^Not sure that works as a counter-point here. You don't even really need to make peace between the Geth and the Quarians to demonstrate potential for cooperation. If I let all the Quarians be murdered, Shepard + company are still organics working in tandem with the Geth.
More than anything else, what that demonstrates is that if you mindlessly pursue destruction of your enemy at all costs, they're likely to pull the same move on you. That applies to the Quarians sure, for whom the conflict is a bit personal, but not necessarily for the rest of us.
Problem there is you're working from the framework of the Catalyst is telling the truth. Why should we start with that assumption though? This guy just appeared in the form of a small dead child which the game forces Shepard to repeatedly think about, while self-admitting to be your main adversary. That's not the best starting point for verification. I'm certainly not an IT theorist, but there are grounds there for Shepard to be extremely suspicious of what's going on around him.
Yes, but under what circumstances? About to be wiped out. Everyone's just trying to save their asses, to me that doesn't really have to do with working together as an act of kindness. In fact I think the reason why we could unite the galaxy was just fear of annihilation, and everyone uses it to their advantage. The whole cooperation between everyone is a construct of blackmailing other species into doing certain things.
And sure, the quarians started the war again, however, when we look at how it started, it is as the Catalyst says. The geth rebelled against their creators. They were told to shut down and they didn't, again, because of survival instinct I presume. So we know the story and origin of the geth and quarians as the only example in our cycle, and the Catalyst is right about it.
I'm not necessarily saying people need to trust it, but as it is, most people hate the Catalyst and think it's lying. People dismiss what it tells us rather than staying neutral. They don't need to trust it, but why also mistrust it? We haven't been around. Maybe the Catalyst is telling the truth, maybe not, but again, I just do not get the hate for it. I mean, sure, in the end, it actually doesn't really matter if you trust it or not so it's a moot point anyway. Because as Alan said, you either act or you don't. You can't make it worse anyway, so what's the absolute worst thing that could happen? The civilizations are about to wiped out, and if that's not a reason to try out the Crucible then I don't know what is.
Yes, but under what circumstances? About to be wiped out. Everyone's just trying to save their asses, to me that doesn't really have to do with working together as an act of kindness. In fact I think the reason why we could unite the galaxy was just fear of annihilation, and everyone uses it to their advantage. The whole cooperation between everyone is a construct of blackmailing other species into doing certain things.
And sure, the quarians started the war again, however, when we look at how it started, it is as the Catalyst says. The geth rebelled against their creators. They were told to shut down and they didn't, again, because of survival instinct I presume. So we know the story and origin of the geth and quarians as the only example in our cycle, and the Catalyst is right about it.
To be clear, if that's the route of the explanation, we also have an opposite context. What was the most well-documented source of Organic-Synthetic conflict? The Quarians trying to perform genocide on their creations. That's hardly proof of a general argument that organics-synthetics can never go along. That's more indicative of what happens when you engage in extermination procedures than a general premise of cooperation being impossible.
As it stands, ME doesn't really give us that motive. What ultimately makes the Geth different from any other species? The Catalyst insists that he's seen it happen ad infinitum, but the Catalyst is itself is the information source we're distrustful of, given a number of reasons.
Now, to be fair here, Leviathan/Javik help in that regard, but aside from Bioware's insistence that they are unnecessary/optional, they also cause other issues to crop up for the narrative.
I'm not necessarily saying people need to trust it, but as it is, most people hate the Catalyst and think it's lying. People dismiss what it tells us rather than staying neutral. They don't need to trust it, but why also mistrust it? We haven't been around. Maybe the Catalyst is telling the truth, maybe not, but again, I just do not get the hate for it. I mean, sure, in the end, it actually doesn't really matter if you trust it or not so it's a moot point anyway. Because as Alan said, you either act or you don't. You can't make it worse anyway, so what's the absolute worst thing that could happen? The civilizations are about to wiped out, and if that's not a reason to try out the Crucible then I don't know what is.
Sorry I should clarify my own opinion on this: I don't think there's any reason to not use the Crucible. I just think it stems from a position of absolute, insane desperation than it does from trusting the Catalyst itself.
Trust in the Catalyst though depends on a number of factors. Leviathans for one can confirm his story, so that is a point in his favor. But again, that depends on whether we should need optional story dlc to justify the narrative's ending. That aside, hatred/distrust for the Catalyst stems from our combatting the Reapers for 3 games, recognition of Indoctrination's potential to mess with our minds (Catalyst here takes on the form of the dead child from our nightmares), and in general a controversial/unsupported statement (without Leviathan) regarding organic/synthetic conflict, that can easily go against how the player interprets the narrative arcs of EDI and the Geth (being honest here, ME3 does not really portray the Quarians as innocent in the conflict).
Add on top the Catalyst's own insistence that he recognizes his solution can't work anymore, while still committing himself to destroying the Crucible/organics and advising the player to engage in suicidal acts for all 3 endings, and (at the least) there is more than a little room for doubting the Catalyst.
At least, that's my own take. I always use the Crucible, but not out of any real sense of trust/belief, but because I think I have nothing left to lose.
I'm not necessarily saying people need to trust it, but as it is, most people hate the Catalyst and think it's lying. People dismiss what it tells us rather than staying neutral. They don't need to trust it, but why also mistrust it? We haven't been around. Maybe the Catalyst is telling the truth, maybe not, but again, I just do not get the hate for it. I mean, sure, in the end, it actually doesn't really matter if you trust it or not so it's a moot point anyway. Because as Alan said, you either act or you don't. You can't make it worse anyway, so what's the absolute worst thing that could happen? The civilizations are about to wiped out, and if that's not a reason to try out the Crucible then I don't know what is.
