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Let's talk about: THE END - your opinion please


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#826
straykat

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I don't think the Catalyst necessarily convinced anybody.

 

What was provided was a framework on which the player could operate.

 

The very nature of the endings was that they were open ended enough to justify a plethora of potential outcomes, all left to the player.

 

I honestly don't think the game could have ended in any better way than it did, at least on the macroscopic scale.

 

Regarding Legion, I think that particular scenario was meant to pose a question on whether synthetics deserved to live just like the rest of us and whether they are exonerated from "horrible" choices that would normally be deemed acceptable by humanity if it came to their own survival.

 

Would humans let themselves die out for some moral high ground? In fact, that's exactly the same question that the Catalyst imposes upon Shepard.

 

I don't know about all humans, but that's what some did... in EDI's story about humans dying rather than caving in. She comes to the conclusion herself that she wants to be like that too. Also some organics nuked their own planets. They passed whatever test Legion went through.

 

Terrible test though. :D


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#827
Lebanese Dude

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I don't know about all humans, but that's what some did... in EDI's story about humans dying rather than caving in. She comes to the conclusion herself that wants to be like that too. Also some organics nuked their own planets. They passed whatever test Legion went through.

 

Terrible test though. :D

 

Headcanon right? I remember it was Liara's time capsule that tells the player what happened if Refuse is chosen.

 

Man the thought of that ending chills me. I know it's not real but it still gets to me.



#828
straykat

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Headcanon right? I remember it was Liara's time capsule that tells the player what happened if Refuse is chosen.

 

Man the thought of that ending chills me. I know it's not real but it still gets to me.

 

Headcanon? Which part? I just remember some dialogue about organics nuking their own planets... I think it was in Liara and EDI's conversations. While EDI said that after hearing some radio chatter or something.. or some news update from Anderson. I forgot what it was, but it was one of her last conclusions she made before "updating her code".



#829
Lebanese Dude

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Headcanon? Which part? I just remember some dialogue about organics nuking their own planets... I think it was in Liara and EDI's conversations. While EDI said that after hearing some radio chatter or something.. or some news update from Anderson. I forgot what it was, but it was one of her last conclusions she made before "updating her code".

 

Ah I never actually picked Refuse. I could never bring myself to do it. I just watched the video on youtube once and was cringing throughout the whole thing.



#830
straykat

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Oh, I don't pick Refuse either btw. I pick Destroy. It isn't perfect, but I think it's the one that enables organics (and possibly later, AI) to "create their own future". And if there are AI problems like the Catalyst said, at least it'll be their problem, and their crucible in evolutionary terms.. and their burden to grow from... instead of the Reapers engineering everything.


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#831
Seraphim24

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People who exercise?

 

Well, I suppose there's something to be said for a healthy body, a healthy mind...

 

What? Not a fan of a tainted Malkavian spiltering?

 

On topic, they should of just had a Hamburger ending, where everyone gets hamburgers.



#832
Lebanese Dude

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Oh, I don't pick Refuse either btw. I pick Destroy. It isn't perfect, but I think it's the one that enables organics (and possibly later, AI) to "create their own future". And if there are AI problems like the Catalyst said, at least it'll be their problem, and their crucible in evolutionary terms.. and their burden to grow from... instead of the Reapers engineering everything.

 

Oh yea to me Destroy is the only option in any playthrough.

 

Not that the others don't make some sense if I'm playing a human supremacist for example, but the Mass Effect series became a little too personal for me to be able to separate myself from it near the end. So I always ended up justifying a Destroy ending no matter my character's personality or goals.


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#833
themikefest

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Headcanon? Which part? I just remember some dialogue about organics nuking their own planets...

That was Glyph mentioning that the population of Tyvor was killed. It was self inflicted.


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#834
straykat

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That was Glyph mentioning that the population of Tyvor was killed. It was self inflicted.

 

That's it. Not EDI. Glyph.



