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Let's talk about: THE END - your opinion please


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#1051
Dean_the_Young

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You may be right. Even if you escape from the definition of DEM as you're so desperate to do, it is still something they will have to address properly to keep it from being contrived.

 

I'm not sure how one can be desperate to escape the definition of a DEM if it does not, in fact, meat the definition of being a deus ex machina. It's like being desperate to escape being a bit pregnant. You either are, or are not.

 

'Contrived' is an equally meaningless term, except as a shorthand for 'something I don't like'. Which at least puts it in the same level of subjectivity as 'properly.' I suppose I should invite you to define that- does a history codex count? Would it require an investigate dialogue option for a lore dump? Or will it need to be forcibly raised as part of the core plot dialogue, whether or not it has any relevance to the plot?


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#1052
Dean_the_Young

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 We are still talking about centuries of travel.  We have seen that Reapers can operate for at least three years without a discharge, yes.  But we are still talking more than two hundred years travel (even using Reaper drives.  Double that for human/Council ships)  That's more than a few details.  The distance between the Milky Way and Andromeda is still orders of magnitude more distant that what we have seen the Reapers do.  And we do know that Reapers still build up a static charge, even if they don' have to discharge it as often.

 

It's only more than a few details if there's a relevant limit on Reaper drives and their ability to store/utilize drive buildup.

 

What's your source that there's a relevant limit on Reaper tech FTL?

 

 

 

Besides which, if the Reapers are so stupidly overpowered they can even cross galaxies, they'll have to justify why they aren't there as well.

 

What do you mean, 'if'? The Reapers had at least a billion years, and an unlimited mandate, with which to expand.

 

We've been faced with that question since ME1. It was simply irrelevant so long as we didn't leave the Milky Way.


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#1053
Giantdeathrobot

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Bioware is obviously running away from the ending as fast and far as they possibly can. I'll be surprised if they are ever even alluded to in Andromeda.

 

It's a bit of a soft reboot as I see it; while it's not in a new continuity, I strongly suspect the storyline will be so divorced from the original trilogy's that it might as well be a reboot for all intents and purposes. And given that ME3 ended terribly, that's not a bad thing at all if they can convincingly pull it off.


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#1054
Natureguy85

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I'm not sure how one can be desperate to escape the definition of a DEM if it does not, in fact, meat the definition of being a deus ex machina. It's like being desperate to escape being a bit pregnant. You either are, or are not.

 

'Contrived' is an equally meaningless term, except as a shorthand for 'something I don't like'. Which at least puts it in the same level of subjectivity as 'properly.' I suppose I should invite you to define that- does a history codex count? Would it require an investigate dialogue option for a lore dump? Or will it need to be forcibly raised as part of the core plot dialogue, whether or not it has any relevance to the plot?

 

Just noticing the focus on a minor issue inside a larger one, starting with a post that was completely wrong. However, you've been much better since as we're just unsure what role the move will have in the story.

 

For "contrived", you're making it meaningless by turning into "something I don't like" in order to diminish the point rather than deal with it. I like Mr. Btongue's definition: not arising naturally from the story. They have established lore about what is and is not possible in the Mass Effect universe. A journey to Andromeda is not possible using known technology, so they will have a lot of work to do in order to make it believable. "Properly" in this context may involve a few things, but they include exposition and lack of retcons. I won't like a "well, we're here so deal with it" answer.

 

As for a history codex entry, I'm honestly not sure on how I'd feel about it. Sitting here now, I don't think that would make me happy, but that would also depend on how far removed in time the new game is from the end of Mass Effect 3 and from the move. The more time that has passed, the more something like that could work alright. It could be that all they need to do is craft a really good introduction then. But I've been envisioning something like the start of Dragon Age 2, where it begins with the Hawke family leaving Ferelden during the Blight, connecting the new story to the events and world of the first one. In something like that, the move will indeed be part of the story, not just history.


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#1055
Lucca_de_Neon

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Just noticing the focus on a minor issue inside a larger one, starting with a post that was completely wrong. However, you've been much better since as we're just unsure what role the move will have in the story.

 

For "contrived", you're making it meaningless by turning into "something I don't like" in order to diminish the point rather than deal with it. I like Mr. Btongue's definition: not arising naturally from the story. They have established lore about what is and is not possible in the Mass Effect universe. A journey to Andromeda is not possible using known technology, so they will have a lot of work to do in order to make it believable. "Properly" in this context may involve a few things, but they include exposition and lack of retcons. I won't like a "well, we're here so deal with it" answer.