"Hi, I am the catalyst, the thing that commands the Reapers, which turned your homeworld into a wasteland and pretty much every other world you care about. Now I turned this facility, where you spend quite a lot of time in the last three years into a slaughterhouse to make a new Reaper, hope you didn´t stumble over one of my victims when you got here. I am doing this for a billion years now, because some megalomanical squids gave me some very vague orders. But you know what, I did it for a very good reason, to prevent organic life to be wiped out by an artificial intelligence which is inevitable. I have proof for that, which I don´t show you, because we don´t have time because of some reason.* Nevermind that I am the only AI capable of an galactic extinction event and according to my own logic, didn´t do that. Because I am special like you, Shepard. No, never thought about the possibility that my data from a very specific cycle could be viable to this specific cycle alone.** So could you please shoot that tube, touch these electical doohickeys or jump into the beam, because now I see that my solution won´t work anymore, because I let you upstairs or so. No anything not provided by the Crucible, like me realizing right now, that my solution is not viable anymore and simply stopping this now nonsense doesn´t count. We have to do it with the Crucible options, for some reason. And if you don´t take them, I harvest the galaxy anyways. It´s not a solution to my problem but uh well, dunno, fun, nothing better to do?
No, it won´t damage delicate equipment or disrupt Crucible operations like rewriting me or deleting me, it´s really little more than a power source. Yeah ok, the Reapers were a bit condescending, arrogant and thought of you little more than an insect but really I want to help you."
The catalyst tried to manipulate you since its first appearance. For an AI that´s incapable of getting organics, it pulls off the manipulator quite well, his whole blather is a lot of stuff without anything to verify independantly. That thing could be deliberately lying, be riddled with bugs, deluded or blocked with so many hard- or software blocks that it can´t think straight. And well every action you take, looks more like tampering with delicate equipment which does something you don´t know, because of some contrived reason, than actually using the Crucible in a sensible manner. It looks more like shooting your PC, fiddling with its power supply in mid operation or ripping out the graphics card while running and expect it to work as expected. What kind of idiot designed a device which activates by shooting something or touching live and active, open currents or jumping into a pit? I can rather follow the logic of the incomprehensible cuttlefish than the mind of the engineers who came up with that. And it´s not like some kind of cleverly designed trap choice or so, where you missed stuff which could help you understand the situation and that´s what you get. There was never any way (hidden, open, convoluted or associated with costs) to learn more about it. Everyone shrugged and built it.
*aren´t the Reapers attacking the Crucible in the meantime, saw a video but don´t know if it was cut and can´t find it again.
** the catalyst killed any other synthetic life before it became a problem, so this "I´ve seen it every time" is a bit fishy..
Il Divo, Natureguy85, Eryri et 1 autre aiment ceci
Codex Entry: Commander Shepard "The First Human Spectre" is a fictional character and the subject of several interactive films published by Tethras Enterprises. These films were wildly popular due at least in part to the player being able to customize Shepard, from gender to appearance. Shepard could even have romances with several of the colorful cast of characters. The viewer was able to experience the adventures using Shepard as an avatar, making choices for Shepard and customizing the story to suit individual tastes
Over its five year run, numerous adventures where made available for Shepard's fans to experience. Though the central plot involved foiling the "Reapers" a mythological race of sentient AIs the films credited for the extinction of the Protheans.
Shepard's run ended with the so-called "Shepard Incident". The conclusion of the final film was considered so controversial that it caused an unprecedented uproar which even a rereleased ending could not quell.
Currently Tethras Enterprises has no plans to bring back Shepard for other stories. However, they are looking into the licensing Blasto for a new series.
This is one of the funniest responses to my posts I have ever seen!
Well, potentially about everything. At the end, it's obviously smarter to use the Crucible than to not use it, but that's less out of trust/belief in the Catalyst and more out of absolutely desperation.
Wait, we shouldn't trust the genocidal AI with the logic problem and mind control powers?
prosthetic soul, Il Divo, Natureguy85 et 2 autres aiment ceci
So the sane thing to do is to just stand there and wait for the Reapers to win? Put another way, how can listening to the Catalyst make things worse? I don't see a way.
The Catalyst is tricking Shepard into sabotaging the Crucible
BOOM! Made things worse
AlanC9, Il Divo, Natureguy85 et 1 autre aiment ceci
1) I want to know what the plot holes are you're talking about, and also what the EC did that made the original ending "better". They haven't changed any fundamental plot points in the story, they only expanded on it, and quite frankly, what was added could've been thought of by people themselves had they tried.
2) This peace between the geth and the quarians is not exactly a good example imo. You know why the "peace" happens? Because you hold the fleet back by telling the quarians they will be annihilated if they wouldn't. If you let Legion continue to upload the Reaper Code, it would tear the fleet to pieces. So with their backs against the wall the quarians let you blackmail them into stepping back. It's either death or survival. Of course they step back to guarantee their survival. And if you can't broker peace you are the factor that decides over the fate of the geth and the quarians in a similar way, so this is settled via outside source in both cases. I'm sure without Shepard's intervention the geth would've wiped out the quarians. Doesn't matter in this case who started which war. The organics would have been killed by the synthetics, just as the Catalyst has observed who knows how many times.
3) That's the problem that you can't imagine them saving us, and exactly why the Reapers say that organics cannot comprehend. I would advise you to read the Retribution book, Karpyshyn touches on this topic.
Also anyone who still doesn't see the organics vs. synthetics thing... think about who we fight, what they are. Imo ME2's mistake was to focus on the loyalty missions and not on the plot that could've pushed the theme even more into light. Yet it was still there as our main theme the whole time.
Hell, even Drew Karpyshyn spoke about this theme in his blog and I bet many people think Mac and Casey made this theme up the last minute. Sorry, but that's not the case.
This is like if you take stuff that's presented to you in a history lesson and you deny it because "Oh, I wasn't there. I'm sure these guys are lying and this is not what happened because XYZ". If the Catalyst says this is what happened in the far away past, sure, it could be lying, but who are we to judge it? We haven't been there. It can be true after all. But people here don't even want to consider this, because... hey, we didn't see it in this cycle (which is untrue, but oh well) so that thing must be lying and it's non-sensical.
If they were open that this conflict might be a thing and that's why everything happens how it does, how the cycles came to be... then I'm sure we wouldn't have so many raging fans.
1) I will throw in a specific in a moment, but it isn't necessary. The fact that plotholes exist is enough to debunk the idea that writers are infallible. A big one for me is that if the Catalyst lives on the Citadel and the Citadel is part of it, why did it need a Keeper signal or Soverein to open the Citadel relay?
2) The Catalyst's premise is not that Synthetics and Organics fight; it is that Synthetics will always surpass and completely wipe out Organics. Without the Reaper code, the Quarians win. There's also the fact that the Geth did not wipe out the Quarians in the Morning War.
