1106 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

Not necessarily. The time ultimately doesn't have to be made up anywhere. Shepard is as behind as the plot demands, since we're never really given precise measurements of "this is how far ahead Saren is". This was meant in regards to Alan's comment regarding how unnecessary the Vigil's data file is as a plot device.

It is, though. Saren's ahead of Shepard, always was. Saren has an objective that can't be stopped otherwise, as described by Vigil. Shepard either needs an answer to what happens after Saren does that thing, or some way to speed ahead of Saren.

Writing ME1 so Shepard gets to Saren 15 seconds faster still leaves us in pretty much the exact same boat, but no data file. The goal was to offer a solution that requires minimal rewrites. With this, we don't even need an extra scene of any kind. Vigil's data file dialogue would simply be cut.

Are you forgetting about all the geth forces scattered around the Citadel that are slowing Shepard down?

The situation relies on that datafile undoing Saren's damage a whole lot more than that.

[Il Divo]

It is, though. Saren's ahead of Shepard, always was. Saren has an objective that can't be stopped otherwise, as described by Vigil. Shepard either needs an answer to what happens after Saren does that thing, or some way to speed ahead of Saren.
 

 

And Saren stil remains ahead of Shepard, only by about 15 seconds instead of 30. I'm not sure why conceptually any of what you're suggesting applies. There was never any answer to Saren letting the Reapers through, even before Vigil. The very concept of the Race against Time and the ME1 plot was "Get to Saren  and kill/capture him before he gets to the Reapers". Vigil's back-up solution is: there isn't one. That still works equally well with these modifications.

 

 

Are you forgetting about all the geth forces scattered around the Citadel that are slowing Shepard down?
The situation relies on that datafile undoing Saren's damage a whole lot more than that.     

 

     ​
Not at all, but I also recall the entire space station worth of C-sec officers and who knows what else which were there slowing Saren down. We see dead bodies all over the place, for one.  Again, the plot is as magic as the writers want to make it. If "Shepard gets there 30 seconds behind Saren" is acceptable as a plot device (and it doesn't have to be), I can't see why "Shepard gets there 15 seconds behind Saren" would damage the story, to the point where magic data files are necessary.  

[Il Divo]

Slight amendment: we'd also have to cut a 10 second clip which shows Saren accessing the control panel.

[dreamgazer]

And Saren stil remains ahead of Shepard, only by about 15 seconds instead of 30. I'm not sure why conceptually any of what you're suggesting applies. There was never any answer to Saren letting the Reapers through, even before Vigil. The very concept of the Race against Time and the ME1 plot was "Get to Saren and kill/capture him before he gets to the Reapers". Vigil's back-up solution is: there isn't one. That still works equally well with these modifications.

Wait, what? The datafile usurping the Reapers' control is the back-up solution.
​

Not at all, but I also recall the entire space station worth of C-sec officers and who knows what else which were there slowing Saren down.

Who had a legion of geth to do the dirty work. Shepard's got two people.

Again, the plot is as magic as the writers want to make it.

Sure, but things still need answers.

If "Shepard gets there 30 seconds behind Saren" is acceptable as a plot device (and it doesn't have to be), I can't see why "Shepard gets there 15 seconds behind Saren" would damage the story, to the point where magic data files are necessary.

Where is this 15 second difference coming from? Saren gets there much sooner than that.

Sorry, but you're going to have to rewrite Vigil and the entire final rush without this datafile.

[dreamgazer]

Slight amendment: we'd also have to cut a 10 second clip which shows Saren accessing the control panel.

The scene that confirms Saren got there sooner than you're indicating? Like I said, the whole ending needs to be restructured without the datafile, and you're entering major head-scratcher territory without it and with your time-table of events.

[Il Divo]

Wait, what? The datafile usurping the Reapers' control is the back-up solution.​

 

 

Your statement was that Shepard needs something in response to Saren handing the station over to Sovereign.

 

My counter-response is essentially: no, he doesn't. The solution to the problem is the same as before: get to Saren before he gets control of the station to Sovereign. This is handled by having Shepard reach the Control Room just before Saren uploads the codes. Instead of telling Shepard "upload these codes", he instead tells Shepard something to the effect of "get your butt moving".

 

 

Who had a legion of geth to do the dirty work. Shepard's got two people.

 

 

And the Citadel was composed of an entire space station composed of C-sec, national governments, corporate security, and potentially Spectres. As I said, it's whatever the plot needs it to be. It wouldn't strike me as the most contrived scenario possible to suggest that Saren could be slowed down by any number of factors in trying to reach the Control Panel. We even get some hint of this in the form of Saren shooting down a couple drones before getting to the panel at the tail end of his hostile takeover.
 

