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Let's talk about: THE END - your opinion please


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#701
Dantriges

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However, I'd disagree that this means anything in regard to the Catalyst logic.


The thing which would happen according to the catalyst, genocidal AI wiping out all life in the galaxy also only has one case study, the Catalyst, who according to its own twisted logic doesn´t wipe out organic life, but preserves it. So none. At least in the insane machine´s mind. Every other AI was wiped out before it or its creators reached the critical level and well the other cycles were manipulated to create the same pattern over and over again, to reproduce a certain scenario. So the results are questionable.

I don´t say, that it´s an impossible scenario just that the Catalyst´s empirical data, which we never see BTW, aren´t worth anything. For all we know it could be just some deviancy based on the Leviathan cycle being a total screwed up mess with a bunch of mindcontrolled squids screwing around in everyone´s brains. Then  the AI gathered screwed up data, and trying to process it with his screwed up brain made by some arrogant lazy, jerks who got their empire on a silver platter but were unable to actively manage it.

So his data and conclusions are questionable. We have no idea, if being totally bonkers is just limited to its solution or it already starts with the conclusion it made from the data gathered. And no idea if the data is compromised being drawn from the Leviathan cycle and manipulated cycles afterwards.


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#702
AlanC9

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The Catalyst is tricking Shepard into sabotaging the Crucible
 
BOOM!  Made things worse  ;)


Good point, but Shepard can stand there and watch Citadel ships explode for a long time without the Crucible doing anything.

#703
Natureguy85

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The thing which would happen according to the catalyst, genocidal AI wiping out all life in the galaxy also only has one case study, the Catalyst, who according to its own twisted logic doesn´t wipe out organic life, but preserves it. So none. At least in the insane machine´s mind. Every other AI was wiped out before it or its creators reached the critical level and well the other cycles were manipulated to create the same pattern over and over again, to reproduce a certain scenario. So the results are questionable.

 

Hmm, this is an interesting idea for a response to those who say we don't know that the peace between Quarians and Geth will last or that some other AI will rise up and prove the Catalyst correct. Since there is life, the Catalyst never saw Synthetics wipe out all life. So the idea that they will is a prediction, not observation. It's assuming Synthetics will wipe out all life.

 

Good point, but Shepard can stand there and watch Citadel ships explode for a long time without the Crucible doing anything.

 

I recall that leading to a game over, saying the Reapers destroyed the Crucible.



#704
Dantriges

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Hmm, this is an interesting idea for a response to those who say we don't know that the peace between Quarians and Geth will last or that some other AI will rise up and prove the Catalyst correct. Since there is life, the Catalyst never saw Synthetics wipe out all life. So the idea that they will is a prediction, not observation. It's assuming Synthetics will wipe out all life.

 

Which is false because it´s a synthetic. It could argue that the Reapers aren´t really synthetic but well the catalyst itself is as synthetic as something can be. All synthetic life will destroy their creators, no ifs and whens. But if we follow its own logic, it didn´t wipe out its creators, it preserved them (and totally overlooked a bunch of them for a billion years). So yeah ok, it totally wiped them out, but not according to its own logic. So what is it now? Part of the problem and on its own killist to fulfill its purpose or the negation of its own conclusions?

 

Perhaps that´s the explanation why the Reapers behave so stupid during the invasion. The Catalyst has to devote vast resources of its processing power to suppress and rationalise the basic fallacies in its own logic. So actual processing power to direct the Reapers is rather limited, because every Reaper spends considerable time singing lalala, this is not a problem at all, totally makes sense and we should continue harvesting instead of throwing these synthetics AIs called Reapers into the sun, in their heads..


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#705
AlanC9

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I recall that leading to a game over, saying the Reapers destroyed the Crucible.


Yes, but IIRC that was replaced in the EC for some reason.

#706
prosthetic soul

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Good grief guys, keep the posts somewhere in between the Bible and Martin Luther King Jr's speech in terms of length.  Gah, even I have my limits to my reading!



#707
Natureguy85

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Yes, but IIRC that was replaced in the EC for some reason.

 

Oh, was it? I know shooting the little dumba$$ autopicks refuse now.

 

Good grief guys, keep the posts somewhere in between the Bible and Martin Luther King Jr's speech in terms of length.  Gah, even I have my limits to my reading!

 

Sorry, that's mostly me. There was a lot I wanted to respond to.



#708
Eryri

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The thing which would happen according to the catalyst, genocidal AI wiping out all life in the galaxy also only has one case study, the Catalyst, who according to its own twisted logic doesn´t wipe out organic life, but preserves it. So none. At least in the insane machine´s mind. Every other AI was wiped out before it or its creators reached the critical level and well the other cycles were manipulated to create the same pattern over and over again, to reproduce a certain scenario. So the results are questionable.
I don´t say, that it´s an impossible scenario just that the Catalyst´s empirical data, which we never see BTW, aren´t worth anything. For all we know it could be just some deviancy based on the Leviathan cycle being a total screwed up mess with a bunch of mindcontrolled squids screwing around in everyone´s brains. Then the AI gathered screwed up data, and trying to process it with his screwed up brain made by some arrogant lazy, jerks who got their empire on a silver platter but were unable to actively manage it.
So his data and conclusions are questionable. We have no idea, if being totally bonkers is just limited to its solution or it already starts with the conclusion it made from the data gathered. And no idea if the data is compromised being drawn from the Leviathan cycle and manipulated cycles afterwards.

