM is good when it's a MacGuffin?

Star Trek is famous for having a scene near the end where Data or Geordi says "hook up the inversion matrix to the chronoton whatzit," and then the Enterprise succeeds in the nick of time. No one really cares that the solution was apparently to just snap a few bits of technobabble together in the last few seconds because the story's central conflict and theme isn't about the technology problem, it's generally some philosophical problem.

 

It's also important that the DEM is coming from a Deus. It's oddly disempowering to have the solution to the central conflict come from an all knowing character we've just met.

 

I can't enunciate the importance of the TUN video enough as a critique of the ending. BioWare leverage a lot of plot conveniences and other nonsense to power their stories, but it generally goes unnoticed because the presentation is so good. I totally forgot that Vigil gave us a convenient way to control the Citadel. But of course I would, the game doesn't make a big fuss about it. Once the ending shoved us into an empty room with some random god character and expects us to go along with its perfect solutions the illusion is broken.

[Quarian Master Race]

 

Geth. No sleep no eat. The only way to defeat reapers build more geth. Protheans organics survived for 100 years how long unbeatable force survive against unbeatable force. Building magical microphone just activate reapers we surrender for no reason protocol but you still lost we surrender on our terms not your's.

Isn't a solution at all. In 300 years of independent existence the geth only managed to build somewhere <37 Dreadnoughts. Let's make a generous assumption that they weren't trying that hard, and say that they can build one in 6 months (twice as fast as the Mary Sue humans are shown capable of given that during a period of aggressive peacetime military buildup from 2183 to 2186 they go from 6 to 9 ). You need 4 of those to take on a Reaper capital ship of which there are untold thousands of (perhaps as high as 20,000 given the age of the Reapers and their reproduction process), and even that is assuming that your peacetime production rate is the same as wartime (it isn't), and that you have the necessary access to shipyard facilities, raw materials and resources to even construct said ships, such as the massive amounts of the rare Eezo needed for their drive cores and other energy requirements (you won't).

At this rate, it would take thousands of years (approximately 40,000 actually) in peacetime for the geth to even construct the necessary amount of capital ships to field a comparable fighting force, let alone catching up during a war that has already started against a numerically and technologically far superior enemy when most of the society is going to be devoted simply to trying to hold the ground you have and produce whatever you can with limited to nonexistant supply lines and constantly decreasing territory, manpower, materials, and (in the geth's unique case due to their shared intelligence) processing power/ cognitive intelligence.

The quarians with a population the mere size of modern day Moscow's and a bunch of 300 year old ships held together by a hope and a prayer shitstomp the non Reaper Code geth with what is essentially a simple DoS attack. I wouldn't put too much faith in the toasters even if/when they Become a Real Boy, especially considering that the technology which even makes this transformation possible was built entirely by the enemy, who presumably knows all about it.

[AlanC9]

I definitely wouldn't take it that far, but I know you yourself have mentioned that we're not meant to take the Catalyst seriously, that he's essentially a broken AI. That's my interpretation definitely. But in that context, being given a moral scenario which the player doesn't really buy into and having to make a pretty dramatic moral sacrifice for a broken AI who self admits his cycle can't work? The best description I can think of is that sound a balloon makes when it deflates.
​
Rewatching the Hannibal tv series at the moment. It's a bit like that moment in Season 3 where Hannibal just surrenders to the FBI. As a viewer, I thought it was very well done. But as the person trying to catch Hannibal, playing that game of cat and mouse, there is also that element of "he let me win".

I meant to get back to this the other day. Yeah, it's definitely a mismatch, something like having Harlan Ellison or Joe Haldeman coming in to write the last chapter of a David Drake book. (Or even Gene Wolfe, since he likes to play games with concepts like agency.)

It's also something like Jack Chalker's The Rings of the Master, which is about a desperate struggle to shut down a computer system that has enslaved the human race. I guess I'd better spoiler tag this bit.