 

Sure, but things still need answers.

 

 

Like I said, the answer is right in front of us: stop Saren from up-loading those codes.

 

 

Sorry, but you're going to have to rewrite Vigil and the entire final rush without this datafile.   

 

       

....that's kinda been my point: write Vigil without the data file. I said that very clearly on the last page. The only alterations you would even need to make would involve deleting any references to the data file and having his last line be something to the effect of stop Saren from uploading those codes. Voila, DEM gone.

[Il Divo]

The scene that confirms Saren got there sooner than you're indicating? Like I said, the whole ending needs to be restructured without the datafile, and you're entering major head-scratcher territory without it and with your time-table of events.

 

If "restructured" means "minimal modifications" by all means. Likewise with removing Vigil's data file dialogue, that itself is fixed rather easily by putting that right before Shepard gets to Saren and even works pretty well in the context of Saren meeting resistance on his way to the panel.

 

I've hinted at this, but ​you're making out this "ending restructure" to be much more difficult than it would need to be in the context of ME1.
 

[dreamgazer]

If "restructured" means "minimal modifications" by all means. Likewise with removing Vigil's data file dialogue, that itself is fixed rather easily by putting that right before Shepard gets to Saren and even works pretty well in the context of Saren meeting resistance on his way to the panel.

We're still well behind Saren leading up to Vigil. You're giving Shepard time and speed that s/he hasn't earned.

Nope, I mean restructured, considering this alternate time-table of events. The datafile gives the narrative the breathing room it requires.

[Il Divo]

We're still well behind Saren leading up to Vigil. You're giving Shepard time and speed that s/he hasn't earned.

Nope, I mean restructured, considering this alternate time-table of events. The datafile gives the narrative the breathing room it requires.

 

But what does this mean? "Giving Shepard time and speed he hasn't earned"? ​What exactly qualifies Shepard as earning his time and speed? He's not handed victory on a silver platter and still has to work like hell to reach this point. It seems like this criticism is lacking a bit in substance.

 

If we really want to give this the full treatment, which is kinda going beyond the scope now - this was largely meant in the context of minimal rewrites, there is very little that makes sense about Shepard's ability either to follow Saren's leads at all or to stay so close on his tail. Saren has: infinitely superior resources, a Reaper guiding him, access to a full on army, prior knowledge in terms of objective and planning how he will accomplish his goals, etc. If we're really going to get into giving Shepard time/speed he hasn't earned, that's a much bigger deal than him getting to Saren, just barely after him, especially if the narrative has the ability to offer a scenario to do so.  

 

 

Regarding the second bit: I'm not sure what breathing room does the narrative either require or need? As the climax, it's intended as a high intensity/high stakes scenario. And Shepard still has the ability to carry out the rest of his conversation with Vigil while Saren is stranded behind that magic door (slight pet peeve of mine).

[dreamgazer]

But what does this mean? "Giving Shepard time and speed he hasn't earned"? ​What exactly qualifies Shepard as earning his time and speed? He's not handed victory on a silver platter and still has to work like hell to reach this point. This strikes me as something of an empty criticism.

Not hard enough to be "15 seconds" behind Saren to magically show up and stop him while he's keystroking. That's within visual distance, and Shepard's halted by numerous battles (including a substantial boss-ish one).
 

If we really want to give this the full treatment, which is kinda going beyond the scope now - this was largely meant in the context of minimal rewrites, there is very little that makes sense about Shepard's ability either to follow Saren's leads at all or to stay so close on his tail. Saren has: infinitely superior resources, a Reaper guiding him, access to a full on army, prior knowledge in terms of objective and planning how he will accomplish his goals, etc. If we're really going to get into giving Shepard time/speed he hasn't earned, that's a much bigger deal than him getting to Saren, just barely after him.
 
Regarding the second bit: I'm not sure what breathing room does the narrative either require or need? As the climax, it's intended as a high intensity/high stakes scenario. And Shepard still has the ability to carry out the rest of his conversation with Vigil while Saren is stranded behind that magic door (slight pet peeve of mine).

Once you start relying on the datafile to solve the unsolvable problem, as it's required to do, you're able to work with a relative grasp on time. The scenes could very well be taking (a bit) longer than they appear to on camera, hence the "breathing room", which alleviates some of the pressure from the issues you mention about Saren's capabilities. But it's okay since this file can undo the damage that's been done. When you start working with a fifteen-second-behind gap in time to keep Saren from doing it in the first place, especially when Shepard's been lagging behind the entire time and struggling with opposition, every event has to be precise and scrutinized or this last-minute interruption based entirely on hope is going to look overwhelmingly manufactured. Like, Looney Tunes or Scooby Doo-level "STOP RIGHT THERE!" when Shepard shows up.