 

As for a history codex entry, I'm honestly not sure on how I'd feel about it. Sitting here now, I don't think that would make me happy, but that would also depend on how far removed in time the new game is from the end of Mass Effect 3 and from the move. The more time that has passed, the more something like that could work alright. It could be that all they need to do is craft a really good introduction then. But I've been envisioning something like the start of Dragon Age 2, where it begins with the Hawke family leaving Ferelden during the Blight, connecting the new story to the events and world of the first one. In something like that, the move will indeed be part of the story, not just history.

I've imagined the same start although it doesn't please me at all. On the other hand, i don't know how they could start at another point in the timeline with the baggage that is ME3. I do not consider myself picky but it is true that if all of a sudden we were capable of getting to Andromeda because the plot demands it, it would feel pretty weak



#1056
Kelwing

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Probably some giant RBG monster will need slaying.



#1057
Lucca_de_Neon

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Probably some giant RBG monster will need slaying.

I don't know about that. Perhaps it would be too gamey or something lol



#1058
Iakus

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Where do we know they build charge? Are you referring to the red, arcing "electricity" around Sovereign when he pulls away from Eden Prime? If so, you're probably right.

From the codex entry on Reapers:

 

Unlike Citadel ships, Reapers do not appear to discharge static buildup from their drive cores, although they sometimes appear wreathed in static discharge when they land on planets.

 

They still build up a static charge, they just don't seen to need to discharge it as often.


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#1059
Iakus

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It's only more than a few details if there's a relevant limit on Reaper drives and their ability to store/utilize drive buildup.

 

What's your source that there's a relevant limit on Reaper tech FTL?

 

The Reapers are not gods.

 

 

 

What do you mean, 'if'? The Reapers had at least a billion years, and an unlimited mandate, with which to expand.

We've been faced with that question since ME1. It was simply irrelevant so long as we didn't leave the Milky Way.

And now we are leaving the Milky Way.  Thus the stupidly overpowered nature of the Reapers has become relevant.

 

Do we really want to arrive at Andromeda only to find Reapers have been harvesting that galaxy too?


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#1060
Lucca_de_Neon

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Do we really want to arrive at Andromeda only to find Reapers have been harvesting that galaxy too?

Well, that would be a bummer!



#1061
Ahglock

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From the codex entry on Reapers:

Unlike Citadel ships, Reapers do not appear to discharge static buildup from their drive cores, although they sometimes appear wreathed in static discharge when they land on planets.

They still build up a static charge, they just don't seen to need to discharge it as often.


So you made up your own conclusion and then determined it to be canon. Maybe they build up any amount of charge with no damage to their systems they effectively keep the charge in the external hull or something. They discharge on planets not out of a need for safety but just through a natural route of conductivity.

Or what people are seeing isn't the static charge we are familiar with at all but a byproduct of a completely different drive.

#1062
Ahglock

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Well, that would be a bummer!


There are a ton of ways around this.

One a simple sure but it's on a cycle and it won't happen there for another 3 thousand years so it's a fully developed society and you have a lot more time to plan for this one.

Two it's a big universe and the reapers expanded in a different direction and never got to andromeda.

Three while capable of transit to other galaxies they interpreted their mandate as only protecting the Milky Way. We didn't get their programming code just a fairly general statement from the leviathan.
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#1063
9TailsFox

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There are a ton of ways around this.

One a simple sure but it's on a cycle and it won't happen there for another 3 thousand years so it's a fully developed society and you have a lot more time to plan for this one.

Two it's a big universe and the reapers expanded in a different direction and never got to andromeda.

Three while capable of transit to other galaxies they interpreted their mandate as only protecting the Milky Way. We didn't get their programming code just a fairly general statement from the leviathan.

Or Keth don't ever have problem with AI and kick reapers so hard they run back to dark space. Or what you say reapers care only for our galaxy.



#1064
Ahglock

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Or Keth don't ever have problem with AI and kick reapers so hard they run back to dark space. Or what you say reapers care only for our galaxy.

I kind of expect that one but I hope it's not so. Look an even more powerful race we need to dues ex a way to fix.

Basically don't power creep the bad guys if your writing skill wasn't up to the task of dealing with the power of the previous enemy.
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#1065
Lucca_de_Neon

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I kind of expect that one but I hope it's not so. Look an even more powerful race we need to dues ex a way to fix.

Basically don't power creep the bad guys if your writing skill wasn't up to the task of dealing with the power of the previous enemy.

I think i'll enjoy this conflict between civilizations a lot. No Reapers needed here, IMO. 


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#1066
9TailsFox

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I kind of expect that one but I hope it's not so. Look an even more powerful race we need to dues ex a way to fix.

