1106 réponses à ce sujet

[Armass81]

I hope its something they arent just wringing as they go along, some planning ahead guys, please. Speaking of endings, just watched Halo 5's .....

 

Spoiler

Basically Cortana becomes Starchild, with the control ending. Wow...

[AlanC9]

Italy isn't the second strongest military in this context as humans are in ME, so no.

Where'd you get the idea that the humans are the second-strongest?

[Il Divo]

^Probably that we rose through the ranks to become next up for a primary seat on the Council. Though that still leaves about a million questions regarding how 6-7 dreadnoughts made us this vast military power capable of going Galactic Empire on everyone else in the galaxy.

[Fixers0]

The All-human council ending is very understandble and well for the reasons listed below:

 

 

-The loses sustained by the Joint-council fleets during the geth are enormous, there's a reason why Udina said the citadel fleets (plural) were decimated. It was just the Destiny Ascension and some Turian cruisers, but offscreen, while  the Alliance is engaging Sovereign, the remainder of the Citadel fleet is fighting to the last with the geth vessels, They have no alternative as abanonding the fight means certain doom. Thus when the battle is finally over the Geth and citadel fleets have all but annhilated one another. 

 

-From point one, during a conversation on the Citadel it is mentioned that the Destiny Acension equates to almost half of the total fire power of the Asari fleet, hence it's destruction means, the effective reduction of Asari fleet strenght by almost 50%.

 

- Although the Citadel races still have fleets that could theoreticely outgun the Alliance, they are to far spread throughout Citadel space to pose any meaningfull threat to the Alliance who has nearly all their fleets at the Citadel and is in a position to dictate terms of reconsturction and reforms.

 

-Lastly and most important, through the Citadel Humanity controls the Mass Relay-network allowing them to activate and de-activate them at their leasure. meaning they could effectively trap entire fleets in remote systems. Blackmailing other races in exchange for relay acces is indeed the Alliance's biggest weapon, They could demand a full demilitarization of the turian hierarchy, or force the Salarians to reveal all their secret techonolgy or else they will forever be stuck. 

 

 

So, as you see the All human council scenario makes perfectly sense when put in the right context. I do agree however that it would not be very workable for the direction Bioware wanted the games to take. Hence saving or sacrificing the council is of little consequence in the Mass Effect 3. 

[Il Divo]

Not really. More than anything else, this demonstrates the weak nature of plot as constructed.

 

1) The Asari, Turians, and Salarians don't have massive fleets ? Once more, collectively between them, they have a total of 74 dreadnoughts available, not counting the Destiny Ascenscion. The humans have....6. Are we really supposed to believe that all those forces were present during the attack, that no forces were left guarding home planets (which is pretty much expected), and that we sustained absolutely no losses in that context?

 

2) See the insanity of deciding to close off the relays in the face of what the Reapers are coming to do. Playing power politics in the face of galactic destruction is a pretty bad move altogether, as per the Salarians in ME3.

 

There's even more points, but that's to start.

[AlanC9]

Note that according to the Codex, the turians not only didn't lose any dreadnoughts at the Citadel, they built a couple more between ME1 and ME2. And the salarians broke even at 16.

[Il Divo]

Note that according to the Codex, the turians not only didn't lose any dreadnoughts at the Citadel, they built a couple more between ME1 and ME2. And the salarians broke even at 16.

 

Exactly.

And just to add more fuel to the fire, assuming the humans really want to be stand-offish,

 

1) They are now responsible for holding the entire Citadel alone, including any potential insurrection which could result in the fleets being allowed through the relays.

 

2) The headache of actually needing the other races to combat the Reapers. Which means re-arming them, even if you (somehow) took their fleets away. And weapons/arms (eventually) means rebellion. Which is pretty much the opposite approach to take if you're trying to achieve systematic domination.

 

There's really no way this plot point works, from any reasonable stand point.

[AlanC9]

-From point one, during a conversation on the Citadel it is mentioned that the Destiny Acension equates to almost half of the total fire power of the Asari fleet, hence it's destruction means, the effective reduction of Asari fleet strenght by almost 50%.