3) The games are primary media. All other media should add flavor and side stories. I should not have to go so secondary media for the primary media to make sense.
Organics vs Synthetics was always there, but as a secondary theme. It was never the primary one. Saren, the primary antagonist of the first game, was Organic. Yes, he was the puppet of the Big Bad, Sovereign. The Collectors, the primary antagonists of the second game, were organic, though highly modified. And in ME3, Cerberus , the primary antagonist, was full of tech infused Organics. Organic v Synthetic was central to the Geth/Quarian conflict, as well as a few side missions, but that's it.
So the sane thing to do is to just stand there and wait for the Reapers to win? Put another way, how can listening to the Catalyst make things worse? I don't see a way.
And even if there's only a tiny chance that he's telling the truth, a tiny chance of victory is better than absolutely certain failure.
That is an argument to push one of the buttons, not an argument for trusting the Catalyst. And that distrust means that you really have no reason to pick one button over the other, unless you decide to pick one the Catalyst doesn't seem to like. One failing of the game is that they tell you that the Reapers can't be defeated in the battle but I don't think they do a good job of showing it. They get Reaper based weapons and high EMS shows Reapers getting destroyed. I don't feel that "absolutely certain failure" was sold well.
If they had focussed on the organics vs synthetics more and isntead of it coming across as a side plot the end plot would have looked a bit better I think. I mean I guess i can call it a plot twist, but it didn't come as a interesting relevation more of a really your motives and plans are that stupid? Still once they used the catalyst plot device the ending was shot for me. Frickin design ME3 from the gorund up without a magic wand to solve your problems. Hell have your defeat inevitable and this is just one more cycle, I don't care. Like make refuse the only option and the crucible is just a trap for you to waste reosurces on. But once your plot revolves around the magic button fixing everything I'm done.
No, it's not a plot twist. It's a plot jump.The Crucible being a trap or Red Herring could have been a cool idea, taking the wind out of the resistance and the player.
Yes, but under what circumstances? About to be wiped out. Everyone's just trying to save their asses, to me that doesn't really have to do with working together as an act of kindness. In fact I think the reason why we could unite the galaxy was just fear of annihilation, and everyone uses it to their advantage. The whole cooperation between everyone is a construct of blackmailing other species into doing certain things.
And sure, the quarians started the war again, however, when we look at how it started, it is as the Catalyst says. The geth rebelled against their creators. They were told to shut down and they didn't, again, because of survival instinct I presume. So we know the story and origin of the geth and quarians as the only example in our cycle, and the Catalyst is right about it.
They don't need to trust [the Catalyst], but why also mistrust it?
That "blackmail" idea is one of the problems I had with the series starting from ME2. That intro talks about Shepard as an icon others will follow, yet Shepard never convinces anyone important of anything important. He/she always has to do a favor before he/she can get help.
No, the Catalyst is wrong. He said the Synthetics will wipe out all organic life. The Geth let the Quarians leave.
Why mistrust it? Because it admits to being in control of your enemy that operates by putting ideas in your head and controlling your brain.
To be clear, if that's the route of the explanation, we also have an opposite context. What was the most well-documented source of Organic-Synthetic conflict? The Quarians trying to perform genocide on their creations. That's hardly proof of a general argument that organics-synthetics can never go along. That's more indicative of what happens when you engage in extermination procedures than a general premise of cooperation being impossible.
Again, the Catalyst's premise is not "that Organics-Synthetics" can never get along. It is that the Synthetics will wipe out Organics. First, the Geth didn't wipe out the Quarians after the Morning War. Second, the Geth only destroy the Quarians with Reaper upgrades. Without either intervention, the Quarians win.
"Hi, I am the catalyst, the thing that commands the Reapers, which turned your homeworld into a wasteland and pretty much every other world you care about. Now I turned this facility, where you spend quite a lot of time in the last three years into a slaughterhouse to make a new Reaper, hope you didn´t stumble over one of my victims when you got here. I am doing this for a billion years now, because some megalomanical squids gave me some very vague orders. But you know what, I did it for a very good reason, to prevent organic life to be wiped out by an artificial intelligence which is inevitable. I have proof for that, which I don´t show you, because we don´t have time because of some reason.* Nevermind that I am the only AI capable of an galactic extinction event and according to my own logic, didn´t do that. Because I am special like you, Shepard. No, never thought about the possibility that my data from a very specific cycle could be viable to this specific cycle alone.** So could you please shoot that tube, touch these electical doohickeys or jump into the beam, because now I see that my solution won´t work anymore, because I let you upstairs or so. No anything not provided by the Crucible, like me realizing right now, that my solution is not viable anymore and simply stopping this now nonsense doesn´t count. We have to do it with the Crucible options, for some reason. And if you don´t take them, I harvest the galaxy anyways. It´s not a solution to my problem but uh well, dunno, fun, nothing better to do?
No, it won´t damage delicate equipment or disrupt Crucible operations like rewriting me or deleting me, it´s really little more than a power source. Yeah ok, the Reapers were a bit condescending, arrogant and thought of you little more than an insect but really I want to help you."
The catalyst tried to manipulate you since its first appearance. For an AI that´s incapable of getting organics, it pulls off the manipulator quite well, his whole blather is a lot of stuff without anything to verify independantly. That thing could be deliberately lying, be riddled with bugs, deluded or blocked with so many hard- or software blocks that it can´t think straight. And well every action you take, looks more like tampering with delicate equipment which does something you don´t know, because of some contrived reason, than actually using the Crucible in a sensible manner. It looks more like shooting your PC, fiddling with its power supply in mid operation or ripping out the graphics card while running and expect it to work as expected. What kind of idiot designed a device which activates by shooting something or touching live and active, open currents or jumping into a pit? I can rather follow the logic of the incomprehensible cuttlefish than the mind of the engineers who came up with that. And it´s not like some kind of cleverly designed trap choice or so, where you missed stuff which could help you understand the situation and that´s what you get. There was never any way (hidden, open, convoluted or associated with costs) to learn more about it. Everyone shrugged and built it.
*aren´t the Reapers attacking the Crucible in the meantime, saw a video but don´t know if it was cut and can´t find it again.