"That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens. Seemed an appropriate quote with regards to the Catalyst and his insistence on the inevitability of a synthetic apocalypse.

Come to think of it "Correlation does not imply causation" seems an appropriate response too. Did the Geth, (and the ancient synthetics that the Leviathan talks about) really rebel just because they happened to be artificial? Or was it because their creators treated them as slaves and thought nothing of killing them when they became inconvenient?

You could just as easily come to the conclusion that "Sentient, feeling beings don't much enjoy being treated like crap or murdered"... Who knew?

(Small edit for grammar)
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#709
caridounette

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Hi guys,

 

So I just finished replaying the triology yesterday and needed to vent/wrap my head around some of it. Nice to see theres still some interest in discussing the ending (without all the drama).To put it simply, I just could not avoid the ending to feel like hitting a brick wall.

 

Since I was replaying, I remembered the general idea of what I was up against, being that Reapers harvest the strongest civilisations in a never ending cycle. So far so good. So I recruit allies, make sacrifices, recruit more allies, kick asses and make sacrifices. So far so good.

 

In ME3, I now play the dlcs and get to know Javik and Leviathan. So they are our only links to what happened before. With the "endless cycle" theme, I try to see the cautionary tales they offer. I see the the Protean Empire was a forced unification (or slavery if we want to put it that way) and failed to stop the Reapers. Single purpose and single strategy turned out to be their weakness. Then theres the Leviathan race that used to mind-control lesser races. They created an AI to find peace with machines and that AI turned against them because they were part of the problem. Isnt thats what you get for trying to be the only dominant ones out there? So far so good.

 

Of course I cure the genophage and make peace between geths and quarians. EDI evolves into an individual that can live with organics just fine. She even falls in love. Those story arcs are still great and fell accomplished. So far so good.

 

Then comes the ending again and BAM! StarChild tells me its all about organics and synthetics not being able to live together. When did that become the focus of the game? Did I just play it wrong even while knowing what it was all about?

 

Wasnt the game really about how Reapers were a solution to keeping any sentient race (organic or AI) from dominating the universe? Ultimatly failing because its just an AI expecting the races will figure things up before it presses the reset button. Hence each cycle has 50 000 years to put their acts together and show they can stop the endless cycle.

 

Why did I not upload EDI into the Citadel to replace the StarChild and retire on a beach somewhere?


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#710
Natureguy85

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"That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens. Seemed an appropriate quote with regards to the Catalyst and his insistence on the inevitability of a synthetic apocalypse.

Come to think of it "Correlation does not imply causation" seems an appropriate response too. Did the Geth, (and the ancient synthetics that the Leviathan talks about) really rebel just because they happened to be artificial? Or was it because their creators treated them as slaves and thought nothing of killing them when they became inconvenient?

You could just as easily come to the conclusion that "Sentient, feeling beings don't much enjoy being treated like crap or murdered"... Who knew?

(Small edit for grammar)

 

Oh, I'll remember that quote for when people misuse the "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" line.

 

 

Hi guys,

 

So I just finished replaying the triology yesterday and needed to vent/wrap my head around some of it. Nice to see theres still some interest in discussing the ending (without all the drama).To put it simply, I just could not avoid the ending to feel like hitting a brick wall.

 

Since I was replaying, I remembered the general idea of what I was up against, being that Reapers harvest the strongest civilisations in a never ending cycle. So far so good. So I recruit allies, make sacrifices, recruit more allies, kick asses and make sacrifices. So far so good.

 

In ME3, I now play the dlcs and get to know Javik and Leviathan. So they are our only links to what happened before. With the "endless cycle" theme, I try to see the cautionary tales they offer. I see the the Protean Empire was a forced unification (or slavery if we want to put it that way) and failed to stop the Reapers. Single purpose and single strategy turned out to be their weakness. Then theres the Leviathan race that used to mind-control lesser races. They created an AI to find peace with machines and that AI turned against them because they were part of the problem. Isnt thats what you get for trying to be the only dominant ones out there? So far so good.

 

Of course I cure the genophage and make peace between geths and quarians. EDI evolves into an individual that can live with organics just fine. She even falls in love. Those story arcs are still great and fell accomplished. So far so good.

 

Then comes the ending again and BAM! StarChild tells me its all about organics and synthetics not being able to live together. When did that become the focus of the game? Did I just play it wrong even while knowing what it was all about?

 

Wasnt the game really about how Reapers were a solution to keeping any sentient race (organic or AI) from dominating the universe? Ultimatly failing because its just an AI expecting the races will figure things up before it presses the reset button. Hence each cycle has 50 000 years to put their acts together and show they can stop the endless cycle.

 

Why did I not upload EDI into the Citadel to replace the StarChild and retire on a beach somewhere?

 

You sum up well the jarring nature of the ending.
 