Shepard needs a way to cut time from Ilos to the Citadel's control panel, or s/he needs that datafile.

[Il Divo]

 

Not hard enough to be "15 seconds" behind Saren to magically show up and stop him while he's keystroking. That's within visual distance, and Shepard's halted by numerous battles (including a substantial boss-ish one).​

 

 

Once you start relying on the datafile to solve the unsolvable problem, as it's required to do, you're able to work with a relative grasp on time. The scenes could very well be taking (a bit) longer than they appear to on camera, hence the "breathing room", which alleviates some of the pressure from the issues you mention about Saren's capabilities. But it's okay since this file can undo the damage that's been done. When you start working with a fifteen-second-behind gap in time to keep Saren from doing it in the first place, especially when Shepard's been lagging behind the entire time and struggling with opposition, every event has to be precise and scrutinized or this last-minute interruption based entirely on hope is going to look overwhelmingly manufactured. Like, Looney Tunes or Scooby Doo-level "STOP RIGHT THERE!" when Shepard shows up.       

 

   

I'd argue it's about as "contrived" as say our typical Bond or action flick. Note that in the context of Mass Effect, it might be implausible for Shepard to arrive just after Saren, but it wouldn't be considered impossible or outside the realm of action movie logic, which Mass Effect fits pretty well into.

 

To make an analogy, this is a bit like suggesting that you consider it more believable for your friend to have a secret base under their house capable of taking over the U.S. government than it would be believable for you to run into your friend on the subway. Or if we really want to stick with the Looney Tune analogy, I would take "Stop right there"! as per Scooby Doo over Bugs Bunny pulling out a canon and launching Elmer Fudd into the moon, which would be a fairly accurate description of Vigil's data file, by your admission a DEM as I recall.

 

In essence, I think this criticism would work better in a context where ME1 doesn't supply us with a million contrivances related to Saren's ability to stay just "one step ahead of us", despite all his advantages (in the correct context) meaning that we shouldn't have a shot in hell at stopping him altogether.

[dreamgazer]

I'd argue it's about as "contrived" as say our typical Bond or action flick. Note that in the context of Mass Effect, it might be implausible for Shepard to arrive just after Saren, but it wouldn't be considered impossible or outside the realm of action movie logic, which Mass Effect fits pretty well into.

Sorry, but I'd say it's about as contrived as a below-average Bond or action flick, since the visual information and narrative structure are constantly working against that kind of payoff.
 

To make an analogy, this is a bit like suggesting that you consider it more believable for your friend to have a secret base under their house capable of taking over the U.S. government than it would be believable for you to run into your friend on the subway. Or if we really want to stick with the Looney Tune analogy, I would take "Stop right there"! as per Scooby Doo over Bugs Bunny pulling out a canon and launching Elmer Fudd into the moon, which would be a fairly accurate description of Vigil's data file, by your admission a DEM as I recall.

I hope you don't take offense if I don't tackle the analogies, because I really don't see the relevance or accuracy behind them.

But yes, Vigil's datafile is still a DEM, and a crucial one.
 

In essence, I think this criticism would work better in a context where ME1 doesn't supply us with a million contrivances related to Saren's ability to stay just "one step ahead of us", despite all his advantages (in the correct context) meaning that we shouldn't have a shot in hell at stopping him altogether.

The narrative cut it close enough to stopping him after the fact. It wouldn't have made it through this kind of Just In Time, not with how the story structured Saren frequently being a notable distance ahead of Shepard, having to hit many of the same stops (let alone the fact that you can dick around all over the place with side-missions), and visibly having a long head start on Ilos and onto the Citadel.

[AlanC9]

So this is just a particular case of the contrivance that flows through the entire trilogy, right?

[Il Divo]

Sorry, but I'd say it's about as contrived as a below-average Bond or action flick, since the visual information and narrative structure are constantly working against that kind of payoff.

 

 

Bearing in mind that this is the same Mass Effect 1 that had Shepard arrive "just in time" to save Ashley,  and Tali, to reach Saren as he goes for the Eden Prime beacon, to reach the Geth on both Feros and Noveria as they're enacting their plans, to reach Benezia just as she's getting the information she needs from the Rachni Queen, and to reach Ilos just as Saren's beginning his final assault despite our Citadel arrest, I'd say we've been playing that below average Bond movie pretty consistently up to this point.

 

I hope you don't take offense if I don't tackle the analogies, because I really don't see the relevance or accuracy behind them.
But yes, Vigil's datafile is still a DEM, and a crucial one.​

 

 

You decided to break out the Looney Tune analogy. If we're calling coincidental encounters Looney Tune stories, I would hope we could recognize the Vigil data file is about as Looney Tune as it gets in terms of plot events. Improbable events generally trump impossible events on the believability scale.