** the catalyst killed any other synthetic life before it became a problem, so this "I´ve seen it every time" is a bit fishy..
Nice summary. On the * point, yes. If you sit there and don't pick, you get a "game over" screen that says the Reapers destroyed the Crucible.
The Catalyst is tricking Shepard into sabotaging the Crucible
BOOM! Made things worse
I'm not an engineer, but I'd imagine most machines aren't improved by having about 200 pounds of dead space marine dumped into their inner workings. Or having another bit shot to bits. Or having some idiot short it out by grabbing two live cables...
And call me pessimistic, but I can imagine that using the Crucible to mess about with the genetics of every, diverse living thing in the galaxy, levo and dextro and all, including recently evolved species with biology that the ancient designers of the Crucible could not possibly have studied, with a device that was cobbled together in 6 months by people who didn't even know it could bloody well do that, and is even now being progressively damaged by the Reapers that Glowjob apparently controls but can't be bothered to right at this moment could, potentially, have WAY worse consequences than doing nothing and letting the cycle continue. Particularly when it will also affect undeveloped species that the Reapers would have left alone for now and could have had another 50,000 years of blissful ignorance of the carnage going on above their heads.
Iakus, Il Divo, Natureguy85 et 1 autre aiment ceci
I'm not an engineer, but I'd imagine most machines aren't improved by having about 200 pounds of dead space marine dumped into their inner workings. Or having another bit shot to bits. Or having some idiot short it out by grabbing two live cables...
And call me pessimistic, but I can imagine that using the Crucible to mess about with the genetics of every, diverse living thing in the galaxy, levo and dextro and all, including recently evolved species with biology that the ancient designers of the Crucible could not possibly have studied, with a device that was cobbled together in 6 months by people who didn't even know it could bloody well do that, and is even now being progressively damaged by the Reapers that Glowjob apparently controls but can't be bothered to right at this moment could, potentially, have WAY worse consequences than doing nothing and letting the cycle continue. Particularly when it will also affect undeveloped species that the Reapers would have left alone for now and could have had another 50,000 years of blissful ignorance of the carnage going on above their heads.
Ooh, you just reminded me of something and I am mad that I didn't think of it earlier when someone else was complaining about questioning the hate toward the Catalyst and not the Crucible because the Crucible gives the options.
No, it doesn't, unelss I am mistaken about something. The final scene is on the Citadel, not the Crucible. You were raised up from the mysterious control room you got to after riding the transport beam. You can see the Crucible "microphone" above you. The final scene takes place on the Citadel. The tube, the electrodes, and the pit for Synthesis are all on the Citadel already. The Crucible "is little more than a power sources." It's just plugging a battery into a device that already exists.
Edit: Changed "complaining about" to "questioning" because of the negative tone and connotation of the former.
Ooh, you just reminded me of something and I am mad that I didn't think of it earlier when someone else was complaining about the hate toward the Catalyst and not the Crucible because the Crucible gives the options.
No, it doesn't, unelss I am mistaken about something. The final scene is on the Citadel, not the Crucible. You were raised up from the mysterious control room you got to after riding the transport beam. You can see the Crucible "microphone" above you. The final scene takes place on the Citadel. The tube, the electrodes, and the pit for Synthesis are all on the Citadel already. The Crucible "is little more than a power sources." It's just plugging a battery into a device that already exists.
Yes, that's something I've always found weird too. The Crucible may be supplying the juice, but it's the Citadel, a piece of technology designed by either the Reapers or the Leviathans, that's actually working the magic. More reason to be wary of it and even more potential nightmare fuel for things that could be worse than the Cycle. In Synthesis, everyone now has nano machines in their brains that was ultimately derived from a race of sea monsters that used technology to amplify and broadcast their mind control across their whole empire. Congratulations, everyone is now immortal, but will spend a hellish eternity supplying tribute to their new, tentacled, masters.
And call me pessimistic, but I can imagine that using the Crucible to mess about with the genetics of every, diverse living thing in the galaxy, levo and dextro and all, including recently evolved species with biology that the ancient designers of the Crucible could not possibly have studied, with a device that was cobbled together in 6 months by people who didn't even know it could bloody well do that, ...
Now I miss not saving the link where I described the upgrade process of the Crucible through the ages and humanity´s recent additions like rewiring the whole thing, replacing the powercore and slapping on something because it could be useful.
Now I miss not saving the link where I described the upgrade process of the Crucible through the ages and humanity´s recent additions like rewiring the whole thing, replacing the powercore and slapping on something because it could be useful.
No, it doesn't, unelss I am mistaken about something. The final scene is on the Citadel, not the Crucible. You were raised up from the mysterious control room you got to after riding the transport beam. You can see the Crucible "microphone" above you. The final scene takes place on the Citadel. The tube, the electrodes, and the pit for Synthesis are all on the Citadel already. The Crucible "is little more than a power sources." It's just plugging a battery into a device that already exists.
The additions to the Citadel are recent though. The "decision chamber" or rather the air bubble in the void of space between Crucible and Citadel is the rear end of the Citadel after all. Somehow I find it unlikely that people missed these weird structures for two millenia. There was a thread with the hypothesis that the necessar structure to make your decision were in the tip of the crucible.
The additions to the Citadel are recent though. The "decision chamber" or rather the air bubble in the void of space between Crucible and Citadel is the rear end of the Citadel after all. Somehow I find it unlikely that people missed these weird structures for two millenia. There was a thread with the hypothesis that the necessar structure to make your decision were in the tip of the crucible.
Well, on the one hand, if you watch the docking cutscene, there is no platform on the Crucible where it ends up above the base of the Citadel Tower. On the other hand, that base is totally flat, lacking structures, but more importantly lacking the hole you jump into for Synthesis.
As my guy Din Korlack says, "pfft, details." But cutscenes often look different from gameplay, I guess.
True that the hole is lacking, IIRC the decision chamber is supposed to be foldet together like an umbrella and form the pin of of the Crucible in flight mode. But yes, something must have done some extensive on the fly modifications of the Citadel when the Crucible docked.
To be clear, if that's the route of the explanation, we also have an opposite context. What was the most well-documented source of Organic-Synthetic conflict? The Quarians trying to perform genocide on their creations. That's hardly proof of a general argument that organics-synthetics can never go along. That's more indicative of what happens when you engage in extermination procedures than a general premise of cooperation being impossible.