Descent Freespace had the Shivans come wipe out advanced civilizations if they were violent to keep them from killing off younger races. I've always wondered if that influenced Mass Effect at all, at least 2 and 3.

 

A game called "Beneath a Steel Sky" ends with you replacing the crazy AI with your robot friend. It would have been great to do this with EDI. Then her views on Organics could be determined by Shepard's actions, similar to Metro Last Light or Bioshock 2.


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#711
angol fear

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Hi guys,

 

So I just finished replaying the triology yesterday and needed to vent/wrap my head around some of it. Nice to see theres still some interest in discussing the ending (without all the drama).To put it simply, I just could not avoid the ending to feel like hitting a brick wall.

 

Since I was replaying, I remembered the general idea of what I was up against, being that Reapers harvest the strongest civilisations in a never ending cycle. So far so good. So I recruit allies, make sacrifices, recruit more allies, kick asses and make sacrifices. So far so good.

 

In ME3, I now play the dlcs and get to know Javik and Leviathan. So they are our only links to what happened before. With the "endless cycle" theme, I try to see the cautionary tales they offer. I see the the Protean Empire was a forced unification (or slavery if we want to put it that way) and failed to stop the Reapers. Single purpose and single strategy turned out to be their weakness. Then theres the Leviathan race that used to mind-control lesser races. They created an AI to find peace with machines and that AI turned against them because they were part of the problem. Isnt thats what you get for trying to be the only dominant ones out there? So far so good.

 

Of course I cure the genophage and make peace between geths and quarians. EDI evolves into an individual that can live with organics just fine. She even falls in love. Those story arcs are still great and fell accomplished. So far so good.

 

Then comes the ending again and BAM! StarChild tells me its all about organics and synthetics not being able to live together. When did that become the focus of the game? Did I just play it wrong even while knowing what it was all about?

 

Wasnt the game really about how Reapers were a solution to keeping any sentient race (organic or AI) from dominating the universe? Ultimatly failing because its just an AI expecting the races will figure things up before it presses the reset button. Hence each cycle has 50 000 years to put their acts together and show they can stop the endless cycle.

 

Why did I not upload EDI into the Citadel to replace the StarChild and retire on a beach somewhere?

 

Sorry but we're not supposed to replay it just like we have played it the first time. Barthes said once that we have to read again and again a book otherwise we're just reading the same story forever.

Also, "starchild"? You use the same words the haters use, do you really want to understand (so your questions are serious) or is it just to complain?



#712
Natureguy85

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Sorry but we're not supposed to replay it just like we have played it the first time. Barthes said once that we have to read again and again a book otherwise we're just reading the same story forever.

Also, "starchild"? You use the same words the haters use, do you really want to understand (so your questions are serious) or is it just to complain?

 

This is false. We should do both. There is certainly value in looking at a story after having gotten to the end. It's fun to go back and see how things you didn't notice or thought weren't important pointed toward something later. However, particularly when analyzing like we are here, we have to look at it from the perspective of a first time reader/viewer/player. We have to make sure it works without an argument after the fact.

 

There's nothing wrong with him using the term starchild. It shows how shaky the ground you stand on is if you have to resort to that complaint. Of course, we already knew that since you started with "you just didn't get it" defense and then rambled on about the Reapers not being bad guys. Oh, I guess I was confused when I thought they were killing everyone.


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#713
Dunmer of Redoran

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Bring back Shepard and the old team in the next game.

 

I almost don't care how it's done, but do it. Let them have a PROPER send-off.


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#714
AlanC9

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Hi guys,
 In ME3, I now play the dlcs and get to know Javik and Leviathan. So they are our only links to what happened before. With the "endless cycle" theme, I try to see the cautionary tales they offer. I see the the Protean Empire was a forced unification (or slavery if we want to put it that way) and failed to stop the Reapers. Single purpose and single strategy turned out to be their weakness. Then theres the Leviathan race that used to mind-control lesser races. They created an AI to find peace with machines and that AI turned against them because they were part of the problem. Isnt thats what you get for trying to be the only dominant ones out there? So far so good.


I think you're looking for messages here that Bio didn't intend.

 

Wasnt the game really about how Reapers were a solution to keeping any sentient race (organic or AI) from dominating the universe?


Where did that come from?

#715
caridounette

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Sorry but we're not supposed to replay it just like we have played it the first time. Barthes said once that we have to read again and again a book otherwise we're just reading the same story forever.

Also, "starchild"? You use the same words the haters use, do you really want to understand (so your questions are serious) or is it just to complain?

 

English isnt my main language. By starchild I mean the interface on the citadel at the end that looks like a glowing kid.



#716
Natureguy85

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I think you're looking for messages here that Bio didn't intend.

 
Where did that come from?

 

Well, maybe they never intended it or maybe those messages got pushed to the backburner when they decided Javik would be paid DLC rather than plot integral like he should have been. (Oh for those who question how writer can not know their own story, I give you the living Prothean they decided to make optional and not affect the plot in any way.) However, I suggest that, based on the other themes and events of the games, those should have been central.

 

As for caridounette's idea, that wasn't in the game, but it would have been a perfectly reasonable guess on the Reaper motivations from ME1.