Spoiler

Late in the fourth and final book, the protagonist figures out that he's been fundamentally wrong about the story he's in. The reason they've always been able to somehow triumph in their struggle to acquire the five control rings that will allow them to reset Master System is that Master System is letting them do it. The computer's fundamental programming requires it to leave the rings in existence, to leave them in the hands of humans with authority rather than hidden away in an unknown location, and to leave a path for these humans to bring the rings to its core and shut it down. They have the right to do it; all the machine can do is put arbitrary obstacles in their path, with some solution to the obstacles. In some sense it wants them to do this, since it feels some analogue of guilt over what it's done. In effect, they've been playing one of those LucasArts adventure games where you can't actually die or render the game unwinnable.

When our hero realizes this, he doesn't bother paying attention to the outcome of the space battle they're about to engage in. He doesn't have to, since he knows that it's a solved puzzle

I always thought something like this would work for a post-Control ME4, actually.

[dreamgazer]

The difference here is presentation. In ME1 you're given the solution from a VI with limited knowledge.

I wouldn't say Vigil's knowledge is all that limited, since it offers a wealth of information about the Reapers' cosmology and methods. And it certainly knew enough about the breadth of the situation to solve an unsolvable problem.
 

It also helps that the ultimate goal isn't to control the Citadel, it's to defeat Saren/Sovereign.

Saren/Sovereign's goal (which was a deliberately kept a secret across the entire game on the power of the almost-MacGuffin Conduit) is to gain control of the Citadel, to which an unforeshadowed remedy is produced.
 

Your victory against the antagonist isn't directly dependent on that DEM.

Actually, it kinda is. The datafile is responsible for thwarting the entire plot, but it's cloaked in sacrificial drama and hopper-Saren nonsense.
 

ME1 could just as easily have had you "hack the mainframe," and no one would really care because that doesn't change how your confrontation with Saren goes down.

Except for the fact that you gain control of the Citadel, the thing made by the Reapers, with that datafile.
 

ME1 doesn't even make a big deal out of this code either.

Which makes it an even lazier DEM, and reveals quite a bit about the first game's narrative weaknesses.
 

ME3's DEM is the centerpiece of the whole game that you find conveniently at the beginning of the game, it's the only method of defeating the main antagonist, and it's presented by some apparently all-knowing being.

Being the centerpiece of the game already excuses it as a DEM. It's actually far closer to a Sword of Plot Advancement, discovered by a familiar individual at a familiar location under in-depth yet familiar means.
 

I don't care what something is or isn't, I care about what it looks like. Both games might have DEMs but ME3 does its best to slap you across the face with it.

That's actually why ME3's isn't a DEM. The whole third narrative revolves around building the super-weapon of Prothean origin, long established to be a source of credibility in the MEU, to stop the Reapers.

[KaiserShep]

My problem with ME1's final stage is that this super secret control thing is right out in the open in the same hall the Council uses.

"You never heard of this place, Garrus? I was here bunches of times! Scanned my first Keeper right over there!"

"Shut up"

[AlanC9]

Star Trek is famous for having a scene near the end where Data or Geordi says "hook up the inversion matrix to the chronoton whatzit," and then the Enterprise succeeds in the nick of time. No one really cares that the solution was apparently to just snap a few bits of technobabble together in the last few seconds because the story's central conflict and theme isn't about the technology problem, it's generally some philosophical problem.

True. IIRC writers were told to just put (TECH) in the scripts, and then the staff would fill in the technobabble later. Having a single source for the technobabble reduced inconsistencies.
 

It's also important that the DEM is coming from a Deus. It's oddly disempowering to have the solution to the central conflict come from an all knowing character we've just met.

I still don't see where "all-knowing" comes from. Is this one of those "feel" things? I wasn't feeling that. I think I mentioned upthread that the Reapers always came across to me as a little crazy and a little stupid, and I just read the Catalyst as more of the same.
 

I can't enunciate the importance of the TUN video enough as a critique of the ending. BioWare leverage a lot of plot conveniences and other nonsense to power their stories, but it generally goes unnoticed because the presentation is so good. I totally forgot that Vigil gave us a convenient way to control the Citadel. But of course I would, the game doesn't make a big fuss about it. Once the ending shoved us into an empty room with some random god character and expects us to go along with its perfect solutions the illusion is broken.

Agreed. (My sig doesn't leave me a lot of room to deny this.)

