197 réponses à ce sujet

[Artemis_Entrari]

Sure, we had shitload of quests in Inquisition, but 99% of them were taken from some crappy mmo. If lack of cutscenes in ME:A will result in having more fetch quests in game, then I'll pass. I prefer to have less side quests, but with some story line, not fetching some crap to a random person.

 

Yeah, I'm not quite sure what the OP is trying to say -- a little confusing with his/her wording -- but if he/she is asking for DAI-like side quests, no thanks.  DAI's sidequests were the worst part of the game, by far.

 

In other words, do ME:A's sidequests like ME1 or ME2, not DAI.

[Chealec]

....
After Geralt spent all that time trying to find Ciri, he finally gets to her....as she lies lifeless and cold.

...

 

Unlike ME3 though, there is a happy ending alternative - and it's not done through a single RGB choice; how you treat Ciri throughout the game determines whether she survives or not.

 

I got the happy ending.

[Sylvius the Mad]

True,
But wouldn't you agree that in a situation such as the fall of Thessia, for example, it's a safe bet that the emotions at that time are universal?

No.

 

What emotion do you expect to be universal at the fall of Thessia?  I was indifferent to it, because I have no affection for the Asari.  My Shepard thought the Asari had brought their destruction on themselves by hiding the Prothean tech.

Would anyone say "oh, my Shep was overly excited and happy about it!" ?

Not relevant.  The point is that is that not every Shepard would react identically.

There are times within the story,
The player has no-say in the protag's emotions.

That's never acceptable.

Sure,
We make decisions within the game's story, but the story is already written.

If it were, we wouldn't get to make decisions.

 

The entire universe can change with every playthrough.

 

Moreover, if we don't control Shepard's state of mind, how are we supposed to make decisions for her?  What basis could we possibly have for doing so?  How could we know why she is doing that thing?

 

What you describe is an entirely passive enterprise that bears no resemblance to roleplaying.  It becomes choosing the path through a story just because we want to see what happens there.  That's not interesting gameplay.  That's tedious, and I don't want to do it.

 

And yes, that does seem to be what the designers of ME2 and ME3 wanted us to do.  Which is why I didn't like ME2 or ME3.  I thought both games were awful.

[Sylvius the Mad]

But you're arguing against the Dev's story.

I deny that the devs' story exists.  I deny that any story exists until after I play.  And when I play again, a different story gets written.

 

Every time.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'm actually referring to RPG's as well.
(Pretty much any story driven game.) And this is just it^, in order for a dev to include every possible reaction, emotion, intention, etc etc from every gamer is unrealistic. Which is in essence what you're asking.

A Set protag or not is irrelevant.
We play within parameters set by the dev.
Does anyone [i]really[i] think they do anything so different from every other player?

Vastly.
 
 

For example,
Cure Genophage or not, we all made one choice or the other.
I'm sure there are odd people out there that wanted their Shep to feel happy and perform cartwheels after killing Mordin. But how well does that fit within the story?
(Not to mention its excessive to think BW would include it.)
You can head cannon all you like, that's fine and normal IMO.
But there are times in the game that require a fixed response to keep the story/character cohesive. Enter the cutscene.
Sure,
It would be remarkable if we, as the gamer, were actually able to create the story as we play, but that's not realistic.
(Stare at a blank screen and make-up a story?)
And I understand and for the most part, agree that at times we [i]should[i] be able to control our protag's reaction to events.
Some Dev's pull this off better than others obviously.
Of course all of this is academic since it has not to do with side quests directly so I'm off topic again.

You're focusing on the big choices for which BioWare actually crafted reactions.  What about the others?
 
Why does your Shepard use the specific weapon he does?  What is his opinion of Aria?  Does he work with the gangs gleefully, or with reluctance?  Does subverting CSEC being him joy, or sadness?  And yes, with Mordin - why shouldn't Shepard celebrate his death?  He's arguably a war criminal.  He was an accessory to genocide.  In the real world, we do see people celebrate the death of such villains.
 
