29 réponses à ce sujet

[Hydwn]

So it occurs to me that we fought a god in the body of a dragon in Hakkon.  

 

While the theory that the Old Gods were either the Forgotten Ones or the Evanuris of Elven lore (in spite of Solas's skepticism that "no one has ever connected the old gods of Tevinter" with the elven gods), it seems to me like they were more like the Avvar gods than anything else.

 

Evidence is circumstantial, admittedly:

• The Hakkon-possessed dragon can talk and reason, and taunts the Inquisitor during the battle.  It is not simply an Avvar superstition like the stuff around Storvacker seems to be.  There is an intelligence and power in that dragons do not otherwise have.
• What others call "powerful spirits" the Avvar call "gods."  Any meaningful distinction seems impossible - perhaps we could have a corollary to Clarke's law, "Any sufficiently advanced spirit is indistinguishable from a god."
• Mages and magic can summon a spirit to possess a dragon and give it physical form.  This is dangerous, as Thane Sun-Hair tells us.  "The gods should stay in dreams where they belong."
• The Tevinter dragon-gods are in stasis, unable to live or die until corrupted, as Hakkon was.  The only difference is that the Old Gods remained conscious and aware and able to call to followers.  The powers used to trap them may have been different.

This has one major implication for Thedas, of course, because of what happens when an Avvar god dies.  Its followers pray and worship and remember, and a new spirit rises and becomes what the dead god was.  The Avvar are fine with this - Thane Sun-Hair says Hakkon is in need of "a good rebirthing."

 

We keep running into secret cults and altars of Dumat.  Could the Dragon of Silence be brought back the way Avvars will bring back Hakkon?

[Serza]

Hakky Wakky's just a powerful demon.

 

Ever since Origins, the most powerful demons could talk.

 

Hell, in the Circle Mage Origin, you encounter both Spirits and Demons who talk...

[Hydwn]

Hakky Wakky's just a powerful demon.

 

Ever since Origins, the most powerful demons could talk.

 

Hell, in the Circle Mage Origin, you encounter both Spirits and Demons who talk...

 

That was sort of my point.  Hakkon can talk because the dragon is possessed by a powerful spirit.  Maybe that's how the old gods were talking dragons as well.  

 

Calling them "gods" or "spirits" or "demons" seems to be a matter of cultural bias.  The three things are interchangeable in meaning when it comes to a being like Hakkon, and probably for the old gods as well.

[leaguer of one]

Hakky Wakky's just a powerful demon.

 

Ever since Origins, the most powerful demons could talk.

 

Hell, in the Circle Mage Origin, you encounter both Spirits and Demons who talk...

Not the same thing.  Powerful demon would do way more then what Haoon did. Also, their is no difference between demons and spirits out side of intent.

[Serza]

Well, Hakky could've been a demon of ... no, wait, Despair isn't quite that.

 

I'm not sure... but it's a Demon. I'm sure.

[The_Prophet_of_Donk]

It is a Demon of War and Ice!!!

All Hail the Donk!

[AntiChri5]

It's a demon of "Completely ****** Ruining Absolutely Bloody Everything For Ameridan".

 

An incredibly specific kind of demon, perhaps, but looking at the result it's hard to see it as anything else.

[Serza]

It is a Demon of War and Ice!!!

All Hail the Donk!

 

Thus Spake The Prophet!

[katerinafm]

Wouldn't be surprising. Tevinter mages use a lot more magic and contact demons with blood magic, so why not get basically the same type of 'gods' the Avvar get? Difference was that the Avvar seem to be so peaceful that the spirits they attract don't become evil and corrupted etcetc (Hakkon an exception obviously). Meanwhile the Tevinter gods/spirits became corrupted due to Tevinter being power hungry.

 

That is a good question though: We now know there are two types of 'gods': the powerful spirits praised as gods, and the Evanuris that were just powerful elf mages. So which of the two were the Tevinter gods? Did Tevinter 'steal' the elven gods and made their own version like they did with their magic techniques they stole from the elves and their version of the Black Divine?

[Hydwn]

That is a good question though: We now know there are two types of 'gods': the powerful spirits praised as gods, and the Evanuris that were just powerful elf mages. So which of the two were the Tevinter gods? Did Tevinter 'steal' the elven gods and made their own version like they did with their magic techniques they stole from the elves and their version of the Black Divine?