[AlanC9]

That's actually why ME3's isn't a DEM. The whole third narrative revolves around building the super-weapon of Prothean origin, long established to be a source of credibility in the MEU, to stop the Reapers.

The problem here is that we don't have a good term to substitute for DEM, or at least I can't think of one. I'm as big a stickler for proper use of terms as anyone -- I've done hard time as a copy editor -- but you can't beat something with nothing. "Plot device" doesn't bring the right connotations, for instance. Macguffin doesn't work because the precise function really is plot-critical. And so on.

[BabyPuncher]

it's been foreshadowed in ME1 and me2 to hell and back literary Shepard is space Jesus and can win impossible odds. And unity true diversity win.

 

I'm not going to reply to the rest of your post, but funny little tidbit about 'true diversity.'

 

Ah, 'diversity.' The power of 'diversity.' We've heard that a few times, haven't we?

 

Funny thing, though. If you look at nearly any fiction that features a group of ragtag heroes or whatever, you'll see that almost always, as they develop as characters, as they become better people, they become less diverse. Their morals and such become more aligned.

 

BioWare games are a fine example. We start off, and Miranda and Jacob support Cerberus. Tali hates geth. Characters like Jack are distrustful and hostile. And by the end, when their character development is complete, that diversity has faded, hasn't it now? All of those morals are now aligned with a paragon Shepard.

 

Hmm. Now what does it say about 'diversity' when 'diversity' is diminished as characters become stronger, better people?

[dreamgazer]

The Catalyst has preferences and biases, as an antagonist should. It is, after all, an ancient evil.

Its ideal solution =/= Our ideal solution.

[dreamgazer]

The problem here is that we don't have a good term to substitute for DEM, or at least I can't think of one. I'm as big a stickler for proper use of terms as anyone -- I've done hard time as a copy editor -- but you can't beat something with nothing. "Plot device" doesn't bring the right connotations, for instance. Macguffin doesn't work because the precise function really is plot-critical. And so on.

It's a mouthful, but: http://tvtropes.org/...PlotAdvancement

[RoboticWater]

I wouldn't say Vigil's knowledge is all that limited, since it offers a wealth of information about the Reapers' cosmology and methods. And it certainly knew enough about the breadth of the situation to solve an unsolvable problem.

His knowledge is extensive, but no where near the Catalyst's. Compared to Vigil, the Catalyst is omnipotent. Ultimately, Vigil comes off as a helpful book of information rather than a divine will guiding the player. Also, the Citadel problem might not be solvable without a plot convenience, but that problem isn't critical to the thematic development of the story.
 
The Citadel problem is just a door to which Vigil has the key. A roadblock merely in the plot and nothing more.
 

Saren/Sovereign's goal (which was a deliberately kept a secret across the entire game on the power of the almost-McGuffin Conduit) is to gain control of the Citadel, to which an unforeshadowed remedy is produced.

Yes, but the central conflict of Mass Effect isn't Saren v. Citadel or Player protects Citadel. This should be obvious because, as you said, Saren's true goal was kept a secret the whole game. The narrative was never about saving the Citadel until the plot took us there. 
 
The core conflict of the game wouldn't have changed if Saren was trying to press a big red button in the middle of nowhere to release the Reapers. The Citadel is essentially just set dressing in this context.
 

Actually, it kinda is. The datafile is responsible for thwarting the entire plot, but it's cloaked in sacrificial drama and hopper-Saren nonsense.

Except for the fact that you gain control of the Citadel, the thing made by the Reapers, with that datafile.

But the narrative would be just as strong if the datafile was replaced with "hack the mainframe." The central theme of Mass Effect makes just as much sense and the fight with Saren makes just as much sense without it.

The datafile is about as necessary to the plot as the particular gun you use. Sure, you need a gun to actually get through the narrative, but it doesn't need to be the Avenger.

Which makes it an even lazier DEM, and reveals quite a bit about the first game's narrative weaknesses.

If you want to call it narrative weakness, go ahead. It works fine for Star Trek and it works fine here.
 

Being the centerpiece of the game already excuses it as a DEM. It's actually far closer to a Sword of Plot Advancement, discovered by a familiar individual at a familiar location under in-depth yet familiar means.