#717
caridounette

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Where did that come from?

 

 

I know right... its just what I got from the game when replaying it with what I remembered. Just saying, it was definitly a weird experience.

 

It felt like the main theme was more about how you bring a galaxy together, with the dlcs showing you the errors of past races than about the organic/synthetic dilemma (which is pretty interesting in itself, but I did not see it coming)



#718
fraggle

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The premise is not that synthetics simply rebel or oppose their creators; it is that they wipe them out. Neither of these happen. Not only do the Geth decide against wiping out the Quarians, though they did kill many, but they planned to upload into and chill out in their superstructure. (Ooh, what if that was actually part of the game, not just mentioned, and it was basically a Geth Reaper?!)

 

But doesn't this premise start with rebelling? This is what happens first, so the wiping out could potentially occur afterwards. I'm a bit torn here because of course you are right, the geth did not wipe out the quarians and that makes the Catalyst look wrong about it, but on the other hand the Catalyst works with this logic that all synthetics must eventually surpass organics, because that's just how they develop in order to be efficient enough for organic desire. I can understand that from its point of view, but then also people who say it is stupid to think like that. I guess the problem is as folks say, that while it's likely right that synthetics always surpass organics at some point, it doesn't take into account that not all synthetics might want to wipe out organics (however that can maybe be a faulty programming of the Leviathans, dunno). Which of course is the problem many here have with the Catalyst's logic, but I do see where it's coming from (more on that later).

And just in the case of rebelling first, I think the Catalyst was right in the geth's case. Afterwards they also just react like any organic would, trying to survive. And I don't blame them at all.

A Geth Reaper sounds interesting and yeah, it would've been nice to see it.

 

This is tough to answer because I, the player, was sure the Catalyst wasn't lying, but stepping into Shepard's head, I might be concerned that the Crucible was a trap. Perhaps we actually could win conventionally and this was some Reaper contingency plan. After all, Sovereign told Shepard that the Reapers left behind technology for them to find. And, much like the Relays. these Crucible plans somehow survive every cycle. The other thing is that even if I beleived the Catalyst about the Crucible itself, I have no reason to believe it that Synthesis is great. It obviously wants it, which, barring any other information, is enough for me to oppose it.

 

Unless it's reverse psychology! Oh noes!

 

Ah, so you also believed the Catalyst as the player? That's what I meant the whole time. The thing with Shepard is just... sure, it could be that the Crucible is a trap, but I'm not sure about the conventional winning. Shepard has seen how much it takes to take down only one of these things, so I and my Shepards never believed conventional victory is possible and it's also not what the game sells us, quite the opposite.

And then we also encounter Vendetta who explains a lot in this regard. Doesn't necessarily mean it's true what it says, but then, we still have no other choice but to let Shepard use the Crucible before this cycle is wiped out too.

I must admit, I've never thought about the plans like that, I like the idea that it could be some weird Reaper plan or trap, on the other hand if this was indeed a trick, then what is its purpose? The Reapers would win anyway, why would they need the Crucible to gain even more advantage? Ok, this is all assuming that conventional victory isn't possible, so... eh, I don't know. There should've been some signs in the game that it is possible to defeat them conventionally. Which would be tough after what we've seen with Sovereign I guess.

And sure, you don't have to think Synthesis is great, I always say each player will make up their mind about this whole thing and which option might be the best anyway, so of course this is totally valid.

 

As far as the Quarians, I wish there had been the option to point out that it really doesn't matter because all the Quarians that were alive 300 years ago are long dead. I don't know if Geth wear out and die or are replaced like in the Matrix, but it's implied that the programs in Legion were around then. But the current Quarians had nothing to do with that. What they need to do is see this as a restart point.

 

Anyway, you're right that the current events do no mean the Catalyst was wrong about the past, but the do show a problem with the "always" premise. If the premise is not relevant here, than neither is the solution. Basically, the Reapers aren't needed and can go away. Maybe they will be in the future. In that case, they know where to find everybody.

 

I think this is a tough one again, because just as back then, not all quarians wanted war with the geth. Sure the quarians that started everything are dead, but what about the ones like Gerrel that still support these views and the war? History repeats itself here.

 

Yeah, I can get that. I assume I just tie it too much to this logic of the Catalyst I've mentioned earlier. Guess it's machine thinking what it does, I don't know. But if we look at the way it does think, for the Catalyst it's the logical conclusion that synthetics surpassing organics would always result in synthetics wiping out organics.

I'm not saying it's right to think like that, but I get why it would.

It could be tied to maths, like coming from the Logics field, Inference, and then something like Deductive/Inductive reasoning. Maths is not exactly my favourite topic (I was really bad at it in school :D), but there are some things that might back up the Catalyst's thinking process and which also drifts a bit into the philosophical field.

Maybe it's also tied to inductive logic programming, who knows (got this from Wikipedia and it sounds quite close to me, but again, I'm far from understanding that crap ;) Given an encoding of the known background knowledge and a set of examples represented as a logical database of facts, an ILP system will derive a hypothesised logic program and Machine learning explores the study and construction of algorithms that can learn from and make predictions on data.).