 

 

The narrative cut it close enough to stopping him after the fact. It wouldn't have made it through this kind of Just In Time, not with how the story structured Saren frequently being a notable distance ahead of Shepard, having to hit many of the same stops (let alone the fact that you can dick around all over the place with side-missions), and visibly having a long head start on Ilos and onto the Citadel.          

 

 

As I said above, this would be more convincing had Bioware themselves showed any kind of the concern that you do for the time table on events in ME1. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case here; time tables tend to be down there with the ME1 codex in terms of their priority list. They instead gave us the version where Shepard's "pace" behind Saren is whatever the story needs it to be, regardless of how insane it is in practice.  

 

But this modification, which would remove an unnecessary DEM with minimal rewrites, would apparently destroy the integrity of the "race against time" narrative, that didn't exist for the first 95% of ME1. As I said, if we want to talk about ME1 in the proper story context, while Shepard's on Feros, Saren's probably reached the Conduit and we all die. If we're really concerned with Saren maintaining his believable lead, his being 10 minutes or so ahead of Shepard getting to the Control Panel really doesn't cut it, in any context.  

[BabyPuncher]

It seems to me with have some people with a not-very-good understanding of how and why 'chance' works in story.

 

Pretty much every big story has unbelievably unlikely events occurring were the same situation to arise in real life.

 

If your train of thought is "This wouldn't be very likely to happen...bad writing!!!," then you're not doing very well.

[Terca]

It should end.

 

Aside from that?

 

I don't really understand the sort of stuff people talk about with endings in general, the sort of 'but I didn't want that!' stuff which makes me cringe. So long as the game ends and I had a good ride I don't care. Across all the games I have played and the thousands of hours I have dropped into them endings make up a small fraction of it, so I will never be too hung up on how it all came to a close.

 

MGSV Spoiler-y comment below

 

Spoiler

 

To be fair I was quite disappointed with the ending of MGSV but at the end of the day it didn't make me hate the game as a whole, just made me bitter.

 

That's like the only time I've ever been 'disappointed' enough in a game's ending for it to sour the experience, but the game was still good.

 

 

Actually come to think of it in a game I played recently all the options in the world only lead up to a single choice. The only one that ever mattered. And I felt satisfied in the end. Unhappy, bitter, sad, but satisfied. And that's not a bad thing. So ME6, come as it may, will not be made or broken for me by the end. I just want my ride to be a good one.

[dreamgazer]

Well, given that this is the same Mass Effect 1 that had Shepard arrive "just in time" to save Ashley, and Tali, to reach Saren as he goes for the Eden Prime beacon, to reach the Geth on both Feros and Noveria as they're enacting their plans, to reach Benezia just as she's getting the information she needs from the Rachni Queen, and to reach Ilos just as Saren's beginning his final assault despite our Citadel arrest, I'd say we've been playing that below average Bond movie pretty consistently.

So, why not lump another on top of it all? One that actively works against the information provided about Saren's lead?

As is often the case, this restructured ending weakens the narrative by replacing its necessary DEM with subpar logic.

You decided to break out the Looney Tune analogy. I would hope we could recognize the Vigil data file is about as Looney Tune as it gets in terms of plot events. Improbable events generally trump impossible events on the believability scale.

Eh, I introduced a simple comparison in tone and intent of the scene with my comment, not delve into erroneous analogies.

Though, I find it interesting that you'd label the datafile "impossible" and the fifteen-second interruption "improbable". I'd flip those. The Protheans demonstrate some understanding of relay tech, making a datafile improbable; the visualized events on Ilos and the Citadel make a keystroke interruption impossible.

As I said above, this would be more convincing had Bioware showed any kind of the concern that you do for the time table on events in ME1. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case here. They instead gave us the version where Shepard's "pace" behind Saren is whatever the story needs it to be, regardless of how insane it actually plays out.

Regardless, the pace was always: "Too far behind". We can make it as complicated as we want, but that's the simple core of it.

But this modification, which would remove an unnecessary DEM with minimal rewrites, would apparently destroy the integrity of the "race against time" narrative, that somehow didn't exist for the first 95% of ME1. Like I said, you want to talk about ME1 in the proper story context, while Shepard's on Feros, Saren's probably reached the Conduit and we all die. If we're really concerned with Saren maintaining his believable lead, his being 10 minutes or so ahead of Shepard getting to the Conduit really doesn't cut it.

Which, again, are concerns that the time bought by the datafile alleviates, likely the reason Drew Karpyshyn went that route instead. Could've been ten minutes, could've been hours. No matter what, it was after the fact.

