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[Ahglock]

^^^ when I'm not joking around about the endings my rational is pretty much the same. I don't have a roleplaying reason to buy that the reapers won't wipe us out down the line in either synthesis or control. They have done it thousands of times in a row. At best those get us a hundred year reprieve in my mind.

[Eryri]

^ I think this also comes down to the Catalyst/Leviathan doing a poor job of really getting into why this cycle of Synthetic rebellion continues to occur without fail. I might have been able to take the Organic-Synthetic conflict somewhat seriously, if the narrative had made some effort to explain to Shepard why this is a problem. Maybe it is inevitable, but without an actual understanding of the parameters behind these events, we can't really know.

Yes, this is one of the most frustrating parts. If all those ancient species that the Leviathan spoke of treated their synthetic servants as badly as the Quarians did the Geth, then it's hardly surprising that they wanted to rebel. What species wouldn't chafe against slavery, whatever they happen to be made of? The mysterious solution to the Catalyst's intractible 'problem' would therefore be "don't mistreat 'people' as things, and then be surprised when they get fed up and fight back". "Do unto others..." basically. I half want Shepard to be able to say "There you go Sport. Jesus Christ and Confucius solved your little problem for you a couple of millennia ago. You're welcome. Now please go away."

The other thematic problem that feeds into this comes from the other great story arc in ME3 - the curing of the genophage. We learn that the Krogans were essentially conscripted and treated as biological weapons against the Rachni. Then, when the Krogan started wanting more out of life than being tools of the council and rebelled, the council responded by tampering with their biology - thereby plunging an entire species into nihilistic despair. The most uplifting ending to this arc is (for me anyway) allowing Mordin to find redemption by returning the Krogan to their natural state. You could argue that the overall message of this arc is the same as for Rannoch- treating living things as means to an end, or obsessively trying to control them, or even mold them to better suit your will, leads to misery. Yet that's pretty much what Shepard can choose to do at the end.

It really does seem very discordant.

[Iakus]

Yes, this is one of the most frustrating parts. If all those ancient species that the Leviathan spoke of treated their synthetic servants as badly as the Quarians did the Geth, then it's hardly surprising that they wanted to rebel. What species wouldn't chafe against slavery, whatever they happen to be made of? The mysterious solution to the Catalyst's intractible 'problem' would therefore be "don't mistreat 'people' as things, and then be surprised when they get fed up and fight back". "Do unto others..." basically. I half want Shepard to be able to say "There you go Sport. Jesus Christ and Confucius solved your little problem for you a couple of millennia ago. You're welcome. Now please go away."
 

Not to mention the zha'til of the Protheans' time were subverted by the Reapers, as the geth were in the current one.  So the Reapers have actually had their thumbs (tentacles?) on the scale for at least two cycles in their attempts to justify their actions.

[DarthSliver]

Not to mention the zha'til of the Protheans' time were subverted by the Reapers, as the geth were in the current one.  So the Reapers have actually had their thumbs (tentacles?) on the scale for at least two cycles in their attempts to justify their actions.

Well Shepard gets done proving the Reapers wrong when the Geth and Quarians stop killing each other and Shepard gets them to make peace, finally working together in the end. Legion then uses the Reaper code and his code to give all Geth true sentient life, because the Geth only had true AI sentience when the more of them were hooked up together. In a sense of speaking the quarains were right about the Geth but they heavily relied on them so much that by the way the Quarians designed them to be turned them AI, just enough to finally meet sentience. 

 

But the point is Shepard proves the Reapers theory to be flawed by just that action alone in ME3. Broker of peace between Machine life and Organics turns the Reapers theory flawed. Its obvious that the Reaper AI did advance computing and with it having complete control of the Leviathan defenses, Leviathans are lucky their species lived throughout all the cycles. You don't give AI's control of your defense network than be surprised when they compute against you. 

[AlanC9]

Sure, but that's much less of a gamble than keeping the Reapers around in any capacity. The Reapers have a proven track record of annihilating civilizations.