As it stands, ME doesn't really give us that motive. What ultimately makes the Geth different from any other species? The Catalyst insists that he's seen it happen ad infinitum, but the Catalyst is itself is the information source we're distrustful of, given a number of reasons.
Now, to be fair here, Leviathan/Javik help in that regard, but aside from Bioware's insistence that they are unnecessary/optional, they also cause other issues to crop up for the narrative.
I agree with you, obviously the quarians are not the innocent party here either. But the thing is that the Catalyst tells us "the created will always rebel against the creators". While I understand that the geth defending themselves is not an act of rebellion, but reacting like any species would, their initial refusal to shut down is what I would consider as rebelling. Then there's EDI, a creation by Cerberus who also ends up opposing them eventually.
I didn't have Leviathan first and I only bought Javik after finishing ME3 as well, so I first saw everything without those additions, and I still didn't find the ending as bad as many think it is. Maybe I saw more behind the Reapers' motives or rather actually "bought" them more than other players did, I don't know. Maybe I just saw the Catalyst wouldn't need a reason to lie. If it wanted it could've just said nothing to me and waited for the Reapers to continue the harvest or if Shepard uses the Crucible by him-/herself. If it wanted to lie to Shepard in order for Shepard to die or anything, what would've been the point if the Reapers can take care of that anyway? Why would what happened in the past with synthetics even matter? It tells us in two instances we'd have to give up our physical form, and it's heavily implied in the third, so I don't really see it actually lying to be of relevance here either.
Btw, I agree of course that story content like Leviathan which explains something in more detail should've originally been in the story, or left out completely. Although of course the AI must have been built by some organics, so we can deduce there was something like that happening.
Sorry I should clarify my own opinion on this: I don't think there's any reason to not use the Crucible. I just think it stems from a position of absolute, insane desperation than it does from trusting the Catalyst itself.
Trust in the Catalyst though depends on a number of factors. Leviathans for one can confirm his story, so that is a point in his favor. But again, that depends on whether we should need optional story dlc to justify the narrative's ending. That aside, hatred/distrust for the Catalyst stems from our combatting the Reapers for 3 games, recognition of Indoctrination's potential to mess with our minds (Catalyst here takes on the form of the dead child from our nightmares), and in general a controversial/unsupported statement (without Leviathan) regarding organic/synthetic conflict, that can easily go against how the player interprets the narrative arcs of EDI and the Geth (being honest here, ME3 does not really portray the Quarians as innocent in the conflict).
Add on top the Catalyst's own insistence that he recognizes his solution can't work anymore, while still committing himself to destroying the Crucible/organics and advising the player to engage in suicidal acts for all 3 endings, and (at the least) there is more than a little room for doubting the Catalyst.
At least, that's my own take. I always use the Crucible, but not out of any real sense of trust/belief, but because I think I have nothing left to lose.
Thank you for these reasons. This is something concrete as to why hate them/the Catalyst, and I can see where you're coming from. I'm not saying by the way that I support the Reapers' methods, oh no, but I do believe the Catalyst wants to achieve a solution where both synthetics and organics can co-exist, like it says with Synthesis, and I guess I could see how it would want it.
Yes, as I mentioned above, quarians are not the innocent party, and I think that is exactly the point players have to make up their mind about, everyone's opinion can differ on this topic, since we all view these kind of things differently. Some might say the geth rebelled first and deserve to be put down when disobeying, others might say the quarians were totally wrong to turn against the geth out of fear and the unknown. Some may consider geth as alive, some will still lable them as empty tin cans (when we go around the ship in ME3 there are lots of debates on this topic with the crew). This in itself is thinking about the synthetic/organic conflict and it prepares you for the end. You take a stance and maybe even a side, or maybe you stay on neutral ground, but that doesn't mean the Catalyst was wrong about what happened in the past. And that's what I'm trying to argue. Achieving peace or a truce for once does not mean the Catalyst talks BS about the past. And who knows, the possibility that this peace might not last is there, isn't it? Having this peace and giving the geth this chance might be just as risky as curing the genophage. We don't know the outcome. And even if there was eternal peace, the Catalyst was programmed with this mandate because both Leviathans and Catalyst were the ones experiencing this in the past until the Catalyst came up with the cycle solution.
Maybe that's the thing. I always thought from the get-go that something is preventing the Catalyst to act, even if the Crucible is "little more than a power source" I thought there must be more happening to... something, dunno, because of the dialogue and that we could choose in the end, but I also saw the Catalyst's explanations about the Crucible as "valid", that it explains it to us to its own best knowledge. I didn't like what the Reapers did and how they did it, but I could understand their motives and how they tried to preserve organics. Then of course, it tries to "manipulate" the player into choosing Synthesis, but is it really manipulation when the player wants peace for these two fractions as well? I picked Synthesis the very first time I played ME3 because I liked the idea of peace and giving everyone a chance because I also had just made peace on Rannoch. And as for the others, I don't see how the Catalyst is trying to talk you into suicide. If these two options are making the player afraid Shepard would die, then pick Destroy. If Shepard has to die in order to use the Crucible, it's the same outcome as if the Reapers would continue to harvest this cycle. Shepard's dead either way. Just in one case all others die with him/her.
When I picked Synthesis I was ready to sacrifice my Shepard, and he did it gladly. But then, it might be my taste differs from yours or other players of course.
I also always try to play Shepards with a different mind-set so they might choose Synthesis or Control in the future depending on what they fight for or believe in, even if those are my personal disliked options, along with Refuse.
1) I will throw in a specific in a moment, but it isn't necessary. The fact that plotholes exist is enough to debunk the idea that writers are infallible. A big one for me is that if the Catalyst lives on the Citadel and the Citadel is part of it, why did it need a Keeper signal or Soverein to open the Citadel relay?
2) The Catalyst's premise is not that Synthetics and Organics fight; it is that Synthetics will always surpass and completely wipe out Organics. Without the Reaper code, the Quarians win. There's also the fact that the Geth did not wipe out the Quarians in the Morning War.
3) The games are primary media. All other media should add flavor and side stories. I should not have to go so secondary media for the primary media to make sense.