My Shepard, however, doesn't agree with the concept of war crimes.  She doesn't think it makes sense to have rules in war.  So naturally that informs her reactions to things.  Or at least it should.

Edit;
And of course,
Let us not forget the one thing a cutscene will always perform better than gameplay (yes, always.).
Dem feels.
There have been several games that actually choked me up, but remove the CS and do it with gameplay and it has nowhere near the same impact.
Let's take W3 for example, Elhanan I know you're going to be lost on this one so I apologize.
And slight W3 spoiler ahead!

But,
After Geralt spent all that time trying to find Ciri, he finally gets to her....as she lies lifeless and cold.
Talk about dem feels sheesh!
Now remove the cutscene and perform the same scene with gameplay...yeah, epic fail.
it has nowhere near the same impact.

The game should not be trying to affect me emotionally.  I don't even see how it could.  The events in-game happen to my character, not to me.  My character might have an emotional reaction, but I (intellectually) get to decide what that reaction is.

[Sylvius the Mad]

You don't seem to want to invest any effort in defining or role-playing a unique character, but to simply plod through a pre-designed entertainment experience.

If I want a pre-designed entertainment experience, I read a novel, because novels are way better at that.

 

If I play a roleplaying game, it is because I want to roleplay.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I have played many, enough that I wouldn't want to put a number on it . I remember when there were no such thing as CS's.
I typically had no emotional response because my character didn't emote. Or very little response.
Edit;
Are you referring to that outdated "non-interactive, non-responsive, wandering, reluctant hero" circa FO style protag? Yeah it's way outdated.

My definition of RPGs includes tabletop RPGs.  The way I want to play my character doesn't change based on the medium.

[ZombiePopper]

Well,
Sylvius,
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I hope you get a toggle in future games. I want CS's and you do not.

[Keitaro57]

To Sylvius :

In fact, what you don't like in game with cinematics is something else : it is the auto-dialog. If you had the choices between different emotions at each dialog, it would be great!

 

[Elhanan]

To Sylvius :
In fact, what you don't like in game with cinematics is something else : it is the auto-dialog. If you had the choices between different emotions at each dialog, it would be great!

More Player control over dialogue choices is great, as in DAI. However, frequent lengthy cut-scenes also eliminates other forms of gameplay, and should only be used during the Main and Companion quests as a rule, IMO.

As for Sylvius, am rather certain that he still prefers a silent PC, but will bow out of that argument myself.

[Chealec]

The game should not be trying to affect me emotionally.  I don't even see how it could.  The events in-game happen to my character, not to me.  My character might have an emotional reaction, but I (intellectually) get to decide what that reaction is.

 

You really felt nothing when Mordin died? You didn't laugh when Grunt "fell" out of the hospital window in the Citadel DLC?

[Elhanan]

You really felt nothing when Mordin died? You didn't laugh when Grunt "fell" out of the hospital window in the Citadel DLC?

Those are not his character; Shepard.

[Sylvius the Mad]

You really felt nothing when Mordin died? You didn't laugh when Grunt "fell" out of the hospital window in the Citadel DLC?

I didn't play the DLC. I didn't like the game; I certainly wasn't going to buy DLC for it.

But whatever reaction I might have has no bearing on how my character feels. We are two distinct entities.

[Sylvius the Mad]

To Sylvius :
In fact, what you don't like in game with cinematics is something else : it is the auto-dialog. If you had the choices between different emotions at each dialog, it would be great!

Yes, obviously if the voiced protagonist had all of the strengths of the silent protagonist, I would like it more.

When a voiced protagonist lets me assign tone and intent independently from each other, and do so in any combination with the dialogue options (which I need to see in their entirety), only then I will consider it equivalent to the silent protagonist.

[Pasquale1234]

Ah okay,
I'm starting to pick-up what you're putting down.
I'll admit that you're right,
I do not go that deep into my RP'ing. I guess I'm more...superficial? Lack of a better word. But it really depends on the game for me.