I saw that as a proven track record of obeying commands, myself.

[prosthetic soul]

how about we get thru ME:A first, before we talk about THE END at ME 6

Wut?  ME 6?  Did I miss a memo or something? 

[Tetrabytes101]

There is no end,you can not defeat the creators its impossable.

[prosthetic soul]

There is no end,you can not defeat the creators its impossable.

Casey Hudson, you get BACK into the garage! 

[Cyberstrike nTo]

In a post-credit sting: A underling for a greedy bastard who has survived the events of the game reports to his/her boss, the boss says that while Ryder (or whatever the PC is called) is a great soldier that The Alliance/Council/Cerberus or a new group has the greatest soldier of all time and takes the underling to the secret chamber deep inside the ship that brings them to the Andromeda Galaxy and a cryo-status pod is there and the greedy bastard opens it and reveals that they bought none other than: Commander Shepard with them!

 

If done right this could be a really cool scene and would set the stage for ME5 and have Ryder trying to find out how Shepard is in Andromeda galaxy, what s/he's up to, and why s/he is working for their enemy. The answer is to how Shepard is there is that this is another clone and like the one in Citadel only this one has better troops than the one in Citadel did.       

[SentinelMacDeath]

The definition of insanity is doing something over and over again and expecting a different result.

 

That's exactly what the Reapers are doing for Maker knows how long at this point. Every single Reaper is 1 civilization gone and there are Reapers aplenty. They even speed up the process by leaving breadcrumbs. 

Synthesis just seems like another Reaper experiment and it's not worth the risk. Not to mention that with Synthesis all organic life is gone and the natural cycle of the entire galaxy ends. Not that great of an outcome.

[DarthSliver]

Honestly I know people don't like IT but its these debates that make IT in my opinion a plausible theory to uphold. The Star Kid is obviously Reaper controlled or if we take his word at face value is the Reaper mastermind. How can we trust his word when it comes to synthesis or control because those choices leave the Reapers alive. Destroy is the only choice the leaves the Reapers dead and that is what Shepard has been out trying to do since ME1, stop the Reapers. So with our knowledge of the Star Kid being a Reaper Mastermind how can we trust his choices, the simple answer is we can't but if we refuse to make a choice that will still leave the Reapers alive with them winning. So when it comes to picking Destroy as the only right answer we must look at it from the view that we forced the Reaper Mastermind to give us their demise but that doesn't stop the Reapers from distracting us so they can obtain total victory still. Basically I am saying that the other two options are Reaper manipulation so they can still win and survive, that is why the Extended Cut on the three options seems weird. 

 

Look at the choices the Starkid gives us as two false options with only one true choice in the three choices that were given to us, that is why IT is so popular and why it was so vocal to the point that Bioware removed the thread. That logic is why IT is still brought up in every topic that discusses the ending. We know the Reapers manipulate so why wouldn't they until the very end to save their own hide. But of course this all begs the question of why we're uplifted on the platform to even talk to the Starkid and I just don't have an answer for that sadly. I can only assume the Crucible forced the Reapers to give us a chance at winning but didn't stop them from trying to manipulate us from their destruction. 

[Bizantura]

I don't care less about the ending of ME:A but do care how/if they ancor ME trilogy logical/sensable with ME:A.

 

If its nothing but a reboot I don't care how they end ME:A, they can go as artsy and nonsensical as they want.  I will see it as a SF game without ties to the ME trilogy.

 

I have no doubt Andromeda will have a decent story/gameplay that I know Bioware is capable of producing.  In my hart I want it very much to be a sensable sequel to the ME trilogy but I fear it will be nothing more then the franchise name for promotional reasons only that will stay.  It also seems to me many players don't even mind a reboot and don't care about the disconnect so why should Bioware not take advantage of this.

 

Promotional  sale value regardless of content has been  embraced by the masses aswell as the advertisers it seems.  The last group I understand, the first group not so much!

[Applepie_Svk]

The definition of insanity is doing something over and over again and expecting a different result.