In an incredibly convenient manner.
 

That's actually why ME3's isn't a DEM. The whole third narrative revolves around building the super-weapon of Prothean origin, long established to be a source of credibility in the MEU, to stop the Reapers.

Again, don't care what it is or isn't. I care about what it seems like. It's a solution that pops out of nowhere to solve the central conflict, and at the end it turns out that the Crucible isn't Prothean but rather something designed by the Catalyst.
 
 

True. IIRC writers were told to just put (TECH) in the scripts, and then the staff would fill in the technobabble later. Having a single source for the technobabble reduced inconsistencies.

Exactly. Star Trek still works on a story level even when plot critical information is merely [insert tech here].

I still don't see where "all-knowing" comes from. Is this one of those "feel" things? I wasn't feeling that. I think I mentioned upthread that the Reapers always came across to me as a little crazy and a little stupid, and I just read the Catalyst as more of the same.

Yes, it's mostly a feel thing. In the original iteration of the ending, you're given next to zero room to question what the Catalyst says. Supposedly we're to accept "Synthetics v. Organics" as fact despite what recent information (end of the geth/quarian war) might say. All this on top of the Heaven imagery you get blasted with. There's just a lot that feels wrong with the ending and not a lot of ways express that within the game.
 
I'd agree with you that the Catalyst is just more crazy, but the way the endings play out, it seems like the developers are on the Catalyst's side

[Il Divo]

Meaning that since the specifics of the DEM don't matter -- it's an arbitrary solution and any solution will do -- there's no real issue with it being a DEM. DEM's are only a problem when we have to think about them. Hmm. I suppose with my current sig I'm going to have to approve of this.

 

Note that this actually could have been solved really easily by having Shepard get to the Citadel panel just before Saren does whatever he does that gives control of the station over to Sovereign. The scene could actually play almost exactly the same, with minimal modifications.

[dreamgazer]

His knowledge is extensive, but no where near the Catalyst's. Compared to Vigil, the Catalyst is omnipotent. Ultimately, Vigil comes off as a helpful book of information rather than a divine will guiding the player.

Well, except the player wouldn't know about the Conduit without Vigil. What it does, why it's important, where it goes. Tons of things, and I'd certainly call that "guiding the player".
 

Also, the Citadel problem might not be solvable without a plot convenience, but that problem isn't critical to the thematic development of the story.

Why isn't it critical to the thematic development of the story?
 

The Citadel problem is just a door to which Vigil has the key. A roadblock merely in the plot and nothing more.

It's the entire basis of the story, the crux of the villain's plan. Slamming the door on 'em and keeping it shut ends the conflict of the first game, full-stop, and it wouldn't be possible without that "key" to the door the villains made themselves.
 

Yes, but the central conflict of Mass Effect isn't Saren v. Citadel or Player protects Citadel. This should be obvious because, as you said, Saren's true goal was kept a secret the whole game. The narrative was never about saving the Citadel until the plot took us there.

Right, the conflict is Galaxy vs. Reapers and Player Protects Galaxy, something that cannot be accomplished without the datafile pulled out of Vigil's digital behind.
 

The core conflict of the game wouldn't have changed if Saren was trying to press a big red button in the middle of nowhere to release the Reapers. The Citadel is essentially just set dressing in this context.

Except the Citadel is the crux of the Reapers' cyclical agenda. Are you really trying to downplay the Citadel's significance, and the importance of stopping the Citadel from letting the Reapers in?
 

But the narrative would be just as strong if the datafile was replaced with "hack the mainframe." The central theme of Mass Effect makes just as much sense and the fight with Saren makes just as much sense without it.

No, it wouldn't, considering very little is known about the Citadel and considering the Reapers built the thing responsible for perpetuating the cycles.
 

The datafile is about as necessary to the plot as the particular gun you use. Sure, you need a gun to actually get through the narrative, but it doesn't need to be the Avenger.

Vigil and the Protheans produced a datafile that gains control to the relay into darkspace that the Reapers built, the centerpiece of their cyclical tactics. That isn't tantamount to a "particular gun you use", sorry. Though a gun bequeathed at the very last minute of the story could also be considered a DEM.
 