Then I'm glad I made the effort to interact with you. Sometimes discussions can promote understanding.
 

My last DAI PT,
<snip - I didn't play DAI, so don't really relate>
That's about as deep as I get. The motivation and intent.

Well - that's a start.

One of the reasons I hate forced linearity in games is that it doesn't allow my character to act according to her needs, beliefs, values, priorities. Instead of my character getting to decide what she'll do next, the devs force their agenda, which tends to be telling their story their way. I think we've already established the idea that I prefer to allow my character to create her own story.

I'm also not fond of forced linearity as a player. When I was playing ME2, I remember spending the entire day looking forward to a couple of particular quests I wanted to do during my playtime that evening - and once I got there and loaded up the game, I was forced into a Collector quest instead. The entire structure of ME2 & 3 is the devs meting out content bit by bit. Cripe, ME3 goes so far as to withhold major segments of the galaxy map until you reach a certain point in their story agenda - and they pile cutscenes pretty high in some places - and don't even allow you to save between them. Pick the wrong response in one of them? You have to play through to the end of the pile to regain menu access, reload, and play through all of them again. I don't believe I've ever played another game that so restricted player agency.
 

Anywho,
Do CS's actually prevent you from RP'ing the way you want?????

That depends on the game. I was able to role-play in DAO and ME, but have not been able to in the sequels. DA2's Hawke, ME2 & 3's Shepard may as well be NPCs for as much control as I have over them. They were designed to be the protagonist in the story Bioware wanted to tell; not characters suited for role-play.
 

But yeah,
you get dEEp in to your RP'ing . So while we're playing the same game, it's almost different for you. Do you get that elaborate for every PT????

For me, it's a matter of creating a character concept, and then putting her in that world - with its lore, its conflicts, its NPCs, its whatever there is to do there - and seeing what she does. And what she does may or may not have much to do with any story the devs want to tell.

You'd think I'd be thrilled by the Fallout 4 announcement, but there are a couple of things about it that leave me uncertain. One is the fact that they voiced the PC, which will limit role-play. The other is the premise that the PC was married to an opposite-sex partner with whom they had a child - which also restricts the sort of character you can play. I might be able to head-canon around that premise, but am somewhat concerned that the loss of the opposite-sex spouse and child will come up repeatedly throughout the game. So - I'm putting it in hold until I learn more about it.

[Chealec]

I didn't play the DLC. I didn't like the game; I certainly wasn't going to buy DLC for it.

But whatever reaction I might have has no bearing on how my character feels. We are two distinct entities.

 

Well yes ... but surely a comedic moment in a game will still make you laugh irrespective as to how the PC responds (or is supposed to), that's still the game making you "feel" something, in the same way that watching a movie makes you feel something? How is that something that a game is not supposed to do?

 

I laughed a little when I pressed the big red button in Wasteland 2, killed everyone and brought up the end-game credits because I wasn't expecting it to actually do that... the character didn't do much really, apart from vaporise.

[Majestic Jazz]

And one still has the option to do so; skip all but the Main story. However, as one that utilizes sub-titles anyway, and has currently spent 1100+ hrs in gameplay, I have found it better for me to explore and discover more rather than less in the way of content.

Cut-scenes are not required for a memorable experience. See Books....

Lol

[ZombiePopper]

Then I'm glad I made the effort to interact with you. Sometimes discussions can promote understanding.


Well - that's a start.

One of the reasons I hate forced linearity in games is that it doesn't allow my character to act according to her needs, beliefs, values, priorities. Instead of my character getting to decide what she'll do next, the devs force their agenda, which tends to be telling their story their way. I think we've already established the idea that I prefer to allow my character to create her own story.