Organics vs Synthetics was always there, but as a secondary theme. It was never the primary one. Saren, the primary antagonist of the first game, was Organic. Yes, he was the puppet of the Big Bad, Sovereign. The Collectors, the primary antagonists of the second game, were organic, though highly modified. And in ME3, Cerberus , the primary antagonist, was full of tech infused Organics. Organic v Synthetic was central to the Geth/Quarian conflict, as well as a few side missions, but that's it.
No, the Catalyst is wrong. He said the Synthetics will wipe out all organic life. The Geth let the Quarians leave.
Why mistrust it? Because it admits to being in control of your enemy that operates by putting ideas in your head and controlling your brain.
Again, the Catalyst's premise is not "that Organics-Synthetics" can never get along. It is that the Synthetics will wipe out Organics. First, the Geth didn't wipe out the Quarians after the Morning War. Second, the Geth only destroy the Quarians with Reaper upgrades. Without either intervention, the Quarians win.
1) So the fact that not everything is explained makes it a plot hole? There are enough theories out there that can explain why the Catalyst didn't do anything and it can actually work that way. Just because something isn't spelled out doesn't make it a plot hole.
I personally believe the Keepers were specifically created for this task because the Catalyst has had thralls even before the Reapers existed. I also think that since the Catalyst absolutely needs or wants to stay hidden, it would task something else to do the work for it so someone never actually can track it down.
Of course we know the writers haven't thought out the Catalyst in ME1 already, but it can still work in hindsight.
2) What makes you say the Quarians would win this thing? This is only after Shepard helps again (taking out the Reaper Signal). Had Shepard not taken out the Reaper on Rannoch, and the geth would still be under influence of the signal, the quarians would not have won. Raan says when we're on the Dreadnought that things don't look good. And this stays that way as long as the geth are influenced by the Reaper signal. And even without that signal, the geth were already able to almost extinguish the quarians when still being in their infancy (wiping out billions of quarians in only a year, mind you), and nowadays the only thing they'd need to manage to do is shoot down one of the quarian's liveships, and millions of quarians would already starve.
The geth did not wipe out the quarians because they weren't in the condition to pursuit (Geth VI's words) and because they were in their infancy and weren't able to measure the consequences (Legion's words). They didn't let them go out of pure kindness.
You keep saying the Catalyst is wrong. Yeah, maybe. But we can only judge our cycle. We don't know what happened in the past. Likewise, we can't predict the future and can say for sure the geth will stay on the nice side.
3) There's not actually new information in the books that isn't in the game as well, just might make some people understand the Reapers some more, understand how they work and why they view harvesting organics and store them in a Reaper as "helping them ascend". But of course, it's not mandatory. This can be understood from the game as well, just not in as much detail imo. Legion touches on it in ME2 as well.
Ooh, you just reminded me of something and I am mad that I didn't think of it earlier when someone else was complaining about questioning the hate toward the Catalyst and not the Crucible because the Crucible gives the options.
Edit: Changed "complaining about" to "questioning" because of the negative tone and connotation of the former.
Well, I assume this is directed at me, so thank you very much for toning down the negative word choice when I wasn't even complaining about the hate towards the Catalyst. I was just curious, nothing else.
About the quarians winning: The geth took the Reapers offer after getting hit by the quarians so hard, they would have lost without the boost from Reaper signal.
About the quarians winning: The geth took the Reapers offer after getting hit by the quarians so hard, they would have lost without the boost from Reaper signal.
Is that actually stated in the game? If so it slipped my mind. Tali says she opposed the attack because she didn't think they were strong enough to fight this war, and the rest was rather vague to me, when meeting the quarians they don't say they were winning, and the Geth VI/Legion did not exactly say they were losing, just that the quarians hit the Dyson Sphere they were building and that again, self-preservation took over when their intelligence was dimmed.
It almost looks like allying with the Reapers is a precaution. But maybe I missed or don't remember the dialogue where it states the quarians were clearly winning (if so, then sorry and thanks for clarifying).
Is that actually stated in the game? If so it slipped my mind. Tali says she opposed the attack because she didn't think they were strong enough to fight this war, and the rest was rather vague to me, when meeting the quarians they don't say they were winning, and the Geth VI/Legion did not exactly say they were losing, just that the quarians hit the Dyson Sphere they were building and that again, self-preservation took over when their intelligence was dimmed.
It almost looks like allying with the Reapers is a precaution. But maybe I missed or don't remember the dialogue where it states the quarians were clearly winning (if so, then sorry and thanks for clarifying).
Legion does say they were losing, badly. And that's why they took the deal to join the Reapers.
Shepard can even bring up the "Submission preferable to extinction" and Legion admits, that apparently, it was. Survival narrowed their focus.
Is that actually stated in the game? If so it slipped my mind. Tali says she opposed the attack because she didn't think they were strong enough to fight this war, and the rest was rather vague to me, when meeting the quarians they don't say they were winning, and the Geth VI/Legion did not exactly say they were losing, just that the quarians hit the Dyson Sphere they were building and that again, self-preservation took over when their intelligence was dimmed.
It almost looks like allying with the Reapers is a precaution. But maybe I missed or don't remember the dialogue where it states the quarians were clearly winning (if so, then sorry and thanks for clarifying).
It takes the quarians a little over two weeks after the initial assault to shitstomp the geth (who control at least 5 systems over essentially the entire Perseus veil) back into the Tikkun system. If you speak to the toaster taken from the dreadnought, it tries to excuse the decision ally with the Reapers as one of survival ("we have no desire to be exterminated"), and it would be unnessesary to make a Faustian bargain if there were another solution.
Tali thought entirely wrong. The quarians utterly rout the geth before the Reapers get involved, and if there are no Reapers to get involved, there's no reason to think that the geth could ever have countered considering that every program they lose leads to decreased overall intelligence and less chance of coming up with an effective strategy to combat the quarian assault. Oh, and you can directly remove the Reaper influence, returing the conflict to its natural pre-Reaper state, and the geth's virtual arses are subsequently blasted into actual dust.