 

Either is possible, I guess, but my instincts would be that they were more like the Avvar spirit-gods.  Otherwise, they would be shapechanged humans that had simply progressed in magic.  

 

It also makes more sense from a narrative perspective to set something like that up using something that more cloely resembles it.  The Evanuris we've seen came in humanoid bodies - Mythal as Flemeth, Solas as an elf.  We've already seen one spirit-god dragon, so finding out the old gods were the same things would be less of a jump and feel less like a retcon.

 

Also, spirit-gods give them the freedom (under currently known rules) to bring back an old god that's been killed off for real.  Though Mythal probably survived ages before she found Flemeth, so it's likely possible for the Evanuris somehow too,

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I don't know if the old gods will be "brought back" like Hakkon eventually will be. (Although, like Wisdom in Solas' quest, even Hakkon isn't really being brought back, just something similar. The individual that was this Hakkon has been dispersed.)

 

But to recreate the concept of say, the spirit that is Dumat for example, you'd have to have a lot of people worshiping the same idea. I think Hessarian might have nipped this in the bud when he managed to basically abolish Old God worship. Are there still some secret cults around? I'm sure. Are they enough to make whatever may form from their worship intent as powerful as the Old Gods were back when they were worshiped openly by a whole empire? I doubt it. Doesn't mean that, if some spirit formed in response to their worship, it wouldn't be dangerous in its own right. But I don't think the Old Gods can be properly "rebirthed", assuming its even possible to do so, unless/until old god worship becomes widespread and open again. 

 

Side note: This conversation makes me think of Final Fantasy 14 and the Primals SO much. lol

[diaspora2k5]

A spirit of war and winter possessing a dragon. The idea of Dumat being a dragon being possessed by a spirit of Silence, Urthemiel a dragon possessed by a spirit representing beauty is as likely a theory as any.

[leaguer of one]

Well, Hakky could've been a demon of ... no, wait, Despair isn't quite that.

 

I'm not sure... but it's a Demon. I'm sure.

if anything he act like a spirit. One of Valor.

[Cute Nug]

It  all gets complicated. If the elven gods are locked away and they elves kept worshiping them does that create a second set of fade spirit "elfy gods" eventually  or does it only work for Avaar?

[Hydwn]

It  all gets complicated. If the elven gods are locked away and they elves kept worshiping them does that create a second set of fade spirit "elfy gods" eventually  or does it only work for Avaar?

 

I doubt things like that only work for the Avvar, and that is a really interesting twist.  Solas versus spirit Fen'Harel, Mythal-Flemeth meeting Mythal...

 

And how many Fen'Harels would there be?  The Dalish one would not look like the one the slaves loved long ago when Solas was freeing them.  

 

The details given in Jaws of Hakkon are vague, to say the least.  I wonder just what it takes to make a sympathetic spirit into a god.  There are mentions of rituals and sacrifice.  When an Avvar god dies, do all Avvar tribes participate in the "rebirthing" ?  What's the minimum scale for that transformation to take place?  

 

Presumably the elves could match that scale.  The question is, do they have to know their gods aren't around, and do they have to consciously recreate them from spirits?  Or can it be subtle, subconscious?  Can a spirit spontaneously decide to fill that role, as Cole decided to replace the human Cole?  Or does it need to be something bigger?  How necessary is the ritual and sacrifice part?

[Absafraginlootly]

It  all gets complicated. If the elven gods are locked away and they elves kept worshiping them does that create a second set of fade spirit "elfy gods" eventually  or does it only work for Avaar?

 

 

I doubt things like that only work for the Avvar, and that is a really interesting twist.  Solas versus spirit Fen'Harel, Mythal-Flemeth meeting Mythal...

 

And how many Fen'Harels would there be?  The Dalish one would not look like the one the slaves loved long ago when Solas was freeing them.  

 

The details given in Jaws of Hakkon are vague, to say the least.  I wonder just what it takes to make a sympathetic spirit into a god.  There are mentions of rituals and sacrifice.  When an Avvar god dies, do all Avvar tribes participate in the "rebirthing" ?  What's the minimum scale for that transformation to take place?  