Introducing the element of "STOP RIGHT THERE!" when Saren's always been a good distance ahead would, indeed, destroy at least some of the narrative's integrity, making it necessary based on the structure that came before it.

[wolfhowwl]

Look at Drakengard and have a rhythm battle.

 

 

(Drakengard 3 final boss pictured)

[Il Divo]

So, why not lump another on top of it all? One that actively works against the information provided about Saren's lead?

 

 

Saren's lead, from any feasible stand point, is that he's so far ahead of us that we should be dead before the story even takes off.

 

You can keep continue on about my sub-par story-telling. But at the end of the day, stories have been relying on the "chance encounter" for ages. If you want something different, you're going to have to look elsewhere than Mass Effect. Mass Effect, as written, is nowhere near consistent enough in its use of the Shepard-Saren cat and mouse game to effectively argue that this modification would ruin the race against time.

 

As is often the case, this restructured ending weakens the narrative by replacing its necessary DEM with subpar logic.​

 

 

See above. Improbable events vs. impossible events. One type tends to get more scrutiny than the other. At the end of the day: coincidences can happen.  

 

 

Though, I find it interesting that you'd label the datafile "impossible" and the fifteen-second interruption "improbable". I'd flip those. The Protheans demonstrate some understanding of relay tech, making a datafile improbable; the viualized events on Ilos and the Citadel make a keystroke interruption impossible.

 

 

Note in this context, we find out about the relay at about the same moment as the data file, as I recall. So you could say what's actually happening over the course of ME1 is: the Protheans invented the relays and tech, then they didn't when we found out about the Reapers, but then they did again when we find out they made a mini weak relay/data file. Putting that aside, it was your own statement if I remember right describing the datafile as a bigger DEM than the ME3 Crucible. That's not really to be regarded as a good thing. Even if that was someone else's statement, your admitted description of it being a DEM does not really have any positive implications for Vigil's data file.

 

Note too that you're ignoring aspects of my rewrite. My rewrite was designed to account for the temporal distortion via Saren encountering resistance along the way to reach the control panel, given that he's attacking the center of galactic civilization, regardless of his Geth army.
 

 

Regardless, the pace was always: "Too far behind". We can make it as complicated as we want, but that's the simple core of it.

 

 

But that doesn't save the argument. You just described my rewrite as "subpar logic", keep in mind. Fine, let's call it that. But I can't imagine what that means for ME1 as written. The entire race against time as written is so utterly ridiculous in its conception that trying to make out any sense of where Shepard "should be" in relation to Saren is basically an exercise in futility.
 

 

Introducing the elements of "STOP RIGHT THERE!" when Saren's always been a good distance ahead would, indeed, break the narrative, making it necessary based on the structure that came before it.          

 

 

And hence why I referenced your looney tune criticism. Putting aside that billions of stories have relied on temporal contrivances in their telling, conceding to the use of DEM doesn't put the version of ME1 we got on any positive footing.

 

Which, again, are concerns the time bought by the datafile alleviates, likely the reason Drew Karpyshyn went that route instead. Could've been ten minutes, could've been hours. No matter what, it was after the fact.

 

 

What does the data file alleviate? Once the Reapers are through, we're dead. The data file doesn't negate that or the concept of a race against time. Even the idea of Saren's takeover taking hours while Vigil's data packet gives Citadel control in minutes is pretty ridiculous. The plot point that you are currently defending does not require an extra few minutes to make plausible, more like days/weeks/months, in the context of the resources that Bioware gave Saren.

[Dantriges]

Probably no one would have missed the segment with the datafile if Vigil didn´t mention it. Most likely it only cut out another instance of the hacking minigame or slap 200 omnigel on the console and be done with it. The console doesn´t seem to need more technical expertise than Shep or whoever does the hacking already has. Would someone really wondered if the console was just ready to use, Shep went to the console, pushed the button for deactivate relay sequence or cut Reaper WLAN and then continued to open the arms?

 

How Shepard could have made up the remaining minutes? Saren entered the tunnel to the conduit by foot, you had a Mako. Ah well perhaps they rode a Colussus or so, but they aren´t really sprinters. Ok, it´s faster than walking but they are really slow compared to the Mako and aren´t made to carry troops which would slow the down more. Haven´t seen a regular car somewhere close to the Ilos conduit, so seems he (colossus) walked. He had to find out how to activate the conduit, which should have taken some time. Then he and his forces had to overpower whatever resistance was there on the other side. Saren probably didn´t wreck the council chambers just for the lulz. Perhaps even Saren had to walk outside like you did, would explain why the geth set up shop there.

 

Anyways, considering the first two points, walking to the conduit and getting the thing to run, it´s more surprising that you didn´t catch him there than the scenario that you stop him right when he wants to access the console.