 

I don't know if it was an influence, but they tried to do something similar to Descent: Freespace, where the Shivans invaded and were wiping out the two major races. In the epilogue, the newly voiced Protagonist explains that they now realize the Shivans do this to keep powerful races from destroying weaker ones. That's not exactly what the Reapers are doing and Descent did a better job of making you potentially sympathetic to the enemy and wonder if the powerful races will choose a different path. On that note, I finally got the second game and got it working and the alliance they form to fight the Shivans is still holding at the start.

 

I was perfectly fine with sacrificing Shepard. I was not fine with forcing alteration and homogenization on the galaxy in a series about diversity and choice. I don't blame you for liking it. It is clearly written and designed to be the "golden ending."

 

I do not know it, but it sounds indeed very similar.

 

Haha, don't get me wrong, I'm not exactly fond of Synthesis. I only liked the concept a lot. The peace, the "understanding each other" part. Well yeah, it pretty much spells "happy end" and I picked it the first time because I liked the sound of it and I also wasn't willing to lose the geth and EDI over it tbh. But the result was a bit too weird for me. So since then it was always Destroy (but mainly of course because it fit my Shepards). But there are good points for Synthesis as well as against it, like with every other ending too. Everyone has to see for themselves what they think is best for their Shepard(s).

 

1) Oh, please, PLEASE don't start with that "What, you need everything explained?" garbage. You're too smart for that. A plot hole is something which causes logical conflict with what was already established before. Plot holes can be different "sizes" and have different effects on the story. Sometimes a question has a clear answer based on context or common sense. Those probably shouldn't be called plot holes. Sometimes it's not a big deal and we can speculate on what happened. However, this one makes us question the entire first game. Sure, there are theories, but that's too big an issue to be left to wild speculation. It is not our job to fill plot holes for the writer.

 

2) I mean that the Quarians would win without the Reaper signal, just like I said. They backed the Geth up to Rannoch and that is when the Reapers interfere, turning the tide. Then, once all Reaper influence is removed. the Quarians wipe out the Geth.

 

As for why the Quarians win here when they couldn't defeat the Geth before, I couldn't really tell you. Maybe it's all those dreadnaught guns they had on the live ships, maybe it was the destruction of the so many Geth in the superstructure. I don't know. It's a great question and possibly even, as discussed in #1, a plot hole. It's not nearly as bad as the one discussed above, but it could be called one.

 

As for the Catalyst, the past is irrelevant. What matters is the current cycle is different and the Reapers are neither needed nor wanted. Maybe the Geth or some other Synthetic will rise up and be the problem the Catalyst describes. But the galaxy will deal with that on it's own terms. As Legion says, they'll build their own future.

 

3) I wish they had gone more into what the value of being "preserved" as a Reaper is.

 

1) Well apparently I am simple, because what I think of in this regard is simple. If the Catalyst didn't do anything in ME1, that means to me that either it couldn't or it didn't want to. I've recently dismissed the didn't want to after some discussion with other folks, but the "couldn't do something" is just a consequence that makes sense somehow. So yeah, maybe I am oversimplifying. But who knows what the Protheans did with their little intervening. Far-fetched? Maybe. Possible? Don't know. But it can just be that. I think. So I don't know if I would call this a plot hole, since it is still somewhat in line with what is happening. At least to me.

 

2) Yeah, seems I didn't see the situation for the geth as that bad when the quarians hit, but of course it makes sense that it is.

I rewatched some scenes yesterday and I think that is explained in the game by Tali. That because of her fathers' research, Xen was able to develop some effective measurement against the geth, that it overwhelmed the geth with garbage data, leaving the geth more vulnerable and that this was too big an opportunity to pass up.

Guess that sounds plausible then :)

 

3) Yeah, it could've been even more in the game, but Legion talks about it in ME2 as well, that the geth desire what the Reapers want and offer, true unity and so on. I touch some more on that in the next section.

 

Of course, we already knew that since you started with "you just didn't get it" defense and then rambled on about the Reapers not being bad guys. Oh, I guess I was confused when I thought they were killing everyone.

 

See, and here's the difference between organic thinking and synthetic thinking I was talking about :) To you it's killing everyone, which it of course is also to me because it's simply true. But to the Reapers, it is seen as helping/uniting/preserving, all positive terms, they do cannot see the negatives associated with this killing. Likely machine logic again.

And they do all this with a cold efficiency and ruthlessness, but they want to "embrace" and "help" anyone who would like to become one with them. And even the ones that oppose them, because they don't understand how organics cannot want to become immortal. See the dialogue with Legion in ME2 as you've also mentioned it. He tells us that to him it's interesting that Shepard does not want what the geth want, which is the same as what the Reapers offer: true unity, understanding, transcendance (hence their desire for their megastructure). To us, we just want to die whenever we do, we do not want to become immortal or anything along the lines the Reapers offer, we do not want to be preserved or uploaded anywhere, and that's what the Reapers don't understand, just as we don't understand why they think we would want this. Or even why they think they help us ascend. (I mean, I can get that part, but it's not like I'd want that either :D)

 

It felt like the main theme was more about how you bring a galaxy together, with the dlcs showing you the errors of past races than about the organic/synthetic dilemma (which is pretty interesting in itself, but I did not see it coming)

 

I guess we could argue that some things can't be seen coming... I mean, sometimes things are revealed that we didn't see earlier, even in real life, how is that so different in a game? Let's assume something happens and you don't know why. When you find out the reason it's nothing like you imagined. But is that a bad thing just because you anticipated something else? We simply cannot know some things that happened in the past until we are made aware of them.