Basically don't power creep the bad guys if your writing skill wasn't up to the task of dealing with the power of the previous enemy.

Technological advancement is not linear. Andromada aliens can just have some ship disabling system or other stuff witch is not much problem for us. But of course it don't mater we limited by our human mind So Andromeda have same humanoid aliens with technology perfect for humans.


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#1067
Dean_the_Young

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Just noticing the focus on a minor issue inside a larger one, starting with a post that was completely wrong. However, you've been much better since as we're just unsure what role the move will have in the story.

 

 

I'm flattered that I've improved since you accepted your misuse of words.

 

 

 

For "contrived", you're making it meaningless by turning into "something I don't like" in order to diminish the point rather than deal with it. I like Mr. Btongue's definition: not arising naturally from the story. They have established lore about what is and is not possible in the Mass Effect universe. A journey to Andromeda is not possible using known technology, so they will have a lot of work to do in order to make it believable. "Properly" in this context may involve a few things, but they include exposition and lack of retcons. I won't like a "well, we're here so deal with it" answer.

 

 

No, contrived is a meaningless term in this context because of the very context we're raising it in. Contrived means something deliberatly created rather than arrising naturally or spontaneously. Alternatively, it can mean something that seems artificial or unrealistic.

 

Congratulations- we're dealing with science fiction. Everything about fiction is deliberately created, and it's all artificial and unrealistic. All that's left is whether it whether it seems unrealistic- and that's a subjective call that really amounts to 'do I like or not,' because if you like it you won't be bothered enough to call it contrived. Contrivance is a subjective impression, and that's why it's a meaningless term- it's an attempt to claim objectivity to a gut feeling.

 

The established lore of the Mass Effect universe already answes the established limitations of the Mass Effect universe you refer to- namely, that Reaper tech can overcome the limiting factor of the drive buildup. With fabricators long-established since ME2 to handle precision parts, various suspension techs and long-term spacecraft concepts, AI's/VI's to run maintenance, and any number of government/corporate research groups that we know exist without knowing what they haven't done, there's very little that can't be answered by 'technology' without any retcon needed.

 

 

 

 

As for a history codex entry, I'm honestly not sure on how I'd feel about it. Sitting here now, I don't think that would make me happy, but that would also depend on how far removed in time the new game is from the end of Mass Effect 3 and from the move. The more time that has passed, the more something like that could work alright. It could be that all they need to do is craft a really good introduction then. But I've been envisioning something like the start of Dragon Age 2, where it begins with the Hawke family leaving Ferelden during the Blight, connecting the new story to the events and world of the first one. In something like that, the move will indeed be part of the story, not just history.

 

 

Why? Hawke's crossing of the Waking Sea didn't dwell on the means, the logistics, or anything else of how it happened. Even ignoring that this is a self-inflicted issue- the Pathfinder in no way needs to be have ever been alive in the Milky Way- DA2 demonstrated that handwaving the means of a journey worked. We had an authority figure offer a handwave solution, ignorred the rest, and the means were irrelevant to the rest of the story.

 

Really sounds like you're inventing a problem, but don't actually have a metric to solve it that couldn't also fail. Real helpful right there.



#1068
Dean_the_Young

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The Reapers are not gods.

 

 

They don't need to be. So I'll ask again-

 

 

What is your source that there is a relevant limit on Reaper tech FTL?

 

 

 

And now we are leaving the Milky Way.  Thus the stupidly overpowered nature of the Reapers has become relevant.

 

Do we really want to arrive at Andromeda only to find Reapers have been harvesting that galaxy too?

 

 

Why not? It would resolve two very significant issues, each far more important than getting to Andromedea itself- one, why the Reapers didn't over the past billion-odd years, and two, if the Reapers didn't, why there isn't a hyper-advanced and established civilization already owning the entire thing.

 

The Reapers not going to Andromedea is a bigger hole in the backstory then the already-supplied ability to pass the modern galaxy's FTL drive challenge- especially since getting to Andromedea isn't a technological issue, as much as a preperatory issue and how much time you are willing to spend going there, neither of which should in any ways be obstacles to the Reapers.


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#1069
Lucca_de_Neon

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What is a god? (let the games begin!) lol



#1070
Laughing_Man

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What is a god? (let the games begin!) lol

 

...

 

A fictional character. (Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead...)


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#1071
Hadeedak

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God is everything, good and bad. God is the great glory of this wide, wonderful universe around us, and the depths of each soul. 

 

Any time information is lost, it reduces our ability to know God. And that's why control is the best end.

 

:P



#1072
Lucca_de_Neon

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...