[dreamgazer]

Saren's lead, from any feasible stand point, is that he's so far ahead of us that we should be dead before the story even takes off.

But that's also not what the game's visuals indicate by showing Saren on Ilos. He's ahead, too far head to interrupt but not far enough ahead to thwart with an alternative. A redirection of the missiles or a displacement of the active bomb is what we're dealing with here.
 
 

You can keep continue on about my sub-par story-telling. But at the end of the day, stories have been relying on the "chance encounter" for ages. If you want something different, you're going to have to look elsewhere than Mass Effect. Mass Effect, as written, is nowhere near consistent enough in its use of the Shepard-Saren cat and mouse game to effectively argue that this modification would ruin the race against time.

Wish I could agree, but the visual information disagrees. We're never "15 seconds behind", not even close.
 

See above. Improbable events vs. impossible events. One type tends to get more scrutiny than the other. At the end of the day: coincidences can happen.

That transcends "coincidence", though. Again, you'll have to gut the entire timetable of events from Ilos to the Citadel control panel to make this work. Saren's lead is responsible for the entire layout of events. That's far from a modification.
 

Note in this context, we find out about the relay at about the same moment as the data file, as I recall. So you could say what's actually happening over the course of ME1 is: the Protheans invented the relays and tech, then they didn't when we found out about the Reapers, but then they did again when we find out they made a mini weak relay/data file. Putting that aside, it was your own statement if I remember right describing the datafile as a bigger DEM than the ME3 Crucible. That's not really to be regarded as a good thing. Even if that was someone else's statement, your admitted description of it being a DEM does not really have any positive implications for Vigil's data file.

Yes, I said that, and it's true. DEMs aren't inherently a bad thing, though, contrary to what the BSN would like folks to objectively think.

I do think, however, that if you're under the mindset of DEMs being an objectively bad element of fiction, then you've got a more objectively bad element in ME1 than ME3.
 

Note too that you're ignoring aspects of my rewrite. My rewrite was designed to account for the temporal distortion via Saren encountering resistance along the way to reach the control panel, given that he's attacking the center of galactic civilization, regardless of his Geth army.

Not really ignoring them so much as equalizing Saren + Geth army taking over the Citadel with Shepard + two guys plowing through all the geth forces and getting to Saren. Again, fifteen seconds is in visual range, and none of the resistance forces to Shepard and laid out in a way that facilitates this minimal rewrite.
 

But that doesn't save the argument. You just described my rewrite as "subpar logic", keep in mind. Fine, let's call it that. But I can't imagine what that means for ME1 as written. The entire race against time as written is so utterly ridiculous in its conception that trying to make out any sense of where Shepard "should be" in relation to Saren is basically an exercise in futility.

Getting Shepard within fifteen seconds of Saren is even more of an exercise in futility.

And hence why I referenced your looney tune criticism. Putting aside that billions of stories have relied on temporal contrivances in their telling, conceding to the use of DEM doesn't put the version of ME1 we got on any positive footing.

Neither does appealing to popularity that billions of stories have relied on temporal contrivances. You're still working against visual information to make that work.
 

What does the data file alleviate? Once the Reapers are through, we're dead. The data file doesn't negate that or the concept of a race against time.

Kinda does, actually. That's what it does: buys plenty of extra time. 
 

Even the idea of Saren's takeover taking hours while Vigil's data packet gives Citadel control in minutes is pretty ridiculous. The plot point that you are currently defending does not require an extra few minutes to make plausible, more like days/weeks/months, in the context of the resources that Bioware gave Saren.

Sorry, I don't find the "it's all ridiculous anyway" counter-argument to work against what we're shown in the game for this situation.

[Il Divo]

But that's also not what the game's visuals indicate by showing Saren on Ilos. He's ahead, too far head to interrupt but not far enough ahead to thwart with an alternative. A redirection of the missiles or a displacement of the active bomb is what we're dealing with here.​

 

 

How did we intuit Saren's lead? Does it look like he has 10 minutes? An hour? How did we precisely determine where Saren should be in relation to Shepard?   

 

Again, you're using your own imagined version of my rewrite. It doesn't work like that. Saying "the visual cues tell us in ME1 Saren is here" doesn't really mean anything; we're altering those visual cues. The visual cues will instead say Saren is ahead, resistance slows him down, much like Vigil's magic door. Simple and easy. Actually, in the context of the Mako landing upon Ilos, Shepard is in fact right behind him. Having just gone back and watched the cut-scene, the as written version is even more ridiculous.
 

 

Wish I could agree, but the visual information disagrees. We're never "15 seconds behind", not even close.