So the DA had firepower equal to 20 dreadnoughts and half the smaller vessels in the asari fleet? Well, being an ME fan means having to put up with this kind of idiocy. But the asari still have the 20 dreadnoughts.

-Lastly and most important, through the Citadel Humanity controls the Mass Relay-network allowing them to activate and de-activate them at their leasure. meaning they could effectively trap entire fleets in remote systems. Blackmailing other races in exchange for relay acces is indeed the Alliance's biggest weapon, They could demand a full demilitarization of the turian hierarchy, or force the Salarians to reveal all their secret techonolgy or else they will forever be stuck.

Even if this could work, this is assuming what you're trying to prove. It's the Alliance seizure of control of the Citadel that's stupid. Saying that control of the Citadel could be maintained once the Alliance had control is ducking the question.

Akso, if the Alliance could do that, why couldn't they do it against the Reapers?

[Natureguy85]

As I said above, this would be more convincing had Bioware themselves showed any kind of the concern that you do for the time table on events in ME1. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case here; time tables tend to be down there with the ME1 codex in terms of their priority list. They instead gave us the version where Shepard's "pace" behind Saren is whatever the story needs it to be, regardless of how insane it is in practice.  

 

But this modification, which would remove an unnecessary DEM with minimal rewrites, would apparently destroy the integrity of the "race against time" narrative, that didn't exist for the first 95% of ME1. As I said, if we want to talk about ME1 in the proper story context, while Shepard's on Feros, Saren's probably reached the Conduit and we all die. If we're really concerned with Saren maintaining his believable lead, his being 10 minutes or so ahead of Shepard getting to the Control Panel really doesn't cut it, in any context.  

 

I would argue that ME1 was not "a race against time" until Ilos, specifically after meeting Vigil, but certainly not before Virmire at the earliest. We know Saren is up to something, but we don't really know what. Shepard assumes it's letting in the Reapers to destroy the Galaxy, but we don't know what's involved in that. The plot is really more like a crime drama, where Shepard is the detective following the trail left by the criminal. Shepard has no leads until Saren acts. The idea of "race against time" is also hurt by the ability to do missions in any order as the only one that gives time any concern is Noveria, where you catch Benezia in the act of getting the location of the Mu Relay and sending it to Saren. We don't know that Saren actually needed Liara or if that was for Benezia or simply to deny anyone else a resource. And Saren could have left Feros quite awhile ago.

 

 

It seems to me with have some people with a not-very-good understanding of how and why 'chance' works in story.

 

Pretty much every big story has unbelievably unlikely events occurring were the same situation to arise in real life.

 

If your train of thought is "This wouldn't be very likely to happen...bad writing!!!," then you're not doing very well.

 

Agreed. While some events seem unlikely, sometimes without them, there would be no story in the first place.

 

http://tvtropes.org/...rativeCausality

 

http://tvtropes.org/...hropicPrinciple

 

 

Yes, I said that, and it's true. DEMs aren't inherently a bad thing, though, contrary to what the BSN would like folks to objectively think.

I do think, however, that if you're under the mindset of DEMs being an objectively bad element of fiction, then you've got a more objectively bad element in ME1 than ME3.
Getting Shepard within fifteen seconds of Saren is even more of an exercise in futility.
 

That's what [the data hack] does: buys plenty of extra time. 

 

I don't see the hack as a DEM because of the 3rd requirement of TV tropes definition. Yes, you could be using a different one. Yes, I really like TV Tropes.

 

http://tvtropes.org/...n/DeusExMachina

 

3: The problem a Deus ex Machina fixes must be portrayed as unsolvable or hopeless. If the problem could be solved with a bit of common sense or other type of simple intervention, the solution is not a Deus ex Machina no matter how unexpected it may seem.

 

As another poster said, other explanations for making the control panel open the Citadel arms and the relays were available. I also don't see it as all that unlikely, as Vigil explained that the Protheans knew how to mess with the Citadel's operations.

 

I find that a lot of players miss something crucial about the endings. My reasons are twofold:

 

 

ONE:

 

That very last part, where the Stargazer and their child are watching the stars, the Stargazer tells their child:
"​Many of the details have been lost to time."