 

A fictional character. (Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead...)

You are a dear friend xd



#1073
Iakus

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They don't need to be. So I'll ask again-

 

 

What is your source that there is a relevant limit on Reaper tech FTL?

 

Define "relevant"

 

Everything has limits.  

 

 

 

Why not? It would resolve two very significant issues, each far more important than getting to Andromedea itself- one, why the Reapers didn't over the past billion-odd years, and two, if the Reapers didn't, why there isn't a hyper-advanced and established civilization already owning the entire thing.

The Reapers not going to Andromedea is a bigger hole in the backstory then the already-supplied ability to pass the modern galaxy's FTL drive challenge- especially since getting to Andromedea isn't a technological issue, as much as a preperatory issue and how much time you are willing to spend going there, neither of which should in any ways be obstacles to the Reapers.

You are right.  The Reapers not going to Andromeda if they are physically capable of doing so would be a huge plot hole  .

 

Now if we accept that Bioware is running as far and as fast as they can from Shepard's story and the endings, then logically speaking, the Reapers would not be there, and they would be a callback to them.  They are part of Shepard's story, and will be a reminder to the giant radioactive pile of varren dung that ruined the Milky Way (ie the endings)


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#1074
9TailsFox

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They don't need to be. So I'll ask again-

 

 

What is your source that there is a relevant limit on Reaper tech FTL?

 

 

Why not? It would resolve two very significant issues, each far more important than getting to Andromedea itself- one, why the Reapers didn't over the past billion-odd years, and two, if the Reapers didn't, why there isn't a hyper-advanced and established civilization already owning the entire thing.

 

The Reapers not going to Andromedea is a bigger hole in the backstory then the already-supplied ability to pass the modern galaxy's FTL drive challenge- especially since getting to Andromedea isn't a technological issue, as much as a preperatory issue and how much time you are willing to spend going there, neither of which should in any ways be obstacles to the Reapers.

wiki.

The exact FTL speeds at which starships of the modern galaxy travel are unknown. It is noted, however, that Reapers are believed to be capable of traveling nearly 30 light-years (283,821,914,177,424,000 meters) within a 24-hour period, and that this rate is roughly twice what Citadel starships are capable of traveling. This equates Reaper FTL capabilities to around 10,958 times the speed of light.

 

Andromeda is (2.5 million light-years) from Earth. So do math Reapers can go from earth to andromeda in 228 years lets be very optimistic and round thinks up 200 years.

 

So reapers can easy go to Andromeda. But why everyone forget reapers use citadel to basically teleport they fly on foot because shepard stopped this plan.

 

Ok now why not?

1) Reaper's was created to "preserve" life in our galaxy and don't care about rest of the universe.

2)Reapers are just to weak and in Andromeda one or more species are just to advance for reapers, some maybe not just immune to reapers indoctrination but can even control them. And so on and on.

 

Reapers not immortal they just giant spaceships with most advanced technology in our galaxy and don't let other species to get to advanced, even so Turians with stone and sticks still can, not just hold reapers but destroy some.



#1075
Natureguy85

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I've imagined the same start although it doesn't please me at all. On the other hand, i don't know how they could start at another point in the timeline with the baggage that is ME3. I do not consider myself picky but it is true that if all of a sudden we were capable of getting to Andromeda because the plot demands it, it would feel pretty weak

 

Yes, but unfortunately, it is what I am expecting.

 

 

So you made up your own conclusion and then determined it to be canon. Maybe they build up any amount of charge with no damage to their systems they effectively keep the charge in the external hull or something. They discharge on planets not out of a need for safety but just through a natural route of conductivity.

Or what people are seeing isn't the static charge we are familiar with at all but a byproduct of a completely different drive.

 

I have considered the idea that the Reapers have a way to hold and use the charge, like how the alternator in your car charges your battery.

 

 

There are a ton of ways around this.

One a simple sure but it's on a cycle and it won't happen there for another 3 thousand years so it's a fully developed society and you have a lot more time to plan for this one.

Two it's a big universe and the reapers expanded in a different direction and never got to andromeda.

Three while capable of transit to other galaxies they interpreted their mandate as only protecting the Milky Way. We didn't get their programming code just a fairly general statement from the leviathan.

 

Since Leviathan came out and explained their mandate, I've always viewed it as limited to the Milky Way because that is what the Leviathan's were interested in. They were interested in preserving organics only so those organics would serve them.

 

 

I'm flattered that I've improved since you accepted your misuse of words.

 

 

 

No, contrived is a meaningless term in this context because of the very context we're raising it in. Contrived means something deliberatly created rather than arrising naturally or spontaneously. Alternatively, it can mean something that seems artificial or unrealistic.