#835
DarthSliver

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For some reason I believe that there is much more to it, than just literal VS IT, I think that they tried to copy something from Matrix. It was pointed out little bit with geth consensus mission and Legion´s description of Reaper code. It seems to me that last 30 minutes of games are meant to be in some sort of virtual reality in which you are supposed to choose one of the new solutions of which Catalyst knew about more than he admited. The thing about ending is that choices are build on the Citadel and Crucible is not explained at all, which begs a question about its origin.  I don´t think that Crucible´s origin was actually of some random species, but either way Catalyst´s or Leviathan. And well ending slides of Control and Synthesis, how in the hell would you know if you were already uploaded into the virtual world what is and what isn´t real...

 

Well the reason why that is, is because Javik. Javik feels like cut content because he is cut from the original story. His character was originally what would've gave the Cruicible the big red button that would destroy the Reapers. Javik is the original Cataylst and that is why he feels like cut content and feels so essential to a lot of backstory. He gives tons of backstory that people who didn't do the preorder on ME3 or buy his dlc seperate will never experience. Javik is probably why the ME3 endings feel so messed up to some people like IT believers. I believe in IT but I probably ain't a true IT person since I open to other interpretions and thats because endings are so controversal. But back to Javik, I bring Javik up because a group of friends and I were having a conversation on Javik and those points were brought up. But then I think upon the original script leak of ME3 that we saw over the summer before ME3 released and to be honest it all makes sense if you think about. Javik and him becoming DLC is what messed up the original intent of ME3, Javik is loaded with essential background and you learn alot from him. 



#836
Applepie_Svk

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Well the reason why that is, is because Javik. Javik feels like cut content because he is cut from the original story. His character was originally what would've gave the Cruicible the big red button that would destroy the Reapers. Javik is the original Cataylst and that is why he feels like cut content and feels so essential to a lot of backstory. He gives tons of backstory that people who didn't do the preorder on ME3 or buy his dlc seperate will never experience. Javik is probably why the ME3 endings feel so messed up to some people like IT believers. I believe in IT but I probably ain't a true IT person since I open to other interpretions and thats because endings are so controversal. But back to Javik, I bring Javik up because a group of friends and I were having a conversation on Javik and those points were brought up. But then I think upon the original script leak of ME3 that we saw over the summer before ME3 released and to be honest it all makes sense if you think about. Javik and him becoming DLC is what messed up the original intent of ME3, Javik is loaded with essential background and you learn alot from him. 

 

The problem which occurred with ME3 is that you just can´t release more story driven DLCs to fill blanks, and if you do then you can´t be surprised if players wants to crucify your ass. Javik´s DLC didn´t messed up a narrative, because story has been changed from the Dark Energy arc into the Starchild concept. However it messed up only the model just by simple fact of being behind the additional paywall. You just can´t cut content which is connected to core of the story, while Javik had not much of addition in meaning of core narrative of ME3, he was still part of last two previous games which were focused around the Reapers and Protheans, as a central plot flags of the story. If the literal version is true, then on a scale from 1-10 they much more messed up narrative by Leviathan as much as again attacked the integrity of own product. If we had Leviathan as normal part of game then none would probably even question the outcome, even if players would be unhappy or angry about different things, they would get at least narrative explanation. The thing about DLC is that I don´t mind eploring the world within the universe in which is set the story, but I have a problem with exploiting of central themes thru DLC. The key problem about Leviathan is as I mentioned is that it does not explain Crucible, despite the fact that game try so hard to explain it and ultimately failing in it.

 

The first is the archive on Mars that gives you nothing more then it´s supposed purpose and design, second one is Vendetta who has informations at some level, but it´s questionable if the VI knew how it does work or how it can be operated. If it´s true that Crucible was created by some random specie, then it makes sense that only Vendetta can and know how to use Crucible, because the information about it came from previous cycles and thus someone at some point realy found a way how to destroy Reapers. Story explicitly even says that none ever made it to Catalyst, none ever managed to use or finish the Crucible and all of previous cycles were destroyed right from start with invasion when Reapers shut down the relay network. The last one begs a question of how is even possible that someone could even create Crucible which is supposed to hack entity that none ever knew about, well unless it was planted by Leviathans or Catalyst themselves.