However, I'd disagree that this means anything in regard to the Catalyst logic. It simply means that the geth were not yet advanced enough to pose an existential threat, and the organics (well at least the quarians, considering no one else was doing anything about it) reacted quickly enough to exterminate them before they upgraded themselves to be such (300 years is absolutely nothing in terms of development when you consider that organics take millions of years to evolve from instinct to sapience). Nothing is going to stop the quarians or any other organic species in the cycle from creating even more advanced synthetics (as it seems the humans are in the process of doing anyway) that will eventually be responsible for their extinction given enough time. Concluding the opposite off of a sample size of one single case study (not even the full cycle) and trying to use it to refute over a billion years of empirical evidence in countless cycles to the contrary is a losing proposition.
True that the hole is lacking, IIRC the decision chamber is supposed to be foldet together like an umbrella and form the pin of of the Crucible in flight mode. But yes, something must have done some extensive on the fly modifications of the Citadel when the Crucible docked.
It's just cutscene difference, like gameplay/story segregation.
I agree with you, obviously the quarians are not the innocent party here either. But the thing is that the Catalyst tells us "the created will always rebel against the creators". While I understand that the geth defending themselves is not an act of rebellion, but reacting like any species would, their initial refusal to shut down is what I would consider as rebelling. Then there's EDI, a creation by Cerberus who also ends up opposing them eventually.
The premise is not that synthetics simply rebel or oppose their creators; it is that they wipe them out. Neither of these happen. Not only do the Geth decide against wiping out the Quarians, though they did kill many, but they planned to upload into and chill out in their superstructure. (Ooh, what if that was actually part of the game, not just mentioned, and it was basically a Geth Reaper?!)
I didn't have Leviathan first and I only bought Javik after finishing ME3 as well, so I first saw everything without those additions, and I still didn't find the ending as bad as many think it is. Maybe I saw more behind the Reapers' motives or rather actually "bought" them more than other players did, I don't know. Maybe I just saw the Catalyst wouldn't need a reason to lie. If it wanted it could've just said nothing to me and waited for the Reapers to continue the harvest or if Shepard uses the Crucible by him-/herself. If it wanted to lie to Shepard in order for Shepard to die or anything, what would've been the point if the Reapers can take care of that anyway? Why would what happened in the past with synthetics even matter? It tells us in two instances we'd have to give up our physical form, and it's heavily implied in the third, so I don't really see it actually lying to be of relevance here either.
Btw, I agree of course that story content like Leviathan which explains something in more detail should've originally been in the story, or left out completely. Although of course the AI must have been built by some organics, so we can deduce there was something like that happening.
This is tough to answer because I, the player, was sure the Catalyst wasn't lying, but stepping into Shepard's head, I might be concerned that the Crucible was a trap. Perhaps we actually could win conventionally and this was some Reaper contingency plan. After all, Sovereign told Shepard that the Reapers left behind technology for them to find. And, much like the Relays. these Crucible plans somehow survive every cycle. The other thing is that even if I beleived the Catalyst about the Crucible itself, I have no reason to believe it that Synthesis is great. It obviously wants it, which, barring any other information, is enough for me to oppose it.
Unless it's reverse psychology! Oh noes!
Yes, as I mentioned above, quarians are not the innocent party, and I think that is exactly the point players have to make up their mind about, everyone's opinion can differ on this topic, since we all view these kind of things differently. Some might say the geth rebelled first and deserve to be put down when disobeying, others might say the quarians were totally wrong to turn against the geth out of fear and the unknown. Some may consider geth as alive, some will still lable them as empty tin cans (when we go around the ship in ME3 there are lots of debates on this topic with the crew). This in itself is thinking about the synthetic/organic conflict and it prepares you for the end. You take a stance and maybe even a side, or maybe you stay on neutral ground, but that doesn't mean the Catalyst was wrong about what happened in the past. And that's what I'm trying to argue. Achieving peace or a truce for once does not mean the Catalyst talks BS about the past. And who knows, the possibility that this peace might not last is there, isn't it? Having this peace and giving the geth this chance might be just as risky as curing the genophage. We don't know the outcome. And even if there was eternal peace, the Catalyst was programmed with this mandate because both Leviathans and Catalyst were the ones experiencing this in the past until the Catalyst came up with the cycle solution.
As far as the Quarians, I wish there had been the option to point out that it really doesn't matter because all the Quarians that were alive 300 years ago are long dead. I don't know if Geth wear out and die or are replaced like in the Matrix, but it's implied that the programs in Legion were around then. But the current Quarians had nothing to do with that. What they need to do is see this as a restart point.
Anyway, you're right that the current events do no mean the Catalyst was wrong about the past, but the do show a problem with the "always" premise. If the premise is not relevant here, than neither is the solution. Basically, the Reapers aren't needed and can go away. Maybe they will be in the future. In that case, they know where to find everybody.
Maybe that's the thing. I always thought from the get-go that something is preventing the Catalyst to act, even if the Crucible is "little more than a power source" I thought there must be more happening to... something, dunno, because of the dialogue and that we could choose in the end, but I also saw the Catalyst's explanations about the Crucible as "valid", that it explains it to us to its own best knowledge. I didn't like what the Reapers did and how they did it, but I could understand their motives and how they tried to preserve organics. Then of course, it tries to "manipulate" the player into choosing Synthesis, but is it really manipulation when the player wants peace for these two fractions as well? I picked Synthesis the very first time I played ME3 because I liked the idea of peace and giving everyone a chance because I also had just made peace on Rannoch. And as for the others, I don't see how the Catalyst is trying to talk you into suicide. If these two options are making the player afraid Shepard would die, then pick Destroy. If Shepard has to die in order to use the Crucible, it's the same outcome as if the Reapers would continue to harvest this cycle. Shepard's dead either way. Just in one case all others die with him/her.
When I picked Synthesis I was ready to sacrifice my Shepard, and he did it gladly. But then, it might be my taste differs from yours or other players of course.
I also always try to play Shepards with a different mind-set so they might choose Synthesis or Control in the future depending on what they fight for or believe in, even if those are my personal disliked options, along with Refuse.
I don't know if it was an influence, but they tried to do something similar to Descent: Freespace, where the Shivans invaded and were wiping out the two major races. In the epilogue, the newly voiced Protagonist explains that they now realize the Shivans do this to keep powerful races from destroying weaker ones. That's not exactly what the Reapers are doing and Descent did a better job of making you potentially sympathetic to the enemy and wonder if the powerful races will choose a different path. On that note, I finally got the second game and got it working and the alliance they form to fight the Shivans is still holding at the start.