 

Presumably the elves could match that scale.  The question is, do they have to know their gods aren't around, and do they have to consciously recreate them from spirits?  Or can it be subtle, subconscious?  Can a spirit spontaneously decide to fill that role, as Cole decided to replace the human Cole?  Or does it need to be something bigger?  How necessary is the ritual and sacrifice part?

 

I was under the impression that Hakkon was going to reform because that's what spirits do, not because he is worshiped. Solas's wisdom friend's energy will eventually reform into a new, but different wisdom spirit. Hakkon will eventually reform into a new Hakkon that lacks the old hakkons baggage and therefore his corruption. Hence why the Avvar think its good for a god to die every now and again. They also refer to all spirits as gods though some are considered more powerful/popular and get actual names.

 

I don't know whether the Evanaris's energy would reform or not, but if it does then they'd have to die/be destroyed first. I suppose a spirit might copy an evanuris in the way that Compassion copied Cole.

[Hydwn]

I was under the impression that Hakkon was going to reform because that's what spirits do, not because he is worshiped. Solas's wisdom friend's energy will eventually reform into a new, but different wisdom spirit. Hakkon will eventually reform into a new Hakkon that lacks the old hakkons baggage and therefore his corruption. Hence why the Avvar think its good for a god to die every now and again. They also refer to all spirits as gods though some are considered more powerful/popular and get actual names.

 

I don't know whether the Evanaris's energy would reform or not, but if it does then they'd have to die/be destroyed first. I suppose a spirit might copy an evanuris in the way that Compassion copied Cole.

 

Since memory and expectation are so important in the Fade and with spirits, I thought the ceremonies might shape the spirit.  Here are the two codices I was thinking of:

The veilfire ignites a complicated tangle of glyphs. There is an impression of mourning. Avvar from Stone-Bear Hold pray and sacrifice to the spirit destroyed in the last battle. There is the sensation of months passing. The prayers are not forgotten. The vision fades.

 

...

 

As the last group of glyphs light with veilfire, there is a sensation of excitement and anticipation. An Avvar hold celebrates a night festival around an altar piled high with food and drink. The thane begins a song. The hold joins in. The song grows louder and faster. It goes for hours.

 

As the sun rises, a blazing spirit appears above the altar. It has the name of the spirit that fell in battle. It is both the same spirit and a different one at the same time.

 

There is a ear-splitting roar of—triumph? Welcome? Something more?—from the gathered Avvar. The vision fades.

 

 

The "sacrifices" and the "not forgotten" part and the "months passing" part struck me as integral.  For Solas, a spirit of the same kind "may" rise eventually in the same location.  I figure that the sacrifices and the memory (memory probably being the most important) acts as a kind of vessel to hold the spirit, and a mould to better shape it.  It takes a process that can occur in nature (or at least Fade-nature) and refines and improves upon it to better rebirth the god.

 

And it was a copy I was thinking of.  There might be Fade-spirits - spirits of Faith most likely - enacting the roles of the Elven gods, blissfully unaware that the real evanuris are actually alive somewhere.  Such spirits would likely be based entirely on the Dalish versions.  It might could be darkly hilarious to see peaceful Sylaise-spirit meet vicious Sylaise-evanuris in the Fade...

[myahele]

It's more likely that the Old Gods might be shapeshifting Elves on the level of the Evanuris or maybe even greater.

[Feral'Hen]

So it occurs to me that we fought a god in the body of a dragon in Hakkon.  

 

While the theory that the Old Gods were either the Forgotten Ones or the Evanuris of Elven lore (in spite of Solas's skepticism that "no one has ever connected the old gods of Tevinter" with the elven gods), it seems to me like they were more like the Avvar gods than anything else.

 

Evidence is circumstantial, admittedly:

• The Hakkon-possessed dragon can talk and reason, and taunts the Inquisitor during the battle.  It is not simply an Avvar superstition like the stuff around Storvacker seems to be.  There is an intelligence and power in that dragons do not otherwise have.
• What others call "powerful spirits" the Avvar call "gods."  Any meaningful distinction seems impossible - perhaps we could have a corollary to Clarke's law, "Any sufficiently advanced spirit is indistinguishable from a god."
• Mages and magic can summon a spirit to possess a dragon and give it physical form.  This is dangerous, as Thane Sun-Hair tells us.  "The gods should stay in dreams where they belong."
• The Tevinter dragon-gods are in stasis, unable to live or die until corrupted, as Hakkon was.  The only difference is that the Old Gods remained conscious and aware and able to call to followers.  The powers used to trap them may have been different.