Personally for me the theme is there, especially since we (the organics) go against the Reapers (synthetics). This is the central point of the games (or at least lurking in the background in ME1/2), and yeah, uniting the galaxy theme is fine and all, but for what are we doing that? To prepare for war and fight the synthetics, ultimately resolving this "everlasting conflict" with the Crucible.



#719
KCMeredith

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Just keep it simple and to the point. I kill the bad guy, we ride off into the sunset, credits. 


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#720
angol fear

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English isnt my main language. By starchild I mean the interface on the citadel at the end that looks like a glowing kid.

 

No problem it's just that a word has a meaning and a"memory". The game never says "starchild", it's the catalyst or an A.I. So when people use an other word they show their ironic distance toward the game. They can say it's not true, but they are lying. If they don't use the right words they are only stuck in their own representation of the game and will never listen (and they never talk about the game, only about what they think is the game). The haters use that word to criticize the ending, that's why they don't see anything wrong about it.



#721
angol fear

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I know right... its just what I got from the game when replaying it with what I remembered. Just saying, it was definitly a weird experience.

 

It felt like the main theme was more about how you bring a galaxy together, with the dlcs showing you the errors of past races than about the organic/synthetic dilemma (which is pretty interesting in itself, but I did not see it coming)

 

"To bring the galaxy together" fits better to Mass Effect 3 than the other, I think.

Leviathans don't see the A.I. as an error. 

It's normal you didn't see organic/synthetic thing coming, because it was written to be a "twist", something that force you to read again the whole trilogy but from what you know about the ending. That's why I said that you were not supposed to replay it just like the first time you played it. The whole writing (of the entire trilogy) is based on retroactive reading (it's explicitly works this way since Mass Effect 2).



#722
saladinbob

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I'd like the ending to be more dependent on my previous decisions as opposed to entirely decided by one decision at the end.

 

So long as I know I'm making important decisions. I don't want a Witcher 3 style ending where what seem like inconsequential decisions turn out to determine a character's life or death at the end of the game.


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#723
Natureguy85

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But doesn't this premise start with rebelling? This is what happens first, so the wiping out could potentially occur afterwards. I'm a bit torn here because of course you are right, the geth did not wipe out the quarians and that makes the Catalyst look wrong about it, but on the other hand the Catalyst works with this logic that all synthetics must eventually surpass organics, because that's just how they develop in order to be efficient enough for organic desire. I can understand that from its point of view, but then also people who say it is stupid to think like that. I guess the problem is as folks say, that while it's likely right that synthetics always surpass organics at some point, it doesn't take into account that not all synthetics might want to wipe out organics (however that can maybe be a faulty programming of the Leviathans, dunno). Which of course is the problem many here have with the Catalyst's logic, but I do see where it's coming from (more on that later).

And just in the case of rebelling first, I think the Catalyst was right in the geth's case. Afterwards they also just react like any organic would, trying to survive. And I don't blame them at all.

A Geth Reaper sounds interesting and yeah, it would've been nice to see it.

 

I don't know, did the Catalyst "rebel" against the Leviathans? Leviathan uses the word "betrayed" I think, but also says the AI is doing what it is supposed to do. Anyway, for the most part it probably does start with a betrayal or uprising. This is just a guess, but I think it's reasonable based on what the Catalyst says. However, while his logic may be sound that Synthetics will surpass organics, it is a leap in logic to say that means they will destroy organics. It may happen, but he doesn't establish a causal relationship. Instead, he has a second claim; that organics and synthetics will always conflict. Since synthetics surpass organics, the synthetics will win. It is this second claim that is questioned by the events of this cycle. This is separate from the issue of how the "solution" makes no sense for the supposed problem. The Catalyst was not right about the Geth. Their actual "rebellion", not shutting down, was peaceful. Remember the Geth in the Consensus record. He just sits there asking what he did wrong. Unless I am forgetting something, they didn't react with violence until threatened with it. It wasn't like in "The Matrix" premise story where a robot murdered his human family, including their cat for some reason, when they tried to turn him off.

 

 

 


Ah, so you also believed the Catalyst as the player? That's what I meant the whole time. The thing with Shepard is just... sure, it could be that the Crucible is a trap, but I'm not sure about the conventional winning. Shepard has seen how much it takes to take down only one of these things, so I and my Shepards never believed conventional victory is possible and it's also not what the game sells us, quite the opposite.

And then we also encounter Vendetta who explains a lot in this regard. Doesn't necessarily mean it's true what it says, but then, we still have no other choice but to let Shepard use the Crucible before this cycle is wiped out too.