And the child asks:
"Can you tell me another story about the Shepard?"​ (emphasis added)

What this tells us is that the ENTIRE trilogy, all the way from opening scene of ME1 to end of ME3, has been a story told by the Stargazer to their child.

Let me repeat that, with emphasis:

 

THE ENTIRE TRILOGY WAS TOLD AS A BEDTIME STORY TO A CHILD.

 

Oral tradition, by it's nature, is prone to details being lost, especially after so much time. Much like the telephone game, you start with a sentence "the cake is a lie" and by the time it reaches the end of the line, you get "Kevin's gotta fly" or "I should go".

That's just with a dozen people, now think of how it has been EONS since​ Shepard and co. were around; it's not hard at all to see that no one really knows whether Shepard chose Paragon or Renegade, or any of the other choices you make along the way.

 

 

TWO:

 

The Reapers are defeated. Everything they represent is gone.

The death, destruction, the twisted logic of the "Catalyst" is no more.

Wasn't that the whole point of the trilogy, to stop the Reapers?

Whether it's direct (Destroy), subversive (Control), obsolescence (Synthesis), or postponed (Refuse), the Reapers are gone. THEY HAVE BEEN STOPPED. The galaxy is at peace, life has won.

 

 

TWO and a half:

 

It's YOUR Shepard, therefore you can insert your own headcanon and odds are it'll fit.

My Shepard is a full Paragon Vanguard/Sentinel hybrid (I'll explain in a note at the bottom, for those interested) who saved the Council, cured the Genophage, spared/saved the Rachni, Wrex and Eve lead the Krogan, Quarians and Geth made peace, saved everyone he could, kept his entire crew alive (as much as possible) and ultimately chose Synthesis.

 

My headcanon is that Shepard, having tapped into the power of the Citadel/Catalyst, was able to recreate his body (after all, it cures Joker's Vrolik Syndrome, why not a repeat of the Lazarus Project, aka coming back to life?).

Then he brings back the Virmire Survivor, Mordin, Thane, and all his other friends who died in the war.

With all the newfound knowledge held by the Reapers, he brings back the Protheans from their Collecter "shells" and brings back all those other races that were "Reaperfied".

Everyone remembers the mistakes of years past, what with the Asari holding back Prothean artifacts, the Salarians conducting secret experiments, the Krogan trying to fight everybody, and so on. No one wants a repeat of that, so an unprecedented level of cooperation begins to set in, and it endures. Racial boundaries dissolve, and while names are kept for the sake of simplicity, the galaxy is actually, finally, one.

 

It's a new golden age, and with Shepard and crew (all of them, from the whole trilogy, like during the Citadel DLC and the Party at the end) continuing to explore the galaxy, the adventure never really ends.

 

--------

　

To clarify, I'm not bashing anyone who hates the endings, I see their reasoning and it makes sense.

While the Indoctrination Theory would have been absolutely stupendous to have, it's ultimately not necessary, because I don't need to be spoon-fed a cinematic to have my happy ending. There is enough information given so as to form your own conclusions as to what "really" happened, and plenty of room for headcanon to fill in the rest.

 

I gather that a lot of hate for the endings comes from the fear of irrelevance, that your choices don't matter except for the one at the end where it's a four-way sadistic choice.

 

As my Shepard says: "I won't let fear compromise who I am."

 

So instead of being afraid that my choices mean nothing, I instead choose to see it as a means to finalize my happy ending, and all my choices during my journey determine just how happy it's going to be.

As you can see by my Shepard above, it's about as happy as you can get.

 

--------

 

NOTES: By Vanguard/Sentinel hybrid, I like to use Gibbed Save Editor to change my class, I use the headcanon that the Lazarus Project enables Shepard to effectively be any class he chooses, he just has to pick one at a time.  So I go the medbay, save, change class, go back, pick a different bonus power, and keep playing.  Whether I'm "officially" a Vanguard of Sentinel determines who is the Virmire Survivor (If Vanguard, it's Ashley, romanced.  If Sentinel, it's Kaidan, Miranda is romanced)

That's just my way of playing it, since it is MY Shepard.  And since it's my headcanon, I can finally be both and have both Kaidan and Ashley in my squad.