This has one major implication for Thedas, of course, because of what happens when an Avvar god dies.  Its followers pray and worship and remember, and a new spirit rises and becomes what the dead god was.  The Avvar are fine with this - Thane Sun-Hair says Hakkon is in need of "a good rebirthing."

 

We keep running into secret cults and altars of Dumat.  Could the Dragon of Silence be brought back the way Avvars will bring back Hakkon?

It looks like Hakkon was just a possessed dragon, nothing more. The Old Gods seem rather unique beings, bound between themselves and to The Taint for some unknown reason. What if they were once connected to Mythal? what if they still are?

 

Many dialogues and lore bits support this, but I don't want to derail this thread, so long story short:

- Flemeth held a whisp of Mythal within herself.

- Both Morrigan (after drinking from the well) and Flemeth were able to shapeshift into a dragon.

- The soul of a slain archdemon is attracted to the unborn child of a daughter of Mythal.

- Solas despises grey wardens and was horrified by the idea of killing all the Old Gods before they become Archdemons.

- Well of Sorrows (played backwards): "Mythal speaks the calling".

- Kieran (about Flemeth): "I heard her calling to me. She said now was the time".

- Solas/Cassandra (about the Red Lyrium Dragon):

• Solas: "It is connected to Corypheus. Such relationship goes beyond mere  control. It is a bond."
• Cassandra: "It makes you wonder if that's what all archdemons are: pets to  beings who no longer exist."
• Solas: "I would not go as far as that. This dragon is a replica, spawned from a  creature who aspires to greatness. No more."

- Well of Sorrows (played backwards): "Bound to the same".

- Corypheus assimilated the essence of his pet dragon when it died.

- Flemeth took Urthemiel's soul from Kieran and then assimilated it.

 

This connection would explain why are Old Gods still sleeping after all those centuries, and why the OGB is not that important plot wise, but who knows.

[dragondreamer]

Considering the ancient elves were manifested spirits that could shapeshift, including into dragon form, the distinction between the Old Gods as potentially sealed elven gods or spirits in dragon form becomes narrow.  The Old Gods could be dragon shifted elves, unable to wake from uthenera for unknown reasons (perhaps the Forgotten Ones' connection to the Blight), as some of them appear to be stuck that way. 

 

If the Forgotten Ones were allies with the Forbidden Ones (who appear to have been themselves once elves with a reason to hold a grudge against the Evanuris), then the links become more suspicious.  Human knowledge of blood magic has been attributed to both the Forbidden Ones and elves.  With what we know now, it would seem that both are likely true.  The guy who brought blood magic to Tevinter also introduced Old God worship.  Maybe the Forbidden Ones were helping their old buddies the Forgotten Ones to break out of their cages.  Imshael appears to know a lot about the Blight, and this isn't normal, even for demons.  The Blight and Void is supposed to be something alien and unknown to demons and spirits.  Perhaps not so much for someone associated with the Forgotten Ones.

 

If the creation of the veil sundered the Void from the world as well as the Fade, that may have trapped the Forgotten Ones' spiritually in the Void, while their dragon bodies remained sleeping in the earth.  Those in uthenera when the veil went up may have been left unable to die, unable to wake, in a limbo state.  (The Dalish legend is that Fen'Harel convinced both pantheons of elven gods to go to their respective domains where he imprisoned them...maybe the trick was that he somehow convinced them both to go into uthenera before springing his trap.  In their places of greatest power, the Fade and the Void, they had no reason to believe they would be vulnerable there.)  Perhaps Blight infection is the only way for them to reconnect and wake up again.  The magisters who entered the Black City may not have reconnected the Void with the real world, but they reintroduced the Blight as a backdoor connection.

 

I'll be lucky if I typed that and didn't get the Forgotten Ones and Forbidden Ones mixed up.

[TeffexPope]

For all we know, the Tevinter gods are magisters who became supremely powerful beings like the ancient elves were, then manipulated time magic and whispered into the minds of humans in the past.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I'm increasingly coming to the view that there actually are no gods (in the common sense of the word) and that all the so-called "gods" are either mortals who achieved incredible power/immortality or simply spirits of the fade who, for various reasons, took on the role of deity figures to mortals. I can't help wonder if the idea at the centre of it all is that where no gods exist, mortals will create something to believe in to give meaning to their existence and will cling to their beliefs even when confronted with evidence to the contrary.