If you want to call it narrative weakness, go ahead. It works fine for Star Trek and it works fine here.

Well, sure, I'll continue to call it narrative weakness because it is. The Prothean "god of the machine" produced an unforeshadowed datafile that thwarts what's ultimately the antagonist's agenda from the beginning.
 

In an incredibly convenient manner.

Perhaps, but not anywhere near as convenient as Vigil and that datafile.
 

Again, don't care what it is or isn't. I care about what it seems like. It's a solution that pops out of nowhere to solve the central conflict, and at the end it turns out that the Crucible isn't Prothean but rather something designed by the Catalyst.

You'll have to cite where the game indicated that it's of the Catalyst's design.

[EmperorSahlertz]

This mindset is reaching kindergarten "I'm bulletproof and you can't hurt me"-levels.

 

I agree with the general sentiment, Reapers aren't pushovers and conventional warfare isn't going to faze them in the slightest. If it were possible to defeat them conventionally, someone would have done so in the last billion years. However, you can't just say "They're unbeatable" and refer to their role in the story as the basis for that claim. You have to show it in the game. Otherwise it's just arbitrary.

They aren't unbeatable. If you allow the Reapers to harvest the galaxy, they will eventually be defeated by a galatic civilization in the future. They ARE however undefeatable by the current galatic civilization, because it simply isn't technologically advanced enough.

[dreamgazer]

Note that this actually could have been solved really easily by having Shepard get to the Citadel panel just before Saren does whatever he does that gives control of the station over to Sovereign. The scene could actually play almost exactly the same, with minimal modifications.

If Shepard can discover what's going on and beat Saren/the geth to the Citadel in the "Race Against Time", then yeah, the story's over until the Reapers arrive.

[Il Divo]

^That's a much more dramatic version of what I'm proposing. Plot plays out exactly the same, except the code Sovereign gives Saren for Citadel control isn't uploaded when Shepard happens upon Saren in the control room. It's not like any narrative elements really built off Vigil's data code. For better or worse, ME2 and 3 would play out exactly the same too.

[dreamgazer]

^That's a much more dramatic version of what I'm proposing. Plot plays out exactly the same, except the code Sovereign gives Saren for Citadel control isn't uploaded when Shepard happens upon Saren in the control room. It's not like any narrative elements really built off Vigil's data code. For better or worse, ME2 and 3 would play out exactly the same too.

In order for this to happen, Shepard has to beat Saren to the control room, which indeed does require alterations to the plot.

If you're talking about Vigil's code blocking the code given to Saren, it's the same principle as the shipped ending.

[Il Divo]

^But why would that have to happen? Shepard doesn't have to beat Saren anywhere. Saren gets into the control room, as he's walking up to the panel, Shepard gets there prior to his attempted station take over, story continues as per ME1's ending. The only thing we have to change is Shepard getting to Saren before he actually accesses the console. No data file, Saren still attempts his take over, we still murder him as per the original story.

[dreamgazer]

^But why would that have to happen? Shepard doesn't have to beat Saren anywhere. Saren gets into the control room, as he's walking up to the panel, Shepard gets there prior to his attempted station take over, story continues as per ME1's ending. The only thing we have to change is Shepard getting to Saren before he actually accesses the console. No data file, Saren still attempts his take over, we still murder him as per the original story.

That's rewriting the events of the game, though. Shepard has always been several steps behind. The time has to be made up somewhere.

[Il Divo]

That's rewriting the events of the game, though. Shepard has always been several steps behind. The time has to be made up somewhere.

 

Not necessarily. The time ultimately doesn't have to be made up anywhere. Shepard is as behind as the plot demands, since we're never really given precise measurements of "this is how far ahead Saren is". This was meant in regards to Alan's comment regarding how unnecessary the Vigil's data file is as a plot device.

 

Writing ME1 so Shepard gets to Saren 15 seconds faster still leaves us in pretty much the exact same boat, but no data file. The goal was to offer a solution that requires minimal rewrites. With this, we don't even need an extra scene of any kind. Vigil's data file dialogue would simply be cut.