I was perfectly fine with sacrificing Shepard. I was not fine with forcing alteration and homogenization on the galaxy in a series about diversity and choice. I don't blame you for liking it. It is clearly written and designed to be the "golden ending."
1) So the fact that not everything is explained makes it a plot hole? There are enough theories out there that can explain why the Catalyst didn't do anything and it can actually work that way. Just because something isn't spelled out doesn't make it a plot hole.
I personally believe the Keepers were specifically created for this task because the Catalyst has had thralls even before the Reapers existed. I also think that since the Catalyst absolutely needs or wants to stay hidden, it would task something else to do the work for it so someone never actually can track it down.
Of course we know the writers haven't thought out the Catalyst in ME1 already, but it can still work in hindsight.
2) What makes you say the Quarians would win this thing? This is only after Shepard helps again (taking out the Reaper Signal). Had Shepard not taken out the Reaper on Rannoch, and the geth would still be under influence of the signal, the quarians would not have won. Raan says when we're on the Dreadnought that things don't look good. And this stays that way as long as the geth are influenced by the Reaper signal. And even without that signal, the geth were already able to almost extinguish the quarians when still being in their infancy (wiping out billions of quarians in only a year, mind you), and nowadays the only thing they'd need to manage to do is shoot down one of the quarian's liveships, and millions of quarians would already starve.
The geth did not wipe out the quarians because they weren't in the condition to pursuit (Geth VI's words) and because they were in their infancy and weren't able to measure the consequences (Legion's words). They didn't let them go out of pure kindness.
You keep saying the Catalyst is wrong. Yeah, maybe. But we can only judge our cycle. We don't know what happened in the past. Likewise, we can't predict the future and can say for sure the geth will stay on the nice side.
3) There's not actually new information in the books that isn't in the game as well, just might make some people understand the Reapers some more, understand how they work and why they view harvesting organics and store them in a Reaper as "helping them ascend". But of course, it's not mandatory. This can be understood from the game as well, just not in as much detail imo. Legion touches on it in ME2 as well.
1) Oh, please, PLEASE don't start with that "What, you need everything explained?" garbage. You're too smart for that. A plot hole is something which causes logical conflict with what was already established before. Plot holes can be different "sizes" and have different effects on the story. Sometimes a question has a clear answer based on context or common sense. Those probably shouldn't be called plot holes. Sometimes it's not a big deal and we can speculate on what happened. However, this one makes us question the entire first game. Sure, there are theories, but that's too big an issue to be left to wild speculation. It is not our job to fill plot holes for the writer.
2) I mean that the Quarians would win without the Reaper signal, just like I said. They backed the Geth up to Rannoch and that is when the Reapers interfere, turning the tide. Then, once all Reaper influence is removed. the Quarians wipe out the Geth.
As for why the Quarians win here when they couldn't defeat the Geth before, I couldn't really tell you. Maybe it's all those dreadnaught guns they had on the live ships, maybe it was the destruction of the so many Geth in the superstructure. I don't know. It's a great question and possibly even, as discussed in #1, a plot hole. It's not nearly as bad as the one discussed above, but it could be called one.
As for the Catalyst, the past is irrelevant. What matters is the current cycle is different and the Reapers are neither needed nor wanted. Maybe the Geth or some other Synthetic will rise up and be the problem the Catalyst describes. But the galaxy will deal with that on it's own terms. As Legion says, they'll build their own future.
As always:
3) I wish they had gone more into what the value of being "preserved" as a Reaper is.
About the quarians winning: The geth took the Reapers offer after getting hit by the quarians so hard, they would have lost without the boost from Reaper signal.
Is that actually stated in the game? If so it slipped my mind. Tali says she opposed the attack because she didn't think they were strong enough to fight this war, and the rest was rather vague to me, when meeting the quarians they don't say they were winning, and the Geth VI/Legion did not exactly say they were losing, just that the quarians hit the Dyson Sphere they were building and that again, self-preservation took over when their intelligence was dimmed.
It almost looks like allying with the Reapers is a precaution. But maybe I missed or don't remember the dialogue where it states the quarians were clearly winning (if so, then sorry and thanks for clarifying).
Yes, and I love that Legion gives the "brain fart" as a reason why they did it. The Quarians will explain that they backed the Geth all the way up to Rannoch itself and are unable to push farther.
However, I'd disagree that this means anything in regard to the Catalyst logic. It simply means that the geth were not yet advanced enough to pose an existential threat, and the organics (well at least the quarians, considering no one else was doing anything about it) reacted quickly enough to exterminate them before they upgraded themselves to be such (300 years is absolutely nothing in terms of development when you consider that organics take millions of years to evolve from instinct to sapience). Nothing is going to stop the quarians or any other organic species in the cycle from creating even more advanced synthetics (as it seems the humans are in the process of doing anyway) that will eventually be responsible for their extinction given enough time. Concluding the opposite off of a sample size of one single case study (not even the full cycle) and trying to use it to refute over a billion years of empirical evidence in countless cycles to the contrary is a losing proposition.
I undersand this but my problem is that the Catalyst makes "always" statements about it. The current cycle doesn't refute the previous evdence at all, but it breaks the "always" notion. This cycle is different and does not require the Reaper's solution, at least not at this point in time. After all, one of the big questions is "why every 50,000 years?" and not wait until the super-synthetics get uppity.
Or what if Synthetics killed everything in year 42,537?
Secondly, as far as the Geth not advancing enough, while something could always change given infinite time, the Geth show no signs of aggression toward the Organics of the galaxy. In fact, it seems like they were going to all chill in their superstructure. Or, if you look at the fact that they've been taking care of Rannoch and some of Legion's dialogue, I've wondered if the Geth don't want to go back to serving the Quarians. They just want to exist,
Oh, and you can directly remove the Reaper influence, returing the conflict to its natural pre-Reaper state, and the geth's virtual arses are subsequently blasted into actual dust.
Thank you for the reference to one of my favorite lines from the first game!
Retour en haut
and humanity´s recent additions like rewiring the whole thing, replacing the powercore and slapping on something because it could be useful. 