 

 

 I don't know who's Shepard this is, but it's not mine.

 

 

 

I like your extension of the "bedtime story" epilogue, but I hate that epilogue, so you're trying to pick good fruit from a rotten tree. The same goes for the Lazarus project. For all the crap we took from morons saying we wanted a happy sunshine ending, your "use Reaper tech to restore everything and everyone" idea is ridiculous.

 

Also, it's not YOUR Shepard as much as you think it is. Shepard is a much more defined character than, say, the Warden.

 

 

I admit that I usually played the Shepard who got everyone working together, ...

 

Well, that was the premise set up by Miranda in the intro, so that made sense as a plot. Yes, it is interesting to have the characters not like each other, but the key was setting that aside to unite for the common goal. So while you could not reconcile Jack and Miranda, you not going to talk to them was more an issue of how they viewed Shepard than how they dealt with each other.

 

 

I never thought this was a very sensible criticism. This approach works fine in television. It's not substantially different from BG2. Even if you think that the ME2 plot structure doesn't work for CRPGs, is it reasonable to expect Bio to have known that in advance?

 

The problem with ME2 wasn't the plot structure or the character stories. The characters are all that made the game any good. The problem was that the plot had nothing to do with the plot from the first game and did nothing to advance the series.

 

 

I prefer ME1s cast by far.  I actually like every member in ME1, ME2 I'm meh to half of the, dislike a bunch and like a couple from the new ones.  I obviously like the original cast in ME2.

 

Well, some of the characters were better written and made more sense to be there than others. Smudboy did a good breakdown.

 

 

 

There are two problems with the dream sequences. First, they ascribe values to Shepard -- or perhaps, to Shepard's subconscious -- that may not match how the player conceives of the character. Bio's free to restrict RP like this, but it's a cost. One that I'm not convinced was worth paying in this instance.

 

Well, as I said above, Shepard is a more defined character than some people like. My problem with the dream sequences is that they really don't tell me anything, nothing comes of them, and, worst of all, they drag on because Shepard is apparently running underwater.

[Natureguy85]

ME3 did however introduce it's own fair share of derp, like the Cerberus Sith empire and the horrendous intro.

 

That's it! TIM found the Star Forge!

 

ME1 had plenty of derp too. The all-human council was preposterous.

 

To actually happen: yes. To come out of the mouth of Udina: no.

[Il Divo]

 

I would argue that ME1 was not "a race against time" until Ilos, specifically after meeting Vigil, but certainly not before Virmire at the earliest. We know Saren is up to something, but we don't really know what. Shepard assumes it's letting in the Reapers to destroy the Galaxy, but we don't know what's involved in that. The plot is really more like a crime drama, where Shepard is the detective following the trail left by the criminal. Shepard has no leads until Saren acts. The idea of "race against time" is also hurt by the ability to do missions in any order as the only one that gives time any concern is Noveria, where you catch Benezia in the act of getting the location of the Mu Relay and sending it to Saren. We don't know that Saren actually needed Liara or if that was for Benezia or simply to deny anyone else a resource. And Saren could have left Feros quite awhile ago.​

 

 

​See, I always thought that most crime dramas involve a race against time. At least, the ones where the detectives typically fear the murderer "killing again". It might not be a hard timer in the sense of "you have five minutes left", but there's that ever present sense of trying to keep up with your enemy's movements to stop whatever it is he's doing. At the risk of side-tracking, Hannibal often does this well.

 

But this also doesn't necessarily neglect the presence of an invisible timer. It's true we don't know the exact nature of Saren's plans. But we, the Alliance, and the Council believe it's nefarious enough that we need to get moving and capture him. This is made more important by the fact that (as Shepard) we are forced to believe in Saren's Reaper myth, which holds that the Reapers are coming to commit galactic genocide, which is huge, and Saren possessing an insane array of resources, which means he has the potential to be so far ahead that nothing short of plot miracles really lets us catch up, especially from an in character perspective.