 

That's exactly what the Reapers are doing for Maker knows how long at this point. Every single Reaper is 1 civilization gone and there are Reapers aplenty. They even speed up the process by leaving breadcrumbs. 

Synthesis just seems like another Reaper experiment and it's not worth the risk. Not to mention that with Synthesis all organic life is gone and the natural cycle of the entire galaxy ends. Not that great of an outcome.

 

You know when you brought it up, it´s like that analogy that used Catalyst, that fire isn´t responsibile for being what it is. Yeah fire is not, but the person that set it can be batshitcrazy pyroman like Catalyst is...

 

However I think that Catalyst is different from Reapers and whole Crucible is rather another experiment, or part of  some bigger experiment.

[Han Shot First]

I saw that as a proven track record of obeying commands, myself.

 

Even if you pin the cycles of extinction entirely on the Catalyst, Synthesis leaves the Catalyst alive and in command of the Reapers. Control replaces it, but the replacement is just another version of a Skynet-like A.I. Both seem much larger gambles with the galaxy's future than Destroy.

 

I'm not sure however that the Reapers could be viewed as having no free will and thus absolved of any role in planning the extinction cycles, like say husks, because the Catalyst itself even says that it is joined with the Reapers into a kind of gestalt intelligence. Their minds aren't entirely separate entities. 

[Natureguy85]

Honestly I know people don't like IT but its these debates that make IT in my opinion a plausible theory to uphold. The Star Kid is obviously Reaper controlled or if we take his word at face value is the Reaper mastermind. How can we trust his word when it comes to synthesis or control because those choices leave the Reapers alive. Destroy is the only choice the leaves the Reapers dead and that is what Shepard has been out trying to do since ME1, stop the Reapers. So with our knowledge of the Star Kid being a Reaper Mastermind how can we trust his choices, the simple answer is we can't but if we refuse to make a choice that will still leave the Reapers alive with them winning. So when it comes to picking Destroy as the only right answer we must look at it from the view that we forced the Reaper Mastermind to give us their demise but that doesn't stop the Reapers from distracting us so they can obtain total victory still. Basically I am saying that the other two options are Reaper manipulation so they can still win and survive, that is why the Extended Cut on the three options seems weird. 

 

Look at the choices the Starkid gives us as two false options with only one true choice in the three choices that were given to us, that is why IT is so popular and why it was so vocal to the point that Bioware removed the thread. That logic is why IT is still brought up in every topic that discusses the ending. We know the Reapers manipulate so why wouldn't they until the very end to save their own hide. But of course this all begs the question of why we're uplifted on the platform to even talk to the Starkid and I just don't have an answer for that sadly. I can only assume the Crucible forced the Reapers to give us a chance at winning but didn't stop them from trying to manipulate us from their destruction. 

 

 

If you doubt the Catalyst on Control and Sythesis, why not Destroy? Shepard has no reason to trust a word that the Catalyst says. Why would shooting a tube destroy the Reapers? As MrBtongue asks, "Why am I shooting this tube?"

 

There is not really a good reason for there not to have been an Indoctrination plot in Mass Effect. However, the fact remains that there wasn't one. There are several things you can point to that seem like the seeds of one, but they don't come together to form a whole plot.

As for why the child raised Shepard, it's because the Crucible forced him to find a new solution and he needs Shepard to do something. This isn't explained well. The only good explanation is for Synthesis, but you need to have a high EMS for that to be an option.

[Tetrabytes101]

Wasnt the child holagram the boy who crashed in the space ship and he could of saved him so after that it was on his mind hense the creators felt that and used it to there advantage and to communicate.

[SentinelMacDeath]

Synthesis only makes the synthetics understand organics but turns organics into a synth hybrid .. organics understand each other and that never stopped them from killing each other so I do not have much faith in the "peace forever, peace for everyone" kind of ending the Synthesis promises. That still leaves me with my question .. do plants and the like change too? Animals? Everything with DNA? 