 

 

Agreed, it's more like days/weeks.

 

That transcends "coincidence", though. Again, you'll have to gut the entire timetable of events from Ilos to the Citadel control panel to make this work. Saren's lead is responsible for the entire layout of events. That's far from a modification.

 

 

How does that transcend coincidence? Coincedence is two independent events, against all odds, occurring perfectly in unison. This is not uncommon in stories, despite your insistence on its looney tune qualities.

 

Not to mention, your own insistence regarding this "gutting events". Here's the events we're altering: no data file, moving the cut-scene for Saren to reach the paneI. So yes, I'd that fits pretty well within the realm of coincidence and minimal modifications. Any additional rewrites involve either cutting dialogue or altering the locations of cut-scenes.

 

Edit: Although I will point out, there's even a more straightforward manner of rewriting the Saren encounter that would be even easier, requiring even fewer cut-scene rewrites.

 

Yes, I said that, and it's true. DEMs aren't inherently a bad thing, though, contrary to what the BSN would like folks to objectively think.

 

 

Well, you're probably going up against more than just the BSN in terms of what people regard as bad story-telling, regardless of what tv tropes might insist on. It's  especially weak in this instance since the defense of the DEM is in regards to unnecessary and pointless plot elements. "The visuals say he got there 10 minutes ahead of us.". Okay, fine, let's alter the visuals and cut that problem right out. But then you start referencing the integrity of Shepard being "behind Saren"  for the entire story, at which point the argument kinda goes off the rails just given the direction of ME1.

 

The level of critique you are applying to the last 20 minutes of the game are inconsistent with the level of critique being applied to the rest of the experience.

 

Not really ignoring them so much as equalizing Saren + Geth army taking over the Citadel with Shepard + two guys plowing through all the geth forces and getting to Saren. Again, fifteen seconds is in visual range, and none of the resistance forces to Shepard and laid out in a way that facilitates this minimal rewrite.

 

 

Shepard's not going to be in visual range of his enemy, particularly in the context of his taking an alternate path to even reach the Control Room. The rewrite works perfectly fine within the context of those visuals and the context of Saren encountering resistance trying to get into the control room, Geth army or not. In effect, we see the tail end of this with his shooting down a couple drones before accessing the console.

 

And note that upon landing on Ilos, Shepard is in fact within visual range of Saren, upon landing on Ilos. Actually, he's on foot, of all things too.

 

Getting Shepard within fifteen seconds of Saren is even more of an exercise in futility.

 

 

Okay, except....I'm not the one expressing interest with this train wreck of a time table. The burden of proof is on you, not me, to outline how ME1 retains the integrity of the Race Against Time, to the point where Shepard has to get there at least 10 minutes behind Saren, for you to buy into the story. Given the non-existent defense of ME1's story cues for the first 30 hours, I'm having trouble taking your "exercise in futility" argument seriously in this context. Fix that so we have a reasonable sense of where Shepard is in relation to Saren, then we can start talking about his being 15-30 seconds or whatever behind his enemy. As is though, Shepard getting to Ilos "just in the nick of time" in the first place is pretty amusing, given how much the game sets up our being behind Saren, especially with the Citadel Arrest.

 

 

Neither does appealing to popularity that billions of stories have relied on temporal contrivances. You're still working against visual information to make that work.

 

 

It works a lot better than this half-hearted defense of DEM's. In keeping with all the examples I gave you before, ME1 doesn't seem to care about temporal contrivances. As I said, if that's your concern, you came to the wrong developers. Bioware does many things well, stories that avoid contrivances, especially temporal contrivances, is not one of them.

 

Kinda does, actually. That's what it does: buys plenty of extra time. 

 

 

Let's avoid being pedantic.

 

The data file simply gives us a chance. It is not an "I can take as long as I want" button. That itself poses even more difficulties for your argument to retain the race against time.

 

Sorry, I don't find the "it's all ridiculous anyway" counter-argument to work against what we're shown in the game for this situation.     

 

      

And I don't think you're showing any believable concern for what's shown in game, given the sheer premise of Saren's resources. Once more: if you want to talk about what we're shown in game: we're dead before we leave the Citadel. That should be a much bigger concern for us than Saren getting to the control panel 10 minutes before us vs. 30 seconds. More accurately, this is on par with the ME1 lore fans insisting on how Andromeda is going to ruin the lore, while closing their eyes to about a million different instances which make said lore irrelevant. If 95% of your game doesn't care about temporal contrivances, trying to defend that last 5% (which itself is disputable) generally isn't the best route to go in argumentation.

[MichaelN7]

I find that a lot of players miss something crucial about the endings. My reasons are twofold:

 

 

ONE:

 

That very last part, where the Stargazer and their child are watching the stars, the Stargazer tells their child:
"​Many of the details have been lost to time."