 

No doubt, the race ramps up in the final moments on Ilos, but to me what that really means is that ME1's race is more of a cross-country run, rather than a track 100 meter dash.

[Natureguy85]

​See, I always thought that most crime dramas involve a race against time. At least, the ones where the detectives typically fear the murderer "killing again". It might not be a hard timer in the sense of "you have five minutes left", but there's that ever present sense of trying to keep up with your enemy's movements to stop whatever it is he's doing. At the risk of side-tracking, Hannibal often does this well.

 

But this also doesn't necessarily neglect the presence of an invisible timer. It's true we don't know the exact nature of Saren's plans. But we, the Alliance, and the Council believe it's nefarious enough that we need to get moving and capture him. This is made more important by the fact that (as Shepard) we are forced to believe in Saren's Reaper myth, which holds that the Reapers are coming to commit galactic genocide, which is huge, and Saren possessing an insane array of resources, which means he has the potential to be so far ahead that nothing short of plot miracles really lets us catch up, especially from an in character perspective.

 

No doubt, the race ramps up in the final moments on Ilos, but to me what that really means is that ME1's race is more of a cross-country run, rather than a track 100 meter dash.

 

Yes, so perhaps I should say that there is a huge difference between "The killer is going to strike again tonight" and "The killer may strike again eventually". Mass Effect is the latter. Or think of it that we have to wait for Saren to act so we have a scene to investigate rather than figuring out what his next move would be and heading him off.

[Ahglock]

Yes, so perhaps I should say that there is a huge difference between "The killer is going to strike again tonight" and "The killer may strike again eventually". Mass Effect is the latter. Or think of it that we have to wait for Saren to act so we have a scene to investigate rather than figuring out what his next move would be and heading him off.

I'm going to agree with you as I used a similar analogy in the somewhat distant past.

[AlanC9]

Yes, so perhaps I should say that there is a huge difference between "The killer is going to strike again tonight" and "The killer may strike again eventually". Mass Effect is the latter. Or think of it that we have to wait for Saren to act so we have a scene to investigate rather than figuring out what his next move would be and heading him off.

The latter is a better match for ME2, isn't it?

Speaking of waiting for Saren to act... who actually sent the message about geth on Noveria? Nobody in Port Hanshan knew anything about them.

[Natureguy85]

The latter is a better match for ME2, isn't it?

Speaking of waiting for Saren to act... who actually sent the message about geth on Noveria? Nobody in Port Hanshan knew anything about them.

 

Well it's a match for Freedom's progress.  But part of the "mystery" is that there is no evidence or trail to investigate. The lack of intel gathering is one of the issues with the plot.

[The Twilight God]

I never thought this was a very sensible criticism. This approach works fine in television. It's not substantially different from BG2. Even if you think that the ME2 plot structure doesn't work for CRPGs, is it reasonable to expect Bio to have known that in advance?

 

I enjoyed ME2 a lot. But the fact remains that it does not forward the overall plot. Yes, it was a great game and as a game I feel the character stories work fine. I have no issue with it as a game. But the Reaper plot was sorely lacking.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by your last statement, but yeah.. I would expect Bioware to know how the plot should unfold in advance. They clearly had no idea what they were going to do other than the fact that they wanted it to be a trilogy. Honestly, this story could not be contained in a trilogy. Just poor planning, or rather, a lack thereof. You take ME1. Then in ME2 nothing is done to prepare for the Reapers at all. In ME3, despite this and with no foreshadowing the magical super weapon just falls into our heroes' laps just when they need it. You gotta admit that's bad. I don't know how head writer guy still has a job. I'd have removed him from that position.

 

 

P.S. To another question to posed to another. Humans became the second strongest only in the renegade ending. Apparently the Destiny Ascension was like half the firepower of the entire Asari fleet weakening their military strength. The Salarians were never really that big militarily either, relying more on intelligence data for surgical strikes/counter-strikes than sheer numbers. In the Renegade ME2 story humans stepped in where the Asari had to bow out.