 

The third explanation is said by Leviathan, which is probably lying about the Crucible´s origin, because there is this strange moment in which camera view focuses on Leviathan´s pawn eyes within the dream sequence, that implies either way doubt about it´s purpose or simple fact that Leviathan is trying to hide the true purpose and origin of Crucible. What´s quite interesting about this scene is that what Legion has mentioned within the geth consensus, when he tried to portray things to you with the reality that you are familiar with. If this is true, that everytime within the world of ME, that someone is trying to create an illusion of being in some sort of dream or virtual

reality thus some kind of communication channel, that this reality itself may shape things but can´t hide lies within, only to paint them with something that we are already familiar with. 

 

Last attempt to answer is made by Catalyst  or the entity that claims to be Catalyst. The thing with Catalyst is, that while Vendetta claims that Citadel is Catalyst, the entity claims to be the Catalyst. While the entity claims to be a Catalyst thus Citadel, Leviathnas claims that entity - an AI created Reapers and thru them Citadel and Mass Realys, which implies that AI at some point had to be based somehwere else. But if existed at Citadel whole time, what was point of having ME1 or what´s the point of Prothean´s sabotaging the keepers if the whole time was their true master on the Citadel or what´s the point of having the keepers in order to activate the relay from dark space. Well, not unless the Catalyst is being red herring and the true identity of an AI is Harbinger or something else entirely.

 

The problem of those two claims is who managed to contradicts itself and lore more, and the entity is simply winner. While Vendetta has been only reproducing only what was stored in its memories, Catalyst or the entity contradicts the story and even itself by answering the question about Crucible. It´s even said that Crucible is supposed to be nothing more than battery, if it´s true then choices are brought up to the table by Catalyst, they are even based on the Citadel and that´s one more problem of whole claim that Shepard somehow managed to alter the Catalyst. Catalyst had no obligation to help Shepard, to uplift Shep with that platform, or to even talk with him and he even demostrate it with simple fact of letting you to refuse the choices given by him. 



#837
Han Shot First

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Oh, I don't pick Refuse either btw. I pick Destroy. It isn't perfect, but I think it's the one that enables organics (and possibly later, AI) to "create their own future". And if there are AI problems like the Catalyst said, at least it'll be their problem, and their crucible in evolutionary terms.. and their burden to grow from... instead of the Reapers engineering everything.

 

Also it annihilates the genocidal machines that caused countless mass extinctions and attempted to exterminate your own species.

 

It's really the only ending that guarantees the survival of humanity from an in universe perspective. Control and Synthesis only do so from the player's perspective. The player can feel safe knowing that the devs aren't going to unveil a surprise sequel where the Reapers annihilate the galaxy a century or two later....Shepard however, shouldn't feel anywhere near as secure with those two choices.


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#838
Greetsme

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Yeah, they should have this snotty nose kid with a attitude, who is really some mega alien and he gives you four options.  You can...

 

1 Die

2 Die

3 Die

4 Die

 

It took me a whole 10 seconds to think that one up.


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#839
Iakus

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Also it annihilates the genocidal machines that caused countless mass extinctions and attempted to exterminate your own species.

 

It's really the only ending that guarantees the survival of humanity from an in universe perspective. Control and Synthesis only do so from the player's perspective. The player can feel safe knowing that the devs aren't going to unveil a surprise sequel where the Reapers annihilate the galaxy a century or two later....Shepard however, shouldn't feel anywhere near as secure with those two choices.

It also means you become the Reapers in your own way "Harvesting" synthetics before they reach a point where they "inevitably" go Skynet on the galaxy.  :angry:



#840
AlanC9

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Ah I never actually picked Refuse. I could never bring myself to do it. I just watched the video on youtube once and was cringing throughout the whole thing.


You should totally play it sometime. To RP the choice, it helps to have a dedicated FailShep with an appropriate tragic flaw. I went with a Shepard who was so dedicated to defeating the Reapers by any means necessary and so untrustful of anything they had to say that, in the end, she was blinded to the possibility that victory really was within her grasp.

#841
AlanC9

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It's really the only ending that guarantees the survival of humanity from an in universe perspective. Control and Synthesis only do so from the player's perspective. The player can feel safe knowing that the devs aren't going to unveil a surprise sequel where the Reapers annihilate the galaxy a century or two later....Shepard however, shouldn't feel anywhere near as secure with those two choices.