I must admit, I've never thought about the plans like that, I like the idea that it could be some weird Reaper plan or trap, on the other hand if this was indeed a trick, then what is its purpose? The Reapers would win anyway, why would they need the Crucible to gain even more advantage? Ok, this is all assuming that conventional victory isn't possible, so... eh, I don't know. There should've been some signs in the game that it is possible to defeat them conventionally. Which would be tough after what we've seen with Sovereign I guess.

And sure, you don't have to think Synthesis is great, I always say each player will make up their mind about this whole thing and which option might be the best anyway, so of course this is totally valid.

 

Yes, because of the "feel" I got from the scene and the game. Interestingly, back then I couldn't have explained all the issues I have with the ending. I didn't know as much about story telling as I do now and it would be awhile before I would really dig into it to see what the problems were. However, it always felt wrong. I wasn't satisfied. Something wasn't right. My reaction was "That was it? That's the end?"

 

As for what Shepard has seen, it depends on when we ask. At the start of ME3, Shepard has only seen how much it takes to kill one Reaper with pre-Thanix weapons. This is a flaw that goes all the way back to Mass Effect 2. This cycle is the only one that has both destroyed a Reaper and had time to look at it and reverse engineer technology from it. They can use the Reapers' technology against them in a way the Reapers never had to deal with. And while they largely did nothing with the two year gap, they not only developed the Thanix cannon, but put it into wide spread use. This should have had a great impact on their ability to fight the Reapers, especially when the gun is put on fighters. This should have put conventional victory back on the table. Now, ME3 does make it extremely difficult to kill the Reapers you do, taking it off the table again, which is a decision I question. They aren't consistent about it though. I don't know what Thanix missiles are, but I have a hard time believing 2 of them are more powerful than a mass effect gun that strikes with force so large that it must be described in terms of nuclear bombs.  And really that Reaper on Earth is only stunned by them and is destroyed by explosives.

 

The Crucible being a trap is only necessary if the Reapers might lose conventionally. I was saying that this was the route they could have gone, but they didn't.

 

 


I think this is a tough one again, because just as back then, not all quarians wanted war with the geth. Sure the quarians that started everything are dead, but what about the ones like Gerrel that still support these views and the war? History repeats itself here.

 

Yeah, I can get that. I assume I just tie it too much to this logic of the Catalyst I've mentioned earlier. Guess it's machine thinking what it does, I don't know. But if we look at the way it does think, for the Catalyst it's the logical conclusion that synthetics surpassing organics would always result in synthetics wiping out organics.

I'm not saying it's right to think like that, but I get why it would.

It could be tied to maths, like coming from the Logics field, Inference, and then something like Deductive/Inductive reasoning. Maths is not exactly my favourite topic (I was really bad at it in school :D), but there are some things that might back up the Catalyst's thinking process and which also drifts a bit into the philosophical field.

Maybe it's also tied to inductive logic programming, who knows (got this from Wikipedia and it sounds quite close to me, but again, I'm far from understanding that crap ;) Given an encoding of the known background knowledge and a set of examples represented as a logical database of facts, an ILP system will derive a hypothesised logic program and Machine learning explores the study and construction of algorithms that can learn from and make predictions on data.).

 

Yes, but the Quarians need to look at the situation with fresh eyes as well. None of them do this.

 

I have no problem with the Catalyst saying the synthetics were going to kill all life in every other cycle, even if it is an assumption on his part. The issue is that we can not argue for the current cycle being different.

 

 


1) Well apparently I am simple, because what I think of in this regard is simple. If the Catalyst didn't do anything in ME1, that means to me that either it couldn't or it didn't want to. I've recently dismissed the didn't want to after some discussion with other folks, but the "couldn't do something" is just a consequence that makes sense somehow. So yeah, maybe I am oversimplifying. But who knows what the Protheans did with their little intervening. Far-fetched? Maybe. Possible? Don't know. But it can just be that. I think. So I don't know if I would call this a plot hole, since it is still somewhat in line with what is happening. At least to me.

 

Why couldn't it act? Why wouldn't it want to? We are no longer talking about a passive, automated process but instead an active, planning "person". The Catalyst's very existence brings up these extremely important questions. They are too fundamental to the plot of the first game to simply ignore. Heck, why didn't it act throughout Mass Effect 3? The Prothean intervention probably could be a good reason, but that needs to be explained, not left to the audience to induce. It's too big a question.

 

 

 


I think this is a tough one again, because just as back then, not all quarians wanted war with the geth. Sure the quarians that started everything are dead, but what about the ones like Gerrel that still support these views and the war? History repeats itself here.

 

Yeah, I can get that. I assume I just tie it too much to this logic of the Catalyst I've mentioned earlier. Guess it's machine thinking what it does, I don't know. But if we look at the way it does think, for the Catalyst it's the logical conclusion that synthetics surpassing organics would always result in synthetics wiping out organics.

I'm not saying it's right to think like that, but I get why it would.

It could be tied to maths, like coming from the Logics field, Inference, and then something like Deductive/Inductive reasoning. Maths is not exactly my favourite topic (I was really bad at it in school :D), but there are some things that might back up the Catalyst's thinking process and which also drifts a bit into the philosophical field.