I'm also not fond of forced linearity as a player. When I was playing ME2, I remember spending the entire day looking forward to a couple of particular quests I wanted to do during my playtime that evening - and once I got there and loaded up the game, I was forced into a Collector quest instead. The entire structure of ME2 & 3 is the devs meting out content bit by bit. Cripe, ME3 goes so far as to withhold major segments of the galaxy map until you reach a certain point in their story agenda - and they pile cutscenes pretty high in some places - and don't even allow you to save between them. Pick the wrong response in one of them? You have to play through to the end of the pile to regain menu access, reload, and play through all of them again. I don't believe I've ever played another game that so restricted player agency.


That depends on the game. I was able to role-play in DAO and ME, but have not been able to in the sequels. DA2's Hawke, ME2 & 3's Shepard may as well be NPCs for as much control as I have over them. They were designed to be the protagonist in the story Bioware wanted to tell; not characters suited for role-play.


For me, it's a matter of creating a character concept, and then putting her in that world - with its lore, its conflicts, its NPCs, its whatever there is to do there - and seeing what she does. And what she does may or may not have much to do with any story the devs want to tell.

You'd think I'd be thrilled by the Fallout 4 announcement, but there are a couple of things about it that leave me uncertain. One is the fact that they voiced the PC, which will limit role-play. The other is the premise that the PC was married to an opposite-sex partner with whom they had a child - which also restricts the sort of character you can play. I might be able to head-canon around that premise, but am somewhat concerned that the loss of the opposite-sex spouse and child will come up repeatedly throughout the game. So - I'm putting it in hold until I learn more about it.

I am as well. I usually try to go into a discussion with an open mind and try to see other's points of views on matters.
I appreciate the discussion because I do have a better understanding now.

I can see how those certain set factors could be difficult for your RP'ing style. I am a FO fan as well and I know many were not happy when Bethesda announced that the protag has a voice.

[ZombiePopper]

Unlike ME3 though, there is a happy ending alternative - and it's not done through a single RGB choice; how you treat Ciri throughout the game determines whether she survives or not.

I got the happy ending.

I was actually referring to When Geralt first finds Ciri on the isle of mist.
I think the majority of gamers felt something at that moment.
I actually felt like there were 2 "good" endings. 1 was more bittersweet though.
Do you have Ciri become empress or fem-witcher?

[Sylvius the Mad]

I am a FO fan as well and I know many were not happy when Bethesda announced that the protag has a voice.

Being a Bethesda game, we'll probably be able to mod out the voice, so I'm not too worried.

[Pasquale1234]

Being a Bethesda game, we'll probably be able to mod out the voice, so I'm not too worried.

That might actually be the impetus that gets me to convert to the mustard race.

[Sylvius the Mad]

That might actually be the impetus that gets me to convert to the mustard race.

I have no idea what that means.

[Pasquale1234]

I have no idea what that means.

Sorry.

I do most of my gaming on console. Mustard race is slang for PC Master Race.

So - I'm saying that access to features I would like (mods) for FO4 might be the thing that gets me to start playing more on PC instead of console.

[Chealec]

I was actually referring to When Geralt first finds Ciri on the isle of mist.
I think the majority of gamers felt something at that moment.
I actually felt like there were 2 "good" endings. 1 was more bittersweet though.
Do you have Ciri become empress or fem-witcher?

 

Fem-witcher the first time through - on my second play-through now; first time was from a side-with-Iorveth import from ME2, this time it's a side-with-Roche import... and there's the Hearts of Stone expansion now, which I've not played yet.

[ZombiePopper]

That might actually be the impetus that gets me to convert to the mustard race.

Noooooo we can't lose another to the "master race".
For my gaming I'm okay with a voiced PC in FO4, for me it's seems like the natural progression. But as I said I can understand how it impedes your RP'ing.

Fem-witcher the first time through - on my second play-through now; first time was from a side-with-Iorveth import from ME2, this time it's a side-with-Roche import... and there's the Hearts of Stone expansion now, which I've not played yet.

I actually did it the reverse of your PT's.
I'm excited about the HoS ex I haven't played it yet either but I've heard it's well done.
Okay, gotta ask; Triss or Yen?