 

Congratulations- we're dealing with science fiction. Everything about fiction is deliberately created, and it's all artificial and unrealistic. All that's left is whether it whether it seems unrealistic- and that's a subjective call that really amounts to 'do I like or not,' because if you like it you won't be bothered enough to call it contrived. Contrivance is a subjective impression, and that's why it's a meaningless term- it's an attempt to claim objectivity to a gut feeling.

 

The established lore of the Mass Effect universe already answes the established limitations of the Mass Effect universe you refer to- namely, that Reaper tech can overcome the limiting factor of the drive buildup. With fabricators long-established since ME2 to handle precision parts, various suspension techs and long-term spacecraft concepts, AI's/VI's to run maintenance, and any number of government/corporate research groups that we know exist without knowing what they haven't done, there's very little that can't be answered by 'technology' without any retcon needed.

 

 

 

Why? Hawke's crossing of the Waking Sea didn't dwell on the means, the logistics, or anything else of how it happened. Even ignoring that this is a self-inflicted issue- the Pathfinder in no way needs to be have ever been alive in the Milky Way- DA2 demonstrated that handwaving the means of a journey worked. We had an authority figure offer a handwave solution, ignorred the rest, and the means were irrelevant to the rest of the story.

 

Really sounds like you're inventing a problem, but don't actually have a metric to solve it that couldn't also fail. Real helpful right there.

 

I didn't misuse words. How can you accuse me of misusing something you started with an incorrect definition of?

 

Yes, and here the path to Andromeda would be deliberately crafted just to get us there. It doesn't have to be realistic from our universe, but has to be realistic in the Mass Effect universe. A wormhole suddenly appearing would be artificial. We can roll with it because it's sci-fi and those things happen in space stories, but it's still a cheap way out when you've already established cool ways for your ships to get around. That's why I like the Conduit idea, though that probably needs more work than I laid out. Much like plot holes, it's not that whether or not something is contrived that is subjective as much as it is that how much it bothers you is subjective.

 

Interestingly, and playing into the problem of subjectivity you raise, part of the problem is caused by the title and the fact that it is known that we are going to Andromeda. This leaves us here wondering how this is possible. Had they simply started with the journey, even something like a wormhole suddenly appearing wouldn't have seemed as odd because it would seem like a natural event that took us to Andromeda rather than a solution to the problem of a predetermined setting change.

 

Hawke's travel isn't comparable in the least. Boats exist in the Dragon Age universe and they were traveling across the sea to another area of Thedas that we already know about and people from Ferelden travel to, or vice versa, regularly. Adding to the list of terms your don't understand, this is not a handwave. It's merely Varric telling us about it rather than us following Hawke do it. It fits entirely within what is known about the universe and does not require anything new or unknown. This is like if you were watching a movie and a character says they were going somewhere, then the film showed a map with an airplane moving and drawing a line to show the path, then the next scene showed them in the destination city. There is no plothole or hand wave, but merely a different, quicker way of showing that the trip happened. Ironically, your comment that the answer to Andromeda is just "technology" is the definition of a hand wave.

 

I'm not inventing the problem. The problem was created by the title, setting, and premise of the new game.

 

 

Why not? It would resolve two very significant issues, each far more important than getting to Andromedea itself- one, why the Reapers didn't over the past billion-odd years, and two, if the Reapers didn't, why there isn't a hyper-advanced and established civilization already owning the entire thing.

 

The Reapers not going to Andromedea is a bigger hole in the backstory then the already-supplied ability to pass the modern galaxy's FTL drive challenge- especially since getting to Andromedea isn't a technological issue, as much as a preperatory issue and how much time you are willing to spend going there, neither of which should in any ways be obstacles to the Reapers.

 

Why Reapers didn't go to Andromeda is only an issue if it were possible for them to do so, which only matters if "Reaper tech" is the answer to getting to Andromeda. As for why there isn't an all powerful Prothean-like empire ruling Andromeda, if there isn't, all you need are things we had in the Milky Way; either the most powerful race is like the Asari and focuses on collaboration and cooperation rather than domination or a galactic Tuchanka where everyone is constantly fighting and destroying for them to advance very much. There are other ways to do deal with that as well. Maybe a race like Tolkien's Ents that are so long lived that they do everything slowly and thus don't progress quickly. That would make an interesting contrast against short lived, get things done races like the Salarians and Humans.

 

 

 

...

 

A fictional character. (Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead...)

 

Says the servant of Tzeethch. Careful, lest he warp you into some twisted monstrosity!