[Hydwn]

It's more likely that the Old Gods might be shapeshifting Elves on the level of the Evanuris or maybe even greater.

 

The serious problem I would have with that theory is that the Imperium of the Old Gods was so vicious to elves.  I suppose ancient elves like Solas don't see modern elves as their kind, and assimilationist elves like Sera don't like to be lumped in with other elves, but it still seems odd for them to have turned to humans to turn on elves, rather than turn to elves.

 

There is the frequent theory that the Old Gods were either the evanuris or the Forgotten Ones.  Both are possible, but Solas seemns skeptical when the topic comes up, and I suppose he would know.

 

Of anything we've encountered, Hakkon is the most like the old gods, and most clearly resembles them, so he seems more like a Chekov's gun than Elven shapechanging.

[Hydwn]

 

It looks like Hakkon was just a possessed dragon, nothing more. The Old Gods seem rather unique beings, bound between themselves and to The Taint for some unknown reason. What if they were once connected to Mythal? what if they still are?

 

Many dialogues and lore bits support this, but I don't want to derail this thread, so long story short:

- Flemeth held a whisp of Mythal within herself.

- Both Morrigan (after drinking from the well) and Flemeth were able to shapeshift into a dragon.

- The soul of a slain archdemon is attracted to the unborn child of a daughter of Mythal.

- Solas despises grey wardens and was horrified by the idea of killing all the Old Gods before they become Archdemons.

- Well of Sorrows (played backwards): "Mythal speaks the calling".

- Kieran (about Flemeth): "I heard her calling to me. She said now was the time".

- Solas/Cassandra (about the Red Lyrium Dragon):

• Solas: "It is connected to Corypheus. Such relationship goes beyond mere  control. It is a bond."
• Cassandra: "It makes you wonder if that's what all archdemons are: pets to  beings who no longer exist."
• Solas: "I would not go as far as that. This dragon is a replica, spawned from a  creature who aspires to greatness. No more."

- Well of Sorrows (played backwards): "Bound to the same".

- Corypheus assimilated the essence of his pet dragon when it died.

- Flemeth took Urthemiel's soul from Kieran and then assimilated it.

 

This connection would explain why are Old Gods still sleeping after all those centuries, and why the OGB is not that important plot wise, but who knows.

 

 

Good points, all.  There does seem to be a connection of some kind.  Still, Solas's skepticism stands out.  If he did not see a connection between the two, it might imply that any connection was forged later, after the Old Gods already existed.

 

An alternate interpretation might be that Mythal noticed the Old Gods, and figured they would be a good instrument of revenge.  She may indeed been the one to create the calling as part of that revenge.  Maybe the Old Gods aren't calling to the Darkspawn at all - maybe she's tricking them.  Maybe she just wanted Urthmiel's power in Kieran to shore up her own weakened power toward that end.

 

Most of the points you bring up would still be valid, after all, if Mythal had discovered a tool she could use, rather than inventing it herself.

 

As for Solas's worry about killing the Old Gods, I figured it  was the same as the Architect's - he says that without Old Gods to keep them under the ground, the Darkspawn would come up to the surface, and it would be a permanent blight.

[Hydwn]

I'm increasingly coming to the view that there actually are no gods (in the common sense of the word) and that all the so-called "gods" are either mortals who achieved incredible power/immortality or simply spirits of the fade who, for various reasons, took on the role of deity figures to mortals. I can't help wonder if the idea at the centre of it all is that where no gods exist, mortals will create something to believe in to give meaning to their existence and will cling to their beliefs even when confronted with evidence to the contrary.

 

Good point, though unless they've changed one of their founding premises - "We'll never confirm or deny the existence of the Maker" - then the Maker is going to be the last one standing as a (potential) deity.  Stripping away the godhood of the others and leaving the Maker intact seems like the lore is slowly aligning with the Chantry's version of things (at least in the larger picture) rather than making a case for no gods.

 

That makes me sad.  I actually liked the Elven pantheon better than the Chantry, and for as good a story as it makes, I do wish that they had let the elves keep their gods.