Of course, the Catalyst could have been right about everything, and in a milennium or two sufficiently advanced AIs overrun the galaxy and put an end to organics, or just lock them up on zoo planets. (I keep thinking about doing a mod with an alternate Stargazer scene.) Shepard not believing it doesn't make it impossible.

#842
AlanC9

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You just can´t cut content which is connected to core of the story, while Javik had not much of addition in meaning of core narrative of ME3, he was still part of last two previous games which were focused around the Reapers and Protheans, as a central plot flags of the story.


But wasn't it a central plot point of ME1 that the Protheans themselves weren't very important? Just the last in a long line of Reaper victims. A handful of scientists on Ilos were important, but their importance is expended by the end of ME1.

#843
Applepie_Svk

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But wasn't it a central plot point of ME1 that the Protheans themselves weren't very important? Just the last in a long line of Reaper victims. A handful of scientists on Ilos were important, but their importance is expended by the end of ME1.

 

ME1 - Protheans were believed to be the specie behind the technology till the Virmire, in the end they left us with chance by sabotaging Keepers and thus delayed Reaper´s arrival.

ME2 - Protheans were twisted into the Collectors, which was pretty much describing the outcome of our loss in the war.

 

From the lore perspecive, only few knew about Reapers, and council was keeping all information about Reapers strictly prohibited and even after the arrival had most of the population no internal knowlendge about the true origin(not the Prothean story) of mass effect technology, upon which we´ve advanced.

 

ME3 - Protheans left us plans for Crucible, technology capable of destroying the Reapers.

 

Despite the fact that they were the last victims of Reapers, yet they were our own source of many informations about Reapers and the cycle so they were closely tied with core narrative. Without their intervention would be cycle already in disarray.



#844
Iakus

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Of course, the Catalyst could have been right about everything, and in a milennium or two sufficiently advanced AIs overrun the galaxy and put an end to organics, or just lock them up on zoo planets. (I keep thinking about doing a mod with an alternate Stargazer scene.) Shepard not believing it doesn't make it impossible.

And the Catalyst believing it doesn't make it inevitable.



#845
Ahglock

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Which doesn't mean it's not a risk and won't happen. Still I'd think you could develop anti AI waves of doom if you have the catalyst plans. Just bug zap the Galaxy for pesky AI every 20 years or so.

#846
Iakus

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Which doesn't mean it's not a risk and won't happen. Still I'd think you could develop anti AI waves of doom if you have the catalyst plans. Just bug zap the Galaxy for pesky AI every 20 years or so.

 

Which...sounds an awful like what what the Reapers do to organics.

 

He Who Fights Monsters...



#847
Ahglock

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Which...sounds an awful like what what the Reapers do to organics.

He Who Fights Monsters...


That means something if you accept that AI are equal to organics or even truly alive. Though the theory would be to do it early enough that you don't have any ethical concerns.

#848
Han Shot First

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Of course, the Catalyst could have been right about everything, and in a milennium or two sufficiently advanced AIs overrun the galaxy and put an end to organics, or just lock them up on zoo planets. (I keep thinking about doing a mod with an alternate Stargazer scene.) Shepard not believing it doesn't make it impossible.

 

Sure, but that's much less of a gamble than keeping the Reapers around in any capacity. The Reapers have a proven track record of annihilating civilizations. The Council species developing rebellious synthetics at some point is purely theoretical, unlike the demonstrable risk the Reapers pose. The Reapers are also knee deep in an attempt to annihilate civilization at the time that Shepard has to make that choice, unlike say...the Geth or EDI.

 

Before ME:A was announced I planned to have an alts who chose Control or Synthesis just in case either choice could be imported into a sequel, but I couldn't complete those playthroughs because I struggled to justify why Shepard would ever choose them. It was a roleplay obstacle for me that I wasn't able to get beyond.



#849
Il Divo

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^ I think this also comes down to the Catalyst/Leviathan doing a poor job of really getting into why this cycle of Synthetic rebellion continues to occur without fail. I might have been able to take the Organic-Synthetic conflict somewhat seriously, if the narrative had made some effort to explain to Shepard why this is a problem. Maybe it is inevitable, but without an actual understanding of the parameters behind these events, we can't really know. 


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#850
kalikilic

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how about we get thru ME:A first, before we talk about THE END at ME 6