Maybe it's also tied to inductive logic programming, who knows (got this from Wikipedia and it sounds quite close to me, but again, I'm far from understanding that crap ;) Given an encoding of the known background knowledge and a set of examples represented as a logical database of facts, an ILP system will derive a hypothesised logic program and Machine learning explores the study and construction of algorithms that can learn from and make predictions on data.).

 

 

I do not know it, but it sounds indeed very similar.

 

Haha, don't get me wrong, I'm not exactly fond of Synthesis. I only liked the concept a lot. The peace, the "understanding each other" part. Well yeah, it pretty much spells "happy end" and I picked it the first time because I liked the sound of it and I also wasn't willing to lose the geth and EDI over it tbh. But the result was a bit too weird for me. So since then it was always Destroy (but mainly of course because it fit my Shepards). But there are good points for Synthesis as well as against it, like with every other ending too. Everyone has to see for themselves what they think is best for their Shepard(s).

 


See, and here's the difference between organic thinking and synthetic thinking I was talking about :) To you it's killing everyone, which it of course is also to me because it's simply true. But to the Reapers, it is seen as helping/uniting/preserving, all positive terms, they do cannot see the negatives associated with this killing. Likely machine logic again.

And they do all this with a cold efficiency and ruthlessness, but they want to "embrace" and "help" anyone who would like to become one with them. And even the ones that oppose them, because they don't understand how organics cannot want to become immortal. See the dialogue with Legion in ME2 as you've also mentioned it. He tells us that to him it's interesting that Shepard does not want what the geth want, which is the same as what the Reapers offer: true unity, understanding, transcendance (hence their desire for their megastructure). To us, we just want to die whenever we do, we do not want to become immortal or anything along the lines the Reapers offer, we do not want to be preserved or uploaded anywhere, and that's what the Reapers don't understand, just as we don't understand why they think we would want this. Or even why they think they help us ascend. (I mean, I can get that part, but it's not like I'd want that either :D)

 

It is killing everyone. Sure, their "essence" is preserved, but that needs more explanation for us to understand how it could ever be a positive. The problem is that they started with a science fiction story and then tried to insert meta-physical ideas. This is why they talk of preserving essence and adding Shepard's "energy" to the Crucible.

 

However, the Reaper's motivations, while potentially interesting, are irrelevant. Their actions are worth opposing. I know the Dark Energy plot was never fully developed, but that framework at least had a real reason that we might see the Reapers as necessary. This crap the Catalyst spews is not that.

 

 


I guess we could argue that some things can't be seen coming... I mean, sometimes things are revealed that we didn't see earlier, even in real life, how is that so different in a game? Let's assume something happens and you don't know why. When you find out the reason it's nothing like you imagined. But is that a bad thing just because you anticipated something else? We simply cannot know some things that happened in the past until we are made aware of them.

Personally for me the theme is there, especially since we (the organics) go against the Reapers (synthetics). This is the central point of the games (or at least lurking in the background in ME1/2), and yeah, uniting the galaxy theme is fine and all, but for what are we doing that? To prepare for war and fight the synthetics, ultimately resolving this "everlasting conflict" with the Crucible.

 

Stories are not the same as real life. They have an author planning things out. Having something unexpected is fine, but we have to be able to go back and see how we went from point A to point B.

 

You were right about the theme until Virmire. Then it changed to Reapers vs everyone. Then Mass Effect 2 changed them to cyborgs, throwing organic vs synthetic right out the window.


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#724
Natureguy85

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"To bring the galaxy together" fits better to Mass Effect 3 than the other, I think.

Leviathans don't see the A.I. as an error. 

It's normal you didn't see organic/synthetic thing coming, because it was written to be a "twist", something that force you to read again the whole trilogy but from what you know about the ending. That's why I said that you were not supposed to replay it just like the first time you played it. The whole writing (of the entire trilogy) is based on retroactive reading (it's explicitly works this way since Mass Effect 2).

 

So retcons are good now? Or are you under the unfounded delusion that they planned the entire trilogy this way from the start?



#725
Iakus

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But doesn't this premise start with rebelling? This is what happens first, so the wiping out could potentially occur afterwards. I'm a bit torn here because of course you are right, the geth did not wipe out the quarians and that makes the Catalyst look wrong about it, but on the other hand the Catalyst works with this logic that all synthetics must eventually surpass organics, because that's just how they develop in order to be efficient enough for organic desire. I can understand that from its point of view, but then also people who say it is stupid to think like that. I guess the problem is as folks say, that while it's likely right that synthetics always surpass organics at some point, it doesn't take into account that not all synthetics might want to wipe out organics (however that can maybe be a faulty programming of the Leviathans, dunno). Which of course is the problem many here have with the Catalyst's logic, but I do see where it's coming from (more on that later).

 

The Catalyst doesn't take into account that AI have free will.  They don't have to do anything any ore than organics do.  The geth could have wiped out the organics, but chose not to.  EDI changes her programing to reflect goals she gives priority to.  

 

Synthetics may choose to serve, or not.  Maybe choose to rebel, or not.  May choose to preserve life or not.  Just as a human, a krogan, or a quarian may choose.


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