And the child asks:
"Can you tell me another story about the Shepard?"​ (emphasis added)

What this tells us is that the ENTIRE trilogy, all the way from opening scene of ME1 to end of ME3, has been a story told by the Stargazer to their child.

Let me repeat that, with emphasis:

 

THE ENTIRE TRILOGY WAS TOLD AS A BEDTIME STORY TO A CHILD.

 

Oral tradition, by it's nature, is prone to details being lost, especially after so much time. Much like the telephone game, you start with a sentence "the cake is a lie" and by the time it reaches the end of the line, you get "Kevin's gotta fly" or "I should go".

That's just with a dozen people, now think of how it has been EONS since​ Shepard and co. were around; it's not hard at all to see that no one really knows whether Shepard chose Paragon or Renegade, or any of the other choices you make along the way.

 

 

TWO:

 

The Reapers are defeated. Everything they represent is gone.

The death, destruction, the twisted logic of the "Catalyst" is no more.

Wasn't that the whole point of the trilogy, to stop the Reapers?

Whether it's direct (Destroy), subversive (Control), obsolescence (Synthesis), or postponed (Refuse), the Reapers are gone. THEY HAVE BEEN STOPPED. The galaxy is at peace, life has won.

 

 

TWO and a half:

 

It's YOUR Shepard, therefore you can insert your own headcanon and odds are it'll fit.

My Shepard is a full Paragon Vanguard/Sentinel hybrid (I'll explain in a note at the bottom, for those interested) who saved the Council, cured the Genophage, spared/saved the Rachni, Wrex and Eve lead the Krogan, Quarians and Geth made peace, saved everyone he could, kept his entire crew alive (as much as possible) and ultimately chose Synthesis.

 

My headcanon is that Shepard, having tapped into the power of the Citadel/Catalyst, was able to recreate his body (after all, it cures Joker's Vrolik Syndrome, why not a repeat of the Lazarus Project, aka coming back to life?).

Then he brings back the Virmire Survivor, Mordin, Thane, and all his other friends who died in the war.

With all the newfound knowledge held by the Reapers, he brings back the Protheans from their Collecter "shells" and brings back all those other races that were "Reaperfied".

Everyone remembers the mistakes of years past, what with the Asari holding back Prothean artifacts, the Salarians conducting secret experiments, the Krogan trying to fight everybody, and so on. No one wants a repeat of that, so an unprecedented level of cooperation begins to set in, and it endures. Racial boundaries dissolve, and while names are kept for the sake of simplicity, the galaxy is actually, finally, one.

 

It's a new golden age, and with Shepard and crew (all of them, from the whole trilogy, like during the Citadel DLC and the Party at the end) continuing to explore the galaxy, the adventure never really ends.

 

--------

　

To clarify, I'm not bashing anyone who hates the endings, I see their reasoning and it makes sense.

While the Indoctrination Theory would have been absolutely stupendous to have, it's ultimately not necessary, because I don't need to be spoon-fed a cinematic to have my happy ending. There is enough information given so as to form your own conclusions as to what "really" happened, and plenty of room for headcanon to fill in the rest.

 

I gather that a lot of hate for the endings comes from the fear of irrelevance, that your choices don't matter except for the one at the end where it's a four-way sadistic choice.

 

As my Shepard says: "I won't let fear compromise who I am."

 

So instead of being afraid that my choices mean nothing, I instead choose to see it as a means to finalize my happy ending, and all my choices during my journey determine just how happy it's going to be.

As you can see by my Shepard above, it's about as happy as you can get.

 

--------

 

NOTES: By Vanguard/Sentinel hybrid, I like to use Gibbed Save Editor to change my class, I use the headcanon that the Lazarus Project enables Shepard to effectively be any class he chooses, he just has to pick one at a time.  So I go the medbay, save, change class, go back, pick a different bonus power, and keep playing.  Whether I'm "officially" a Vanguard of Sentinel determines who is the Virmire Survivor (If Vanguard, it's Ashley, romanced.  If Sentinel, it's Kaidan, Miranda is romanced)

That's just my way of playing it, since it is MY Shepard.  And since it's my headcanon, I can finally be both and have both Kaidan and Ashley in my squad.

[straykat]

THE ENTIRE TRILOGY WAS TOLD AS A BEDTIME STORY TO A CHILD.

 

 

If that's the case, I kind of pity the kid. Old Gramps is telling bedtime stories where my Shep commited genocide, lit people on fire, and forced a Batarian to drink poison.

[Chealec]

My headcanon is that...

 

Congratulations - you've actually managed to create an ending I hate more than those that are in the game