[Linkenski]

1) ME:A is very unlikely to be a new trilogy

2) I don't care what I want the ending to be. (in the sense that I don't want the ending to be a happy ending just because that's what I wish. If a happy ending would be unfitting, don't make it so.)

3) If the ending is a well-conceived conclusion to the narrative at hand, and the closure is sufficient, then it's a good ending.

[Dantriges]

-From point one, during a conversation on the Citadel it is mentioned that the Destiny Acension equates to almost half of the total fire power of the Asari fleet, hence it's destruction means, the effective reduction of Asari fleet strenght by almost 50%.

Aren´t these just some tourists talking?
 

-Lastly and most important, through the Citadel Humanity controls the Mass Relay-network allowing them to activate and de-activate them at their leasure. meaning they could effectively trap entire fleets in remote systems. Blackmailing other races in exchange for relay acces is indeed the Alliance's biggest weapon, They could demand a full demilitarization of the turian hierarchy, or force the Salarians to reveal all their secret techonolgy or else they will forever be stuck.

 

IIRC the council and their predecessors had no access to that Citadel feature, the Reapers had.

[Stakrin]

If this is another trilogy I would be hype. I could deal.
As for the end, do well enough for a third trilogy.
I want to play ME until I die.

For a good ending for me, a final boss would be a start. Something where you don't bring any squadmates because they are all there. And the controls alter so you can command all of them somewhat. Then you get locked away somehow and ts you versus the main baddie.
It's sort of an old plot line, but fun gameplay.

I prefer final bosses to be the same size as the main character (roughly)

Shepard versus harbinger wouldn't be as cool as Shepars versus enhanced TIM (story wise it would be much better)

[Seraphim24]

Dragon Age Origins had a worse ending than ME3 to be honest... it wasn't as full fledged but as a downer ending someone had to sacrifice themselves or you had to create a demon baby.

 

Plus, all your alliances and everything were reduced to just massed units that you threw around the map like you were playing a giant historical RTS like King Arthur or something, not a word spoken, and all that.

 

NWN:OC had a pretty cool ending by comparison, it seems like the ending thing.... was maybe a bit of a trend?

[Natureguy85]

Dragon Age Origins had a worse ending than ME3 to be honest... it wasn't as full fledged but as a downer ending someone had to sacrifice themselves or you had to create a demon baby.

 

Plus, all your alliances and everything were reduced to just massed units that you threw around the map like you were playing a giant historical RTS like King Arthur or something, not a word spoken, and all that.

 

NWN:OC had a pretty cool ending by comparison, it seems like the ending thing.... was maybe a bit of a trend?

 

You couldn't be more wrong. How does the bittersweet, or downer if you can only focus on the Warden, make the ending bad? The "demon baby" was the price of saving both Wardens and made it a good role-playing choice.

 

More importantly though, Origins wrapped up its own story, answered questions, and gave a proper epilogue. ME3 did none of these things.

 

You are correct that the allies you got had little effect and it really didn't matter if you had one or the other from the quest, but they at least fought by your side. Again, Mass Effect 3 merely shows them in cutscenes or milling around the base.

[Iakus]

Dragon Age Origins had a worse ending than ME3 to be honest... it wasn't as full fledged but as a downer ending someone had to sacrifice themselves or you had to create a demon baby.

 

Plus, all your alliances and everything were reduced to just massed units that you threw around the map like you were playing a giant historical RTS like King Arthur or something, not a word spoken, and all that.

 

NWN:OC had a pretty cool ending by comparison, it seems like the ending thing.... was maybe a bit of a trend?

DAO>ME3. 

 

Heck DAO is  a prime example on how to do "bittersweet" endings right.

[prosthetic soul]

Oh!  An ending thread!  Well...

 

 

Alright, who's up first?  Anyone want to try telling me the ending wasn't complete crap?   Or even....that any alternative would have been too "sunshine and rainbows"?  Go ahead....say when. 

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

I'm just hoping that the protagonist wakes up and we realize that it was all a dream.

...and that would still be better than ME3.

[AlanC9]

DAO>ME3. 
 
Heck DAO is  a prime example on how to do "bittersweet" endings right.

Because the DR is always the right choice?