[Natureguy85]

Synthesis only makes the synthetics understand organics but turns organics into a synth hybrid .. organics understand each other and that never stopped them from killing each other so I do not have much faith in the "peace forever, peace for everyone" kind of ending the Synthesis promises. That still leaves me with my question .. do plants and the like change too? Animals? Everything with DNA? 

 

Yes. And not just DNA apparently. The plants on the planet the Normandy crashes on glow green but so do people's clothes.

[DarthSliver]

If you doubt the Catalyst on Control and Sythesis, why not Destroy? Shepard has no reason to trust a word that the Catalyst says. Why would shooting a tube destroy the Reapers? As MrBtongue asks, "Why am I shooting this tube?"

 

There is not really a good reason for there not to have been an Indoctrination plot in Mass Effect. However, the fact remains that there wasn't one. There are several things you can point to that seem like the seeds of one, but they don't come together to form a whole plot.

As for why the child raised Shepard, it's because the Crucible forced him to find a new solution and he needs Shepard to do something. This isn't explained well. The only good explanation is for Synthesis, but you need to have a high EMS for that to be an option.

 

Well I tried to present it as the Catalyst is a Reaper AI so it is trying to trick you, but the Cruicible has forced programmed it to give you the killswitch. It however doesn't stop it from giving you wrong solutions so the Reapers still win. All these ending debates could've been cleared up if the the Extend Cut actually did what it said it would do. 

 

The main issue with the ME3 ending is whoever wrote it, wrote the ending to sink Mass Effect series. Hence why the endings never got fixed because the whole sinking ME is all a theory in itself and can't be proven. Ending is written to be tons more closed than open for new installments. 

[ZipZap2000]

The original endings blah blah blah mandatory synthesis mention and.....what I don't want to happen is an inquisition style ending because they're afraid of another ME3 reaction. Which for some reason we're still talking about and criticising them for. So we probably will get an inquisition style ending.

We are why we cant have nice things.

[Natureguy85]

The original endings blah blah blah mandatory synthesis mention and.....what I don't want to happen is an inquisition style ending because they're afraid of another ME3 reaction. Which for some reason we're still talking about and criticising them for. So we probably will get an inquisition style ending.

We are why we cant have nice things.

 

We had Mass Effect and Dragon Age Origins. ME3 ending wasn't a nice thing. Of course neither were a lot of ME2, DA2, and ME3.

[DarthSliver]

The original endings blah blah blah mandatory synthesis mention and.....what I don't want to happen is an inquisition style ending because they're afraid of another ME3 reaction. Which for some reason we're still talking about and criticising them for. So we probably will get an inquisition style ending.

We are why we cant have nice things.

 

Well the thing about ME3 ending is instead of it taking all your choices to account to create an ending it throws them all in the garbage and makes you make a new choice for an ending. That is why I am disgunted about the ending, the whole point of the series thrown away in a matter of minutes for the end.  If thats not trying to end the series than I am not sure what is lol.

[AlanC9]

We had Mass Effect and Dragon Age Origins. ME3 ending wasn't a nice thing. Of course neither were a lot of ME2, DA2, and ME3.

Not a huge fan of the ME1 ending, myself. OTOH, Bio did retcon the human council away.

[AlanC9]

Well the thing about ME3 ending is instead of it taking all your choices to account to create an ending it throws them all in the garbage and makes you make a new choice for an ending. That is why I am disgunted about the ending, the whole point of the series thrown away in a matter of minutes for the end.  If thats not trying to end the series than I am not sure what is lol.

I'm not quite sure what "throws them all in the garbage" means. Your choices still determine the ending. If you exterminated the quarians, they stay dead, for instance.

[ZipZap2000]

Well the thing about ME3 ending is instead of it taking all your choices to account to create an ending it throws them all in the garbage and makes you make a new choice for an ending. That is why I am disgunted about the ending, the whole point of the series thrown away in a matter of minutes for the end. If thats not trying to end the series than I am not sure what is lol.

And I agree changing the story at the last minute to fit the ending doesn't even